Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.
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^ not if he panics.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
No
To throw one back at you - is there a single technical advance...since the invention of derailleurs maybe...that has had an effect on the racing?
Greg Lemond and Tri bars perhaps...
I don't really see why this is relevant to be honest
Well, lots of things have affected the speed of the riders, but they have quickly been adopted by everyone e.g. lightweight bikes, fancy bottom brackets, skin suits, aero helmets etc.
That's what i thought too Bean. I suppose the obvious one we ve missed is the Boardman Lotus bike or the Obree Bike which were equivalnets to the full body suit in swimming in terms of really moving creating a group of have/have notsMercia Man wrote:Poor descenders often come off because they approach a downhill corner too quickly, panic, brake too hard, lock up their wheels and lose control.
The main claimed advantage of disc brakes is better modulation. Surely this will help the poorer descender to avoid locking up his wheels?
I think you re confusing Pro's with "normos" there...
The anti-Sagans tend to fall off halfway through or exiting a corner when they ve got the line wrong. That's nothing to do with brakingWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Just to add some spice to the story from the front page - http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/horse-for-the-course-tarmac-pro-disc-for-rocky-mtn-ntl-park-44930/We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Some interesting thoughts. Does anyone think that once the manufacturers agree on a set standard and its introduced into the Pro ranks that it will be the death of the calliper?
I think it's largely down to the manufacturers, but there will be a certain tipping point where once (say) 50% of the teams are using them, the rest will follow because of service requirements etc.I mean once disc brakes become the norm will anyone/any teams, go back to using callipers? much in the same way that once the gear lever shifted from the frame to the brake lever that was it.
Possibly. I think when we see the rollout of the 2020 Tour de France I would be surprised if there were any riders using calliper brakes - but we shall see
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I'm also struggling to see how having better brakes will make someone a better descender.
Cancellara & Sagan are so good because their bike handling skills are exceptional, Pinot's is bad because his are relatively poor (see David Millar's analysis of his off on whatever stage in the tour). Their brakes have nothing to do with it
I would have to agree with this. If you watch most pro's its not braking that stops them from being good descenders, its road craft. Ive read a few articles about an ex-pro (sorry can't recall his name now) who teaches the current pros descending skills and the braking is fairly consistent going into a given corner, it's more about road craft i.e.: positioning, taking the corner at the right angle.
Most pros that aren't good at descending actually tend to use the brakes more because they don't feel confident. That confidence doesn't come from not having good brakes, it comes from not being able to take a corner faster or position themselves properly. Im a good descender when Im out with my mates but that comes from riding a motorbike and experience of knowing how to take corners and feel for grip from the tyres. The brakes are just there for emergency reasons. What stops my mates from being as fast as me is that they just don't like the speed that they could reach, we both have the same brake setup, so brakes are irrelevant in my book (when it comes to being a good descender)0 -
Just to add some spice to the story from the front page - http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/horse-for-the-course-tarmac-pro-disc-for-rocky-mtn-ntl-park-44930/
Interesting stuff. I know from my previous incarnation as a motorcycle road test writer how hydraulic disc brake fade can be a real and potentially dangerous issue on mountain descents. Apparently, a lot more disc heat is generated by a road bike descending a long mountain pass than for a mountain bike off road. I reckon bigger rotors at least for the front are perhaps a good idea. A bigger rotor is not about increasing braking power, it's about having a bigger surface area to dissipate heat.0 -
That's the scary thing about riding a bike. You're always only one mechanical away from a bad crash.0
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I don't want to be a d1ck MM, but if you re not going to read the articles posted then it's hard to talk to you seriously...
Don't get cross, Dave. I did read the article. I know Shimano USA concluded braking heat was not the cause of that failure. But I've read a previous account of disc brake failure on a road bike so it is a bit worrying. And I know that Thorn Cycles refuse to use discs as the main front brake on their tandems after road testing involving repeated stops down a steep hill resulted in disc brake fade.0 -
It's a well known fact that you need a new bike every two years. That's what I keep telling my other half anyway...
Incidentally Chasey, are we going to be seeing you in some David Millar ChptIII kit?
Was very tempted until someone noticed the collar looked a bit Dr Evil
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It's a well known fact that you need a new bike every two years. That's what I keep telling my other half anyway...
Incidentally Chasey, are we going to be seeing you in some David Millar ChptIII kit?
Was very tempted until someone noticed the collar looked a bit Dr Evil
Suits you to a T 0 -
You then clearly don't understand the basic mechanics of riding a bicycle on the road whether as a pro rider or your average joe pootling to work. But crack on with your utterly missing the point statement.
This post takes me back to when suspension first appeared on mountain bikes.....99.9% of the time on the road disc brakes are no more useful than a good set of Vs or DPs.
Yes in the wet for those unskilled/don't want to learn how to ride properly/can't read the road or see hazards types that also ignore setting up their brakes properly, discs can be useful.
I guess in the same way a brick is as a method of getting in your house.
Discs compensate for sloppy/lazy riding and those that ride beyond their own skill level and that of their machine. It's at those times that a person then finds out it isn't the stopping power of the brakes that needed to increase it was their skill level/thinking and the grip of the tyres.
It's classic risk compensation no different to ABS brakes on motorvehicles0 -
Like with many things in life the choice won't be (entirely) an objective one as to if it's needed or if it is 'better'. If the bike manufacturers device that's the way they are going to go and they want their teams to run discs, then that's what will happen.0
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I don't want to be a d1ck MM, but if you re not going to read the articles posted then it's hard to talk to you seriously...
Don't get cross, Dave. I did read the article. I know Shimano USA concluded braking heat was not the cause of that failure. But I've read a previous account of disc brake failure on a road bike so it is a bit worrying. And I know that Thorn Cycles refuse to use discs as the main front brake on their tandems after road testing involving repeated stops down a steep hill resulted in disc brake fade.
lemme guess, it was the one where they bodged a system together than found a massive hill to drag the brake all the way down? It wasnt bike rumour...but it was something like that...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I think it was Road Bike Action and, to be fair, I believe the same tester later tried out a standard Shimano hydraulic disc system and encountered no problems.
I've just looked up that SJS Cycles Thorn Raven tandem pdf I mentioned. Their designer Andy Blance describes how he tests all brakes down Crowcombe Hill, 1k at 25 per cent, holding a tandem at 10mph. He stresses this is for test purposes and advises potential owners of the correct way to use brakes on long steep hills. Surprisingly, Deore V-brakes came out best while discs suffered fade from overheating.
He writes: "Even the six pot 203mm Hope downhill MTB racing brake burned out within 400m and I was having to use both hands on the lever after 300m." Andy says he has done further tests and the only disc he can recommend for use on his tandems is the Hope V2 model with massive ceramic pistons and ventilated rotor.
Don't get me wrong, I like hydraulic discs and, despite what some have said, I do believe their superior modulation helps riders descend quicker - that's why competitors in the Red Bull Road Rage downhill road races mostly use discs. But I'm not so blinkered as to think they are perfect.0 -
It's a well known fact that you need a new bike every two years. That's what I keep telling my other half anyway...
Incidentally Chasey, are we going to be seeing you in some David Millar ChptIII kit?
Was very tempted until someone noticed the collar looked a bit Dr Evil
Suits you to a T
Oi!0 -
I think it was Road Bike Action and, to be fair, I believe the same tester later tried out a standard Shimano hydraulic disc system and encountered no problems.
I've just looked up that SJS Cycles Thorn Raven tandem pdf I mentioned. Their designer Andy Blance describes how he tests all brakes down Crowcombe Hill, 1k at 25 per cent, holding a tandem at 10mph. He stresses this is for test purposes and advises potential owners of the correct way to use brakes on long steep hills. Surprisingly, Deore V-brakes came out best while discs suffered fade from overheating.
He writes: "Even the six pot 203mm Hope downhill MTB racing brake burned out within 400m and I was having to use both hands on the lever after 300m." Andy says he has done further tests and the only disc he can recommend for use on his tandems is the Hope V2 model with massive ceramic pistons and ventilated rotor.
Don't get me wrong, I like hydraulic discs and, despite what some have said, I do believe their superior modulation helps riders descend quicker - that's why competitors in the Red Bull Road Rage downhill road races mostly use discs. But I'm not so blinkered as to think they are perfect.
I don't recall anyone saying they re perfect, better than 30-40 (??) year old technology though, yep
You will always be able to find a way of making them boil, riding a tandem slowly down a super steep hill is so far from a real world test that it's hardly worth discussing. If we had to account for every possible stupidity we would be riding around in full body armour on dutch bikes limited to 5 mph. But at some point one has to accept some personal responsibilityWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
You will always be able to find a way of making them boil, riding a tandem slowly down a super steep hill is so far from a real world test that it's hardly worth discussing.
Really? I thought that sounded like quite a reasonable test. I'd like to think that my brakes would carry a heavy rider down a hill at that speed. Naturally, I would prefer not to brake, but sometimes you don't have a choice e.g. there is a car in front of you crawling in traffic.0 -
You will always be able to find a way of making them boil, riding a tandem slowly down a super steep hill is so far from a real world test that it's hardly worth discussing.
Really? I thought that sounded like quite a reasonable test. I'd like to think that my brakes would carry a heavy rider down a hill at that speed. Naturally, I would prefer not to brake, but sometimes you don't have a choice e.g. there is a car in front of you crawling in traffic.
Come on... don't we all just ride on closed roads in perfect weather?0 -
There is a difference between 2 people on one disc brake vs one person riding carefully down a hill though Bean
I don't know if it was the GCN vid posted but there was one where Dan dragged his rear brake (only) down the whole Tourmalet descent. I would have assumed that that would have caused the brake to fade too but it didnt. I'd like to see what would ve happened if they'd tried that with a rim brake (I suspect he'd have needed new pads at the bottom). These tests are like cross chaining a groupset riding it through a mud/salt/sand mix and then saying it does nt shift properly any more. Well...yeahWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
And, of course, if it worries you that much you could always use cable pull discs.0
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There is a difference between 2 people on one disc brake vs one person riding carefully down a hill though Bean
I don't know if it was the GCN vid posted but there was one where Dan dragged his rear brake (only) down the whole Tourmalet descent. I would have assumed that that would have caused the brake to fade too but it didnt. I'd like to see what would ve happened if they'd tried that with a rim brake (I suspect he'd have needed new pads at the bottom). These tests are like cross chaining a groupset riding it through a mud/salt/sand mix and then saying it does nt shift properly any more. Well...yeah
We clearly have very different levels of expectation for our kit. I would expect my gears to continue to work even after I've ridden in snow which they do, and is the situation that you describe given gritting on the roads. My chain might take a pasting though. This reminds me, trimming is another extremely unsatisfactory modern invention. It also reminds me just how much fun snow is...
I don't have an opinion on which braking system is better. I just would expect to be able ride down a hill at 10 mph on any road worthy bike. That's basically like riding down Highgate West Hill in rush hour. Plus I'm not the lightest rider - I'm the equivalent of two Rick Chaseys!0 -
I saw a rider's wheel blow up because he was braking too much down the col d'aubisque.
Rim overheated and basically burst. Wheel was a write off.
Wouldn't have happened on discs.
Wouldn't have happened if he wasn't such a f*cking pansy going downhill either, but he can't help that.0 -
I saw a rider's wheel blow up because he was braking too much down the col d'aubisque.
Rim overheated and basically burst. Wheel was a write off.
Wouldn't have happened on discs.
Wouldn't have happened if he wasn't such a f*cking pansy going downhill either, but he can't help that.
Too many riders are pansy's when descending. I often go downhill at 60mph with one hand on the bar, both feet in the air while smoking a Cuban.
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I am a fully paid up pansy when it comes to descending. Discs won't change that but I reckon I will be going for them when I next buy a bike.0
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Main problem for me is I'm a total sucker for wanting to buy what the pros use.
Literally can't help myself.
I know that if I spend 2-3 years watching pros on disc brakes, I will turn to my (rather wonderful) Canyon and come to an ostensibly rational conclusion that I definitely need a new bike with disc brakes, despite the fact that the Canyon is everything and more for the riding I do.
Get shopping
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Trek rider Markel IRIZAR ARRANBURU is riding disks today at La Vuelta, was quite shocked to see that.
I don't know if all of Trek are riding them
Can't be long nowaztecboy0 -
Trek rider Markel IRIZAR ARRANBURU is riding disks today at La Vuelta, was quite shocked to see that.
I don't know if all of Trek are riding them
Can't be long now
Dont think it is all team - these were the first I had seen. For some reason I thought testing was not in the GTs0
