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morstar

It’s a conundrum isn’t it.
If you want to be rulers, you need an empire to rule (no matter how small), but conversely, you want to be able to benefit financially from your empire.

I guess this is the heart of the Tory battle. Ideologically driven to not support those who can’t support themselves whilst needing somebody to rule over.

Current trajectory says it breaks up but who knows, things can change quickly.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

Will the conservatives be able to get some people into government who aren't totally incompetent now?

"Our incompetents are better than your incompetents" is hardly good for the Country, nor anything to celebrate.

Suggest a viable alternative then.

It's a good point you make. I meant maybe the conservatives can put some competent conservatives in now that support for a no deal brexit isn't the main qualification. But you're right - they all got kicked out in 2019.

Good smartarse reply I think you know the point I was making.

No, I was serious, you made me think about what I'd said.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

That's the economic argument. And the political one.

Just the small matter of being the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Union with Wales still counts. They don't have enough MPs to tilt the balance.

kingstongraham

Can anyone articulate what any of the parties' core philosophy is? What are they there for?

(Except the SNP)

rick_chasey

I couldn’t

briantrumpet

Lib Dems policy is to be invisible, obvs.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Can anyone articulate what any of the parties' core philosophy is? What are they there for?

(Except the SNP)

For the Tories it seems to be tell people whatever they want to hear and get elected at all costs then do what you want.

orraloon

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

Can anyone articulate what any of the parties' core philosophy is? What are they there for?

(Except the SNP)

For the Tories it seems to be tell people whatever they want to hear and get elected at all costs then do what you want while trousering as much into your mates' pockets as possible and spaffing mysteriously colossal amounts on world beating erm fwaw bibble

There'll be more.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Lib Dems policy is to be invisible, obvs.

In that case they are incredibly successful as they have achieved all of their policy aims

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Lib Dems policy is to be invisible, obvs.

In that case they are incredibly successful as they have achieved all of their policy aims

Indeed so. A quite remarkable achievement.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Lib Dems policy is to be invisible, obvs.

In that case they are incredibly successful as they have achieved all of their policy aims

Indeed so. A quite remarkable achievement.

A classic case of creating success by lowering expectations.

Whereas the SNP are a total failure.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

That's the economic argument. And the political one.

Just the small matter of being the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Union with Wales still counts. They don't have enough MPs to tilt the balance.

Rather a lot of actual Scots in senior roles in the party, don't you think?

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

That's the economic argument. And the political one.

Just the small matter of being the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Union with Wales still counts. They don't have enough MPs to tilt the balance.

Rather a lot of actual Scots in senior roles in the party, don't you think?

That might change if Wee Jimmy Krankie gets her way.

kingstongraham

kingstongraham said:

Can anyone articulate what any of the parties' core philosophy is? What are they there for?

(Except the SNP)

Not one?

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

kingstongraham said:

Can anyone articulate what any of the parties' core philosophy is? What are they there for?

(Except the SNP)

Not one?

Kinda been my point for a while now.
Usually met by whataboutism. We need somebody to step up, and it isn't me.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

That's the economic argument. And the political one.

Just the small matter of being the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Union with Wales still counts. They don't have enough MPs to tilt the balance.

Rather a lot of actual Scots in senior roles in the party, don't you think?

That might change if Wee Jimmy Krankie gets her way.

Scots that live in England. Pretty sure the current bunch are hardcore unionists, Gove in particular.

briantrumpet

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

kingstongraham said:

Can anyone articulate what any of the parties' core philosophy is? What are they there for?

(Except the SNP)

Not one?

Kinda been my point for a while now.
Usually met by whataboutism. We need somebody to step up, and it isn't me.

Not least the Tories now, as their raison d'être of the past four years (Brexit) has not only become a 'boring' administrative job (making it work), but one with lots of problematic internal political decisions, as opposed to the sexy 'big idea'. My guess is that the Hard Brexit loons will hope to make every little choice one to get further away from Europe, whatever the cost.

To an extent, any opposition party at this stage in a 5-year term can afford not to be too precise in objectives, as their main job is to scrutinise and oppose the government - I guess that Starmer will be trying to reinforce that it is no longer Momentum/Corbyn-led, and hoping that being seen as not-scary-Labour will gain support from those who recognise the serial Tory incompetence and firefighting.

Lib Dems - no idea. At the moment, I can't see them being anything more than, at best, a fringe party. I don't think they even know what their purpose is.

rick_chasey

With Scottish independence, what is it about the SNP logic that is materially different to Brexit logic?

morstar

rick_chasey said:

With Scottish independence, what is it about the SNP logic that is materially different to Brexit logic?

Zilch, I think the forum generally holds that opinion that they are materially the same.

Although some people embrace one whilst hating the other.

TheBigBean

I'm intrigued how many SNP supporters voted for Brexit.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

With Scottish independence, what is it about the SNP logic that is materially different to Brexit logic?

None that I know of. I've been saying for 5 years that it is the same arguments both sets of logic. Sovereignty v economy. We know how that turned out with Brexit.
The difference this time round is the claim that remaining is the only way to stay in the EU has been removed.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

I'm intrigued how many SNP supporters voted for Brexit.

Quite a few - I’d even bet a majority.

rick_chasey

The main difference I can see fwiw is Brexit was pushed by people to the right of the centre of Brussels, whereas with Scottish independence it is generally people to the left of Westminster

morstar

rick_chasey said:

The main difference I can see fwiw is Brexit was pushed by people to the right of the centre of Brussels, whereas with Scottish independence it is generally people to the left of Westminster

An interesting point. But ultimately, I think the ideologies of the agitators are different, the mechanisms and objectives are what overlap.

Con brexiteers are driven by a capitalist small state wet dream whereas SNP are driven by cultural desire.

SNP is Xenophobia first, economics second. Tory Brexit was personal economics first, Xenophobia second.

And to take SC’s point about no economic case for Brexit, as a nation, no there isn’t, for capitalist, low standard individuals, there is.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

I'm intrigued how many SNP supporters voted for Brexit.

Quite a few - I’d even bet a majority.

Going by what my relatives say, and my FB feed then I think it is the complete opposite. Very much a No/Leave v Yes/Remain.

rick_chasey

Meh I think you’re casing too narrow a brush over both.

I think a big determining factor on how much you rate the EU / Westminster if you’re British / Scottish depends on if the mode political centre of the larger group is closer to your politics then the equivalent in your region.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Meh I think you’re casing too narrow a brush over both.

I think a big determining factor on how much you rate the EU / Westminster if you’re British / Scottish depends on if the mode political centre of the larger group is closer to your politics then the equivalent in your region.

I think you are over analysing it and applying too much logic.
If Brexit taught you anything it should be that logic does not apply.

surrey_commuter

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Meh I think you’re casing too narrow a brush over both.

I think a big determining factor on how much you rate the EU / Westminster if you’re British / Scottish depends on if the mode political centre of the larger group is closer to your politics then the equivalent in your region.

I think you are over analysing it and applying too much logic.
If Brexit taught you anything it should be that logic does not apply.

Or more politely that it is head vs heart

orraloon

Posh old Etonian buffoons playing the divisive cards don't register well in a place where such creatures have been lording it for centuries.

elbowloh

Didn't Scotland vote remain by about 62%? If so, it's hard to believe that a majority of SNP voters voted leave.