CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling

pedro118118

Surely, one must come to the only sensible conclusion; that the credibility of the Tories (and, by default, the Members of the CMS) is in tatters – they are in a terrible position...

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

I suggest abolishing UK Sport and sending the money to Sport England/Wales/Scotland/NI.

I'm not sure I'd be handing out the money to Sport Wales!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39267950
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38968716

Although as the CEO is and ex-hockey player whose sister plays for my club, I can see an upside

blazing_saddles

pedro118118 wrote:

Surely, one must come to the only sensible conclusion; that the credibility of the Tories (and, by default, the Members of the CMS) is in tatters – they are in a terrible position...

He's been sounding off again.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sk ... n-says-mp/

So, presumably Mr Collins thinks Theresa May should also step down, given even worse administration mistakes were made at Tory HQ? :roll:

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

Surely, one must come to the only sensible conclusion; that the credibility of the Tories (and, by default, the Members of the CMS) is in tatters – they are in a terrible position...

He's been sounding off again.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sk ... n-says-mp/

So, presumably Mr Collins thinks Theresa May should also step down, given even worse administration mistakes were made at Tory HQ? :roll:

Collins says that he can't understand why Fluimicil couldn't have been bought locally. Well the same question would still be relevant for his favoured theory of triamcinolone. Both drugs can be bought at the same pharmacy.

Rodrego Hernandez

Blazing Saddles wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

Surely, one must come to the only sensible conclusion; that the credibility of the Tories (and, by default, the Members of the CMS) is in tatters – they are in a terrible position...

He's been sounding off again.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sk ... n-says-mp/

So, presumably Mr Collins thinks Theresa May should also step down, given even worse administration mistakes were made at Tory HQ? :roll:

Why do you think that the two things should be linked?

DeVlaeminck

Pross wrote:

But a large part of the growth in participation is due to seeing the Olympic success. Cyclocross and MTB are the disciplines with the highest participation at my club by a long way at all age groups but particularly among the kids and the focus point of virtually all the coaching sessions we provide (despite being called a road club). However, as I said earlier, we had massive upsurges in new members after both the London and Rio Olympics which account for most of those participating in Cross and MTB now. So although the funding is mainly focussed towards the track programme at an elite level I would argue it affects participation levels in all disciplines. Funding cuts would hit the whole sport and Vino's glee at the possibility to me demonstrates that his true colours are seeing British Cycling (and possibly Sky by proxy) being damaged.

It'd be interesting to know just how much olympic success led to increased participation. My feeling is it contributed but that it wasn't a major driver - research suggests London as a whole didn't lead to increased participation in sport so I can't see why cycling in particular should have benefited but it is a hunch so I accept I may be wrong.

Locally we have a velodrome now which I believe BC funding contributed to and that has certainly driven participation though the big upsurge predates it.

There was something to be said for cycling being niche - pre boom it did feel slightly different to be a road cyclist - a bit more exotic whereas now everyone just thinks you are a mamil going through a mid life crisis - probably true though I suppose.

Vino'sGhost

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pross wrote:

But a large part of the growth in participation is due to seeing the Olympic success. Cyclocross and MTB are the disciplines with the highest participation at my club by a long way at all age groups but particularly among the kids and the focus point of virtually all the coaching sessions we provide (despite being called a road club). However, as I said earlier, we had massive upsurges in new members after both the London and Rio Olympics which account for most of those participating in Cross and MTB now. So although the funding is mainly focussed towards the track programme at an elite level I would argue it affects participation levels in all disciplines. Funding cuts would hit the whole sport and Vino's glee at the possibility to me demonstrates that his true colours are seeing British Cycling (and possibly Sky by proxy) being damaged.

It'd be interesting to know just how much olympic success led to increased participation. My feeling is it contributed but that it wasn't a major driver - research suggests London as a whole didn't lead to increased participation in sport so I can't see why cycling in particular should have benefited but it is a hunch so I accept I may be wrong.

Locally we have a velodrome now which I believe BC funding contributed to and that has certainly driven participation though the big upsurge predates it.

There was something to be said for cycling being niche - pre boom it did feel slightly different to be a road cyclist - a bit more exotic whereas now everyone just thinks you are a mamil going through a mid life crisis - probably true though I suppose.

Before it became popular I was more exotic, now its some years on and is more popular. Im also a mamil now

Stridor

RichN95 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

Surely, one must come to the only sensible conclusion; that the credibility of the Tories (and, by default, the Members of the CMS) is in tatters – they are in a terrible position...

He's been sounding off again.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sk ... n-says-mp/

So, presumably Mr Collins thinks Theresa May should also step down, given even worse administration mistakes were made at Tory HQ? :roll:

Collins says that he can't understand why Fluimicil couldn't have been bought locally. Well the same question would still be relevant for his favoured theory of triamcinolone. Both drugs can be bought at the same pharmacy.

One thing I've never understood with this, is why they didn't use the preparations already available in the UK. Intravenous N-Acetylcysteine can and is used as a nebuliser in the UK. It just needs to be diluted with water, and put in a nebuliser cup. Not exactly difficult to do. The vials are easy to transport and dispose of, and there wouldn't have been any need for any of this silliness. That's why I am still so sceptical about what I hear.

spam02

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pross wrote:

But a large part of the growth in participation is due to seeing the Olympic success. Cyclocross and MTB are the disciplines with the highest participation at my club by a long way at all age groups but particularly among the kids and the focus point of virtually all the coaching sessions we provide (despite being called a road club). However, as I said earlier, we had massive upsurges in new members after both the London and Rio Olympics which account for most of those participating in Cross and MTB now. So although the funding is mainly focussed towards the track programme at an elite level I would argue it affects participation levels in all disciplines. Funding cuts would hit the whole sport and Vino's glee at the possibility to me demonstrates that his true colours are seeing British Cycling (and possibly Sky by proxy) being damaged.

It'd be interesting to know just how much olympic success led to increased participation. My feeling is it contributed but that it wasn't a major driver - research suggests London as a whole didn't lead to increased participation in sport so I can't see why cycling in particular should have benefited but it is a hunch so I accept I may be wrong.

Locally we have a velodrome now which I believe BC funding contributed to and that has certainly driven participation though the big upsurge predates it.

There was something to be said for cycling being niche - pre boom it did feel slightly different to be a road cyclist - a bit more exotic whereas now everyone just thinks you are a mamil going through a mid life crisis - probably true though I suppose.

I'd say the boom started following Beijing 2008. As someone else said on this forum, the figures for cycling are skewed as they only seem to count people taking part in competitive events, but the increase in people cycling since 2008 has increased hugely. That's a lot of money being spent on all aspects of cycling, some of which will be fed back into 'the sport'.

I remember when cycling was a niche sport (I started racing as a 'schoolboy' when BC was the BCF back in the 80's) and the sport is unrecognisable now for the better . There are far more (and much better) purpose-built facilities available for cyclists at all levels now - which is just as well as it is becoming harder and harder now to promote racing on the open roads (grass roots).

People shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that BC losing funding won't have an affect on the sport below elite level. It may take one or even two Olympic cycles of poor results, but loss of the sports popularity = less participation at grass roots, leading to less money in the sport, less money to spend on (and less need for) providing those facilities etc. and so on.

It really wasn't all that long ago that having one British cyclist just racing in Europe was a major achievement, whereas these days (due in part to opportunities via BC's Academy) more often than not you can expect to see a Brit being competitive or at least having some sort of influence in the majority of races.

bobmcstuff

/\ As I said just up thread - if overall sport participation hasn't gone up yet cycling participation has gone up a lot, then I suggest that some other sports must have reduced - basically if all these new cyclists weren't cycling they might be doing some other sport. Seems the only way to explain increased cycling without having increased sport participation as a whole following 2012 and 2016.

TheBigBean

Triathlons have increased in popularity which has probably helped cycling.

rick_chasey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns6YSvCsVJM

DeVlaeminck

bobmcstuff wrote:

/\ As I said just up thread - if overall sport participation hasn't gone up yet cycling participation has gone up a lot, then I suggest that some other sports must have reduced - basically if all these new cyclists weren't cycling they might be doing some other sport. Seems the only way to explain increased cycling without having increased sport participation as a whole following 2012 and 2016.

I know you said that but why should London have boosted cycling if it didn't boost other sports ? Is it not more likely that cycling has gone up because there has been a boom in endurance type activities including running, triathlon for reasons other than elite success. In fact didn't the figures show a slight decrease in cycling post 2012 - that would seem strange given it was the peak of GB cycling success what with Wiggins et al ?

Of course those involved in sports administration, professional coaches and athletes claim elite success boosts participation because they benefit from increased funding but we need to see some hard evidence really.

DeVlaeminck

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Aren't they basically saying the same thing?

Of course some will say that throwing a suicidal 21 year old under the bus would have been the right thing to do.

slim_boy_fat

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Surely it's great news that he was dobbed in by another rider? Seems from what Peters said they were thinking of his health and mental state above anything. If they had dobbed him into the authorities what effect would it have had on him. How does he benefit from telling his story now?

RichN95.

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Surely it's great news that he was dobbed in by another rider? Seems from what Peters said they were thinking of his health and mental state above anything. If they had dobbed him into the authorities what effect would it have had on him. How does he benefit from telling his story now?

I wonder who dobbed him in - EBH, Deignan, Cataldo, Puccio, Swift, Siutsiu or Henao Jr?

He never rode for Sky again either.

And it's also notable that this is still really low level doping - stuff that is legal in most other sports.

bluemoon17

RichN95 wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Surely it's great news that he was dobbed in by another rider? Seems from what Peters said they were thinking of his health and mental state above anything. If they had dobbed him into the authorities what effect would it have had on him. How does he benefit from telling his story now?

I wonder who dobbed him in - EBH, Deignan, Cataldo, Puccio, Swift, Siutsiu or Henao Jr?

He never rode for Sky again either.

And it's also notable that this is still really low level doping - stuff that is legal in most other sports.

And yet people see the word needle and automatically think Armstrong. Unless of course you are a tennis player, cricketer or footballer, as people don't dope in those sports. They just use cortisone injections to 'get through' matches.

blazing_saddles

I saw him win the Junior Tour of Wales a few years ago.
He was a very talented rider.
The sport has suffered too many tragedies with such issues.
I'm a bit concerned that Dan Roan is pushing his agenda a little too hard, with this one.

carbonclem

Take aways from this - Sky have a whistle blower system in place, suspected doping not tolerated, action is taken immediately, no needle policy adhered to and a duty of care shown to athlete.

Positive story really?

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It'd be interesting to know just how much olympic success led to increased participation. My feeling is it contributed but that it wasn't a major driver - research suggests London as a whole didn't lead to increased participation in sport so I can't see why cycling in particular should have benefited but it is a hunch so I accept I may be wrong.

Locally we have a velodrome now which I believe BC funding contributed to and that has certainly driven participation though the big upsurge predates it.

There was something to be said for cycling being niche - pre boom it did feel slightly different to be a road cyclist - a bit more exotic whereas now everyone just thinks you are a mamil going through a mid life crisis - probably true though I suppose.

I can only go on what I saw with the kids sessions I coached at my club. Prior to London we were getting 20-30 each week. When we started after the 2012 summer break we were at 40 plus. Cycling had a massive profile that summer with the Olympics and Wiggo winning the Tour. I can't see anything else that would have caused such a sudden increase.

I no longer coach but understand there was another large increase after Rio which I assume was due in a large part to Becky, who started out at the same sessions, getting her medals.

I suspect the increase in middle aged men (and women) is more along the lines you suggest though but it's child participation that's the key for the future.

Obviously I don't know for certain these are the reasons and it could all be coincidence.

yourpaceormine

CarbonClem wrote:

Take aways from this - Sky have a whistle blower system in place, suspected doping not tolerated, action is taken immediately, no needle policy adhered to and a duty of care shown to athlete.

Positive story really?

Absolutely. Great that a fellow rider blew the whistle, suggests a change in attitude in the peleton is taking place.

Sad for Josh a talented rider, I can now better understand Tao's decision to remain at a lower level for another year. Easy to stand on the sidelines throwing bricks, but not reporting him to the UCI and upholding their duty of care to Josh seems eminently sensible.

r0bh

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I'm a bit concerned that Dan Roan is pushing his agenda a little too hard, with this one.

This. It seems to me that to Roan the crisis suffered by Edmondson is just another stick to beat Sky with.

DeVlaeminck

I don't think Sky and him are saying the same thing, I only heard it on the radio but my impression was his story is he told Sky he had injected - Sky say he denied having used the needle.

It's important because injecting would be against the rules of the sport - did Sky know that and are now denying it or is Josh lying for some unspecified reason ?

slim_boy_fat

Looking at Twitter Sky might as well just give up. The truth is unimportant, it's nailing Sky and our cyclists that's important.

smithy21

RichN95 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Aren't they basically saying the same thing?

Of course some will say that throwing a suicidal 21 year old under the bus would have been the right thing to do.

Zero tolerance!

DeVlaeminck

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

wombly_knees

I can't see how not reporting rule breakage is the right course of action. Should've definitely been a support system in place for him, but it seems that the boundaries for justification are being pushed slightly further each time.

slim_boy_fat

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

They didn't deny, they didn't inform. And that is a huge call for a team to make. It raises the issue of rider well being and what the teams responsibilities are. Is there a point at which a riders well being becomes more important than a teams responsibility to report a potential anti doping violation. And also remembering that according to Sky no actual violation had occurred. A really difficult position to be in.

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Surely it's great news that he was dobbed in by another rider? Seems from what Peters said they were thinking of his health and mental state above anything. If they had dobbed him into the authorities what effect would it have had on him. How does he benefit from telling his story now?

I wonder who dobbed him in - EBH, Deignan, Cataldo, Puccio, Swift, Siutsiu or Henao Jr?

He never rode for Sky again either.

And it's also notable that this is still really low level doping - stuff that is legal in most other sports.

R5 named Boswell. His roommate apparently