Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.
Comments
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Dish was telling me in the pub that he notices that having spent some time on a cross bike (with discs), when he moves back to the roadie with rim brakes he spends half a day overshooting corners because he's just used to being able to stop so much later.
Main problem presumably is a) botched wheel changes and b) they look sh!t.
But presumably if they become legal in road races there will be a fair bit of R&D will go into them and they'll get lighter and better looking.0 -
I'd have discs immediately if they were standard issue and we didn't have to deal with cable ones on cheaper bikes - even fairly cheap mtbs these days have hydros. All the cable discs I have used personally (a while ago now!) weren't very good so this puts me off, although the ones on my girlfriend's new Croix de Fer seem decent.
Having them in the pro peleton can only be a good thing as it will make them start to think about standardizing the systems a bit and drive developments in road specific stuff like aero.0 -
I've got hydraulic discs on my commuter city bike. Had it about 4 or 5 years. Haven't had to do anything with them, at all, ever. Absolute zero maintenance. They still work like a dream.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
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"botched wheel changes"?
If teams and neutral service vehicles were that bothered about the speed of wheel changes they'd sort out the current system of the mechanic holding the bike up with one hand and trying/failing to fit the wheel with the other whilst the rider looks on like a cow trying to understand poker.
Fitting a disc wheel is usually slicker than a traditional wheel, why people think it's so hard baffles me. Some of the other reasons why pros shouldn't have them equally great: the seals hardening, more trouble to maintain, the carnage in a crash etc - I can't tell if this is just taking the piss or the people spreading the tales of the forthcoming apocolypse have just never seen disc brakes in real life.0 -
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Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.
There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.
When virtually every other 2 wheeled sport uses disc brakes, why does road cycling think they are not needed? "Competition improves the breed" - a saying used in Motorsport; why are bike manufacturers in bike racing? To sell more bikes. They must bang their heads at the 'luddites' in road cycling. MTB and CX are miles ahead when it comes to bike technology....
I sometimes wonder whether some wished we still had steel frames, single gears & woolen jerseys..... It's 2015, just allow them full time. If Joe Public can use them, then so should the pros.All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."0 -
As long as you don't accidentally squeeze the brake at the wrong moment.
So what if you do? 99% of the time nothing bad happens and if you've got a tendency to randomly slam your brakes on when you don't mean to then maybe you're safer having a bit of time off the bike anyway...
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If you squeeze the brakes hard there's a tiny chance that the pads won't retract fully. In over 10 years of disc brake use it's happened to me once and I fixed it in about 30 seconds with a 2p piece and I usually knock the brake levers all over the place when putting bikes in the car, chucking bags on top etc etc.
If the pro peloton can't deal with this then they need to have a word with themselves really.0 -
Can't get the wheel in if you do that, no?
You'd hope the wheel change service guys would know not to do that. But if you do it yourself you just lever them apart, it's no big deal. Bit off faff maybe but your fault for being an idiot.0 -
For an average rider like myself discs give more confidence and shorter stopping distances in the wet. The only potential downside is the hassle when seals harden and leak with age (on the superior hydraulic versions) and occasional squealing. Having said that,the Shimano XT brakes on my mountain bike have turned out to be indestructible.
26" mountain bike wheels disappeared within a 2 year time frame and I expect rim brakes will too on consumer range bikes.
my mtb hope brakes last about 5 years before needing a service. i'm still on 26" with a triple chainring and have no intention of changing.
i've had cable disks on my road bike for the last 5 years with the only maintenance needed is brake pads every year or so.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
I can't see the point of disk brakes on a road bike, dual pivot calipers are powerful enough to lock up your wheels even in the wet, there is plenty enough modulation and brake pads last thousands of miles. Even full carbon rims aren't much of a problem (although it was a slight PITA changing the brake pads between my set for metal rims and my set for carbon rims) For pro races it seems very much a solution in search of a problem, pushed on the riders by the bike companies.)
Agree with this. The performance of current brake callipers and pads are pretty impressive and as you say, will easily lock up BOTH wheels in the wet. What are discs brakes going to do in the wet? I'd guess they will increase the likelihood of a front wheel lock-up quite significantly and that means even more crashes.
I have followed the sport relatively closely over the last 20 years and I can't recall too many riders screaming for a better brake system than that which has been employed to-date on modern road bikes. It does appear that the introduction of disc brakes is being driven by the manufacturers with the sole purpose of creating "the next big thing" which equates to the creation of an (unnecessary) development. We will then be told we absolutely must have this gimmick. The manufacturers are trying to grab more of your hard-earned cash in, I believe, a cynical manner. Shimano STI, clipless pedals and carbon have been true additions and enhancements to the road racing bike over the last 30 years but disc brakes aren't. The manufacturers are simply trying to replace a system that doesn't need to be replaced. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Aesthetically, road bikes don't look great nowadays with deep section rims. Disc brakes will be the final nail in the coffin of truly beautiful road racing bicycles.
DD.0 -
I can't see the point of disk brakes on a road bike, dual pivot calipers are powerful enough to lock up your wheels even in the wet, there is plenty enough modulation and brake pads last thousands of miles. Even full carbon rims aren't much of a problem (although it was a slight PITA changing the brake pads between my set for metal rims and my set for carbon rims) For pro races it seems very much a solution in search of a problem, pushed on the riders by the bike companies.)
Agree with this. The performance of current brake callipers and pads are pretty impressive and as you say, will easily lock up BOTH wheels in the wet. What are discs brakes going to do in the wet? I'd guess they will increase the likelihood of a front wheel lock-up quite significantly and that means even more crashes.
Sounds like you've never used disc brakes. Since when has locking up the wheels been the measure of good braking? Surely that's the last thing you want to do, especially in the wet.
What people who haven't used disc brakes can't appreciate is the level of control you have over the power available compared to even the best rim brake set up. I find I accidentally lock up the wheels far less often on the bikes with disc brakes. It's almost like having ABS.0 -
I can't see the point of disk brakes on a road bike, dual pivot calipers are powerful enough to lock up your wheels even in the wet, there is plenty enough modulation and brake pads last thousands of miles. Even full carbon rims aren't much of a problem (although it was a slight PITA changing the brake pads between my set for metal rims and my set for carbon rims) For pro races it seems very much a solution in search of a problem, pushed on the riders by the bike companies.)
Agree with this. The performance of current brake callipers and pads are pretty impressive and as you say, will easily lock up BOTH wheels in the wet. What are discs brakes going to do in the wet? I'd guess they will increase the likelihood of a front wheel lock-up quite significantly and that means even more crashes.
Sounds like you've never used disc brakes. Since when has locking up the wheels been the measure of good braking? Surely that's the last thing you want to do, especially in the wet.
What people who haven't used disc brakes can't appreciate is the level of control you have over the power available compared to even the best rim brake set up. I find I accidentally lock up the wheels far less often on the bikes with disc brakes. It's almost like having ABS.
My thoughts exactly, I road ride in the wetter / colder months on rim brakes. When i switch back to my XT disc brake mountain bike as the weather warms up the increase in braking power and control is very significant. For this reason my new road bike will have hydraulic disc brakes.
Combining disc and rim brakes in a tightly packed fast paced race on road especially in the wet would be very dangerous.0 -
I very much enjoyed the power of disc brakes but much prefer the look of rim brakes. My Cervelo (for the best riding) has rim brakes, and my trainer/winter has disc brakes.0
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Don't think there's much disputing that disc brakes work better, especially in the wet and especially after prolonged use, so the argument that rim brakes do the job fine is pretty comprehensively countered.
It's more an issue around weight (forks needs to be more heavily engineered & the housing for the brakes is heavier),and (i thought, anyway) the issues around changing wheels.0 -
should be able to sort out wheel change. a wide aperture to the caliper, some sort of cam to retract pads, much like rim brakes.
floating caliper to self centre.
weight and strength is another issue, but bikes are being made several kilo's below uci limit.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
[quote="Sounds like you've never used disc brakes. Since when has locking up the wheels been the measure of good braking? [/quote]
Nope, have never used disc brakes and unless my tendonosis clears up, I probably never will.
The example of calliper brakes locking up both wheels in the wet was a poor way of saying current brakes have plenty of stopping power. Ultimately the manufacturers will force the change in the coming years anyway, whether discs are a good thing or not.
I'll stick to my TB14s and calliper brakes. Aesthetically they are more to my liking.
DD.0 -
Don't think there's much disputing that disc brakes work better, especially in the wet and especially after prolonged use, so the argument that rim brakes do the job fine is pretty comprehensively countered.
It's more an issue around weight (forks needs to be more heavily engineered & the housing for the brakes is heavier),and (i thought, anyway) the issues around changing wheels.
Weight and aero-ness are the only two major issues...
As for squealing... everyone in the alps knew I was braking when I squeezed the calipers onto my shamals. The discs are super quiet.
And folks, please can we agree - disc is spelt with a c not a k...0 -
I think the issue is more to do with the rider than the style of brakes. Imagine you're a good descender riding behind a less confident descender, you're lined up for the corner and expecting to brake later but the rider on better (disc) brakes brakes earlier than you and harder as they are less sure of themselves. You suddenly find yourself trying to stop earlier than the guy in front of you who can stop faster, this is where I see accidents happening.....and I say this from experience. Ok sure maybe I should have given the guy in front more space but when you're pushing and unfamiliar with your opponent/companion then these situations can happenDon't think there's much disputing that disc brakes work better, especially in the wet and especially after prolonged use, so the argument that rim brakes do the job fine is pretty comprehensively countered.
It's more an issue around weight (forks needs to be more heavily engineered & the housing for the brakes is heavier),and (i thought, anyway) the issues around changing wheels.0 -
It's more an issue around weight (forks needs to be more heavily engineered & the housing for the brakes is heavier),and (i thought, anyway) the issues around changing wheels.
As said, the weight issue is moot considering the UCI's 6.8kg weight limit. The CAAD 12 disc frameset is actually lighter than the rim brake version, so it's a bit of a myth that disc compatibility = more weight.
The wheel changing or, more specifically, axle standards will be the real sticking point as far as I can see.
How much do pro's actually use their brakes, anyway? For the odd corner where they need to scrub a little speed, rim brakes are fine. It's for the average Joe that discs are more relevant, but I suppose pro racing is the ultimate shop window.0 -
I think the issue is more to do with the rider than the style of brakes. Imagine you're a good descender riding behind a less confident descender, you're lined up for the corner and expecting to brake later but the rider on better (disc) brakes brakes earlier than you and harder as they are less sure of themselves. You suddenly find yourself trying to stop earlier than the guy in front of you who can stop faster, this is where I see accidents happening.....and I say this from experience. Ok sure maybe I should have given the guy in front more space but when you're pushing and unfamiliar with your opponent/companion then these situations can happenDon't think there's much disputing that disc brakes work better, especially in the wet and especially after prolonged use, so the argument that rim brakes do the job fine is pretty comprehensively countered.
It's more an issue around weight (forks needs to be more heavily engineered & the housing for the brakes is heavier),and (i thought, anyway) the issues around changing wheels.
If a rider you're following closely slams on the brakes unexpectedly you'll crash in to the back of them. Doesn't matter what brakes they're using. Most crashes in the pro peloton are blamed on someone touching the brakes - and that's with everyone on rim brakes.0 -
99.9% of the time on the road disc brakes are no more useful than a good set of Vs or DPs.
Yes in the wet for those unskilled/don't want to learn how to ride properly/can't read the road or see hazards types that also ignore setting up their brakes properly, discs can be useful.
I guess in the same way a brick is as a method of getting in your house.
Discs compensate for sloppy/lazy riding and those that ride beyond their own skill level and that of their machine. It's at those times that a person then finds out it isn't the stopping power of the brakes that needed to increase it was their skill level/thinking and the grip of the tyres.
It's classic risk compensation no different to ABS brakes on motorvehicles0 -
99.9% of the time on the road disc brakes are no more useful than a good set of Vs or DPs.
Yes in the wet for those unskilled/don't want to learn how to ride properly/can't read the road or see hazards types that also ignore setting up their brakes properly, discs can be useful.
I guess in the same way a brick is as a method of getting in your house.
Discs compensate for sloppy/lazy riding and those that ride beyond their own skill level and that of their machine. It's at those times that a person then finds out it isn't the stopping power of the brakes that needed to increase it was their skill level/thinking and the grip of the tyres.
It's classic risk compensation no different to ABS brakes on motorvehicles
What you are saying is any good brakes on a road bike compensate for a lack of skill and appreciation of the riding conditions, meaning good brakes are not needed and riders should train themselves to use poor brakes better.0 -
What about a compromise - the new breed of hydraulic rim brakes matched with better brake tracks (exalith and the hed or campag/fulcrum equivalents, and their carbon counterparts)
The rim is a big disk after all0 -
I'm not sure people are arguing that but I do think it has to be all or nothing, having some with and some without is a recipe for disaster I think given the nature of a peleton and the proximity of the riders around you.What you re doing there is arguing for less good, less safe, less effective equipment on the grounds that some people are too dumb to learn how to use it...0 -
Random thought: 3 riders in my club(inc myself) are using disc brakes now, but every single rider who has crashed in the past 2 months has been on rim brakes.
:roll:And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.0 -
Or that some people are too dumb to learn how to use their brakes?What you re doing there is arguing for less good, less safe, less effective equipment on the grounds that some people are too dumb to learn how to use it...
I'm not at all anti disc brakes it's just an area of the bike that I'm very rarely disappointed with (and I suppose for those rare times they'd be worth it).
My rim brakes seemed perfectly fine at 100kph down th e Glandon!0
