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  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,509
    Rosie Duffield sounds like one of the brighter Labour MP's:
    https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/11/labour-mp-rosie-duffield-keir-starmer-no-better-jeremy-corbyn/

    I suppose it means that Starmer staying in charge of New Old Labour for a while isn't such a bad thing after all :smile:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    Stevo_666 said:

    Rosie Duffield sounds like one of the brighter Labour MP's:
    https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/11/labour-mp-rosie-duffield-keir-starmer-no-better-jeremy-corbyn/

    I suppose it means that Starmer staying in charge of New Old Labour for a while isn't such a bad thing after all :smile:

    Will you Corbyn voters never stop harking back to your socialist roots?
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,907
    Quick, @Stevo_666, I think you need to ride to Corbyn's defence!


    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    rick_chasey said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.

    Has he said what the opportunities are?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    kingstongraham said:

    rick_chasey said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.

    Has he said what the opportunities are?
    Course not.

    It's the "it's done now so we need to focus on the opportunities" line.

    A much more sensible line would be "the focus is really to undo the damage a poor deal has done - the opposition are frantically trying to undo a deal they said was great only 12 months ago - and focus on where it makes sense to work with Europe and where it makes sense to take the opportunity given"

    The EU exit has happened so you can straddle both sides again.

    Any sensible governor should, as I've said before, evaluate the advantage of divergence against the cost, and if the advantage is not sufficient, they ought to align with the EU and lock it into a trade deal.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,621
    He's trying to get elected. Seems sensible to me.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    TheBigBean said:

    He's trying to get elected. Seems sensible to me.

    Half the electorate think it's rubbish, it's not that sensible.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,666
    edited February 2022
    rick_chasey said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rick_chasey said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.

    Has he said what the opportunities are?
    Course not.

    It's the "it's done now so we need to focus on the opportunities" line.

    A much more sensible line would be "the focus is really to undo the damage a poor deal has done - the opposition are frantically trying to undo a deal they said was great only 12 months ago - and focus on where it makes sense to work with Europe and where it makes sense to take the opportunity given"

    The EU exit has happened so you can straddle both sides again.

    Any sensible governor should, as I've said before, evaluate the advantage of divergence against the cost, and if the advantage is not sufficient, they ought to align with the EU and lock it into a trade deal.
    That's all well and good, but in order to do any of that they need to be in power and the slightest whiff of 'undoing' Brexit will just be fuel for their opponents and reduce their chances of getting into power. This is why people like Andrew Adonis should shut up about the fairytale of rejoining.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    I just listened to it - it was an "I don't want to talk about this" answer.

    Brexit is over, we're out of the EU, let's move on, let's listen to what's important to people in Blyth, and talk about the energy crisis.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rick_chasey said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.

    Has he said what the opportunities are?
    Course not.

    It's the "it's done now so we need to focus on the opportunities" line.

    A much more sensible line would be "the focus is really to undo the damage a poor deal has done - the opposition are frantically trying to undo a deal they said was great only 12 months ago - and focus on where it makes sense to work with Europe and where it makes sense to take the opportunity given"

    The EU exit has happened so you can straddle both sides again.

    Any sensible governor should, as I've said before, evaluate the advantage of divergence against the cost, and if the advantage is not sufficient, they ought to align with the EU and lock it into a trade deal.
    That's all well and good, but in order to do any of that they need to be in power and the slightest whiff of 'undoing' Brexit will just be fuel for their opponents and reduce their chances of getting into power. This is why people like Andrew Adonis should shut up about the fairytale of rejoining.
    This government is literally trying to undo the trade deal they struck ffs.

    Why would it be different for labour?
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    rick_chasey said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rick_chasey said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.

    Has he said what the opportunities are?
    Course not.

    It's the "it's done now so we need to focus on the opportunities" line.

    A much more sensible line would be "the focus is really to undo the damage a poor deal has done - the opposition are frantically trying to undo a deal they said was great only 12 months ago - and focus on where it makes sense to work with Europe and where it makes sense to take the opportunity given"

    The EU exit has happened so you can straddle both sides again.

    Any sensible governor should, as I've said before, evaluate the advantage of divergence against the cost, and if the advantage is not sufficient, they ought to align with the EU and lock it into a trade deal.
    That's all well and good, but in order to do any of that they need to be in power and the slightest whiff of 'undoing' Brexit will just be fuel for their opponents and reduce their chances of getting into power. This is why people like Andrew Adonis should shut up about the fairytale of rejoining.
    This government is literally trying to undo the trade deal they struck ffs.

    Why would it be different for labour?
    Because 90% of the electorate only has a basic understanding of trade deals and certainly can not assess what is good
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,621
    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    He's trying to get elected. Seems sensible to me.

    Half the electorate think it's rubbish, it's not that sensible.
    A lot more than half of the seats are leave voting though.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    He's trying to get elected. Seems sensible to me.

    Half the electorate think it's rubbish, it's not that sensible.
    A lot more than half of the seats are leave voting though.
    Joys of FPTP.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,666
    rick_chasey said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rick_chasey said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-opportunities-keir-starmer-labour-b2014643.html

    If he keeps up this nonsense he's no better than Rees-Mogg.

    Has he said what the opportunities are?
    Course not.

    It's the "it's done now so we need to focus on the opportunities" line.

    A much more sensible line would be "the focus is really to undo the damage a poor deal has done - the opposition are frantically trying to undo a deal they said was great only 12 months ago - and focus on where it makes sense to work with Europe and where it makes sense to take the opportunity given"

    The EU exit has happened so you can straddle both sides again.

    Any sensible governor should, as I've said before, evaluate the advantage of divergence against the cost, and if the advantage is not sufficient, they ought to align with the EU and lock it into a trade deal.
    That's all well and good, but in order to do any of that they need to be in power and the slightest whiff of 'undoing' Brexit will just be fuel for their opponents and reduce their chances of getting into power. This is why people like Andrew Adonis should shut up about the fairytale of rejoining.
    This government is literally trying to undo the trade deal they struck ffs.

    Why would it be different for labour?
    Sure. And if you really want to stop them you need to get them out of government and if biting your tongue about Brexit helps that primary aim...
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    edited February 2022
    No I’m asking why does this gov get a pass for renegotiating the deal but labour don’t?

    I don't understand why labour discussing the ongoing relationship and the future of it get penalised but this gov't won't when they are doing exactly the same thing?
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,666
    Because politics is tribal. You know this as well as anyone. Labour need to avoid being framed as anti-Brexit in order to win. What the Conservatives are doing is almost by the by.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,509
    briantrumpet said:

    Quick, @Stevo_666, I think you need to ride to Corbyn's defence!


    Well TBH, he has no hope of being in a position of influence even if he isn't deselected, although I suppose that having a decent number of proper swivel eyed socialists in the Party always helps to dent Labour's chances. That said I'm not a member any more after they wanted a bigger contribution for staying a member and £3 was all I was prepared to pay to help stuff things up for them.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,509
    rjsterry said:

    the fairytale of rejoining.

    I've said this a few times but it doesn't stop people going on about it.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,907
    Stevo_666 said:

    briantrumpet said:

    Quick, @Stevo_666, I think you need to ride to Corbyn's defence!


    Well TBH, he has no hope of being in a position of influence even if he isn't deselected, although I suppose that having a decent number of proper swivel eyed socialists in the Party always helps to dent Labour's chances. That said I'm not a member any more after they wanted a bigger contribution for staying a member and £3 was all I was prepared to pay to help stuff things up for them.

    I still see stuff about how if only Corbyn hadn't been pilloried by the MSM (and Stevo), Labour would have won, and we'd all be living in the Garden of Eden.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    the fairytale of rejoining.

    I've said this a few times but it doesn't stop people going on about it.
    Who?
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,551
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    He's trying to get elected. Seems sensible to me.

    Half the electorate think it's rubbish, it's not that sensible.
    A lot more than half of the seats are leave voting though.
    This. They lost a load of seats purely as the Tories were making themselves out to be the party to provide the Brexit they'd voted for so Starmer needs to sound like he's going to make the best of the situation. Presumably, if he gets into power, he can then try to quietly get us much more in line with what we had before
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,509
    rick_chasey said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    the fairytale of rejoining.

    I've said this a few times but it doesn't stop people going on about it.
    Who?
    You for starters. I find honesty is the best policy.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,700
    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    the fairytale of rejoining.

    I've said this a few times but it doesn't stop people going on about it.
    Who?
    You for starters. I find honesty is the best policy.
    I’ve always advocated for a Norway plus model since the vote. Said it on here multiple times.

    Obviously a return is the ideal, but I’ve never said that’s a realistic option.

    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rick_chasey said:

    No I’m asking why does this gov get a pass for renegotiating the deal but labour don’t?

    I don't understand why labour discussing the ongoing relationship and the future of it get penalised but this gov't won't when they are doing exactly the same thing?

    The public have seen how Brexit plays out once and now know what a lot knew before. That it was a negotiation and whilst you may have a list of things you want going in you are unlikely to get them all. When Labour talk about changing the deal this is not a vote winner as it neither wins votes on the remain or Brexit side. Those in the middle just see it as additional risk. They should focus on how they would benefit the country within the current framework to improve people's lives.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,775
    Is that last month's current framework, or next month's current framework? A clearly defined continuously changing moving target pretty much sums up this government.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,907
    I agree with the thrust of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/27/keir-starmer-party-opposition-election-labour

    Starmer never says anything surprising or even that interesting, but instead presents himself as a calm and unexciting alternative to Johnson’s incompetence and flamboyance. Given some of the people giving him advice, it’s not surprising there are echoes of New Labour. But while Blair, Brown et al were full of ambition and vim, it all smells of the party circa 2005, when its election slogan was “Britain forward not back”, and it tried to curry favour with what we would now call “red wall” voters with a bundle of half-ideas called “the respect agenda”.

    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Pretty bleak that the best the opposition can do against Johnson is to say nothing.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,551
    shirley_basso said:

    Pretty bleak that the best the opposition can do against Johnson is to say nothing.

    They had a Shadow Minister on BBC this morning that Sophie Raworth was trying to get to answer what increase Labour would be putting on benefits. She kept going after him to answer the question instead of deflecting about the Conservatives but got nowhere. I despair at the standard of politics in the country at this time. Lib Dems should be making hay but appear to have ceased to exist.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    edited March 2022
    Pross said:

    shirley_basso said:

    Pretty bleak that the best the opposition can do against Johnson is to say nothing.

    They had a Shadow Minister on BBC this morning that Sophie Raworth was trying to get to answer what increase Labour would be putting on benefits. She kept going after him to answer the question instead of deflecting about the Conservatives but got nowhere. I despair at the standard of politics in the country at this time. Lib Dems should be making hay but appear to have ceased to exist.
    Ed Davey was all over the BBC in his response last week. You can seek out what they say pretty easily, some very good, some reliably contradictory as always - but if they aren't getting on the news so often, how are they supposed to make hay?

    Fwiw, I've had them knock the door twice in the last month, the only ones who have done.

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