Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Stevo_666

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

That wasn't what you were saying eight months ago when you were giving the excuse of the terrible governance during the pandemic that 'at least they weren't Corbyn'.

kingstongraham

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

I have heard worse arguments, there is a logic to at least Corbyn did not lose Hartlepool

Farage lost Hartlepool for the tories in 2019. 37% Labour, 28% Conservative, 25% Brexit party.

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Which only matters if all you care about is your Party winning.

Say you got into politics and because you thought that society was unfair and it could not be left to the market to distribute wealth in a fair and just manner. Say you saw the solution as trusting the Govt to spend your money more wisely than you, say you thought that Govt’s were better at picking and choosing industry winners and losers?

Our idealistic working class hero may have joined the Labour Party to achieve those goals and they may have not delivered but he still has his big state socialist utopian dream

Are you talking about free broadband here?

"all you care about your Party winning" is a misread. The concern here is to have a reasonable balance and choice. Big majorities lead to poor policies and poor behaviour by the incumbent party. If it gets to the stage where there is one 50% ish party and a bunch of 20% ish parties, you effectively only have a one party state and people start voting for their leader because they feel that's the only vote that will count.

We are seeing just this in Scotland, where we have an underperforming old and tired government, that is fiscally taking Scotland ever further from its stated goal of joining the EU, by offering election baubles - many of which this time around are only costed from the covid recovery fund but presented to the gormless as being long term.

If you hear vox pops, people are saying they don't want independence, don't want a referendum in the next couple of years, but are voting SNP because they don't see any other option. So, er, you'll get a referendum then won't you?

Seems to me that there's something of an analogue in the whole UK.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

That wasn't what you were saying eight months ago when you were giving the excuse of the terrible governance during the pandemic that 'at least they weren't Corbyn'.

A wins a win Rick.

What excuse do you have for the Lib Dems performance? 349 votes FFS, you could have done better of you'd called yourselves The Count Binface party.

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

I have heard worse arguments, there is a logic to at least Corbyn did not lose Hartlepool

Not really, losing the seat might show Starmer isn't getting his point heard (although I've said before that it feels like normal politics has been on hold since Covid started). However, suggesting it is a sign that getting rid of Corbyn who lost them 80 seats or so was a mistake is lunacy but then I wouldn't expect anything else from Momentum.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

That wasn't what you were saying eight months ago when you were giving the excuse of the terrible governance during the pandemic that 'at least they weren't Corbyn'.

A wins a win Rick.

What excuse do you have for the Lib Dems performance? 349 votes FFS, you could have done better of you'd called yourselves The Count Binface party.

I wasn't part of the campaign, I don't live there. Do I need to provide an excuse?

Would you like it in the form of football punditry?

kingstongraham

Why would anyone vote lib dem in fptp in that constituency? I guess the candidate should probably vote for themselves.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

That wasn't what you were saying eight months ago when you were giving the excuse of the terrible governance during the pandemic that 'at least they weren't Corbyn'.

A wins a win Rick.

What excuse do you have for the Lib Dems performance? 349 votes FFS, you could have done better of you'd called yourselves The Count Binface party.

I wasn't part of the campaign, I don't live there. Do I need to provide an excuse?

Would you like it in the form of football punditry?

And I wasn't involved in tory party governance, so your point is...?

As said elsewhere, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Which only matters if all you care about is your Party winning.

Say you got into politics and because you thought that society was unfair and it could not be left to the market to distribute wealth in a fair and just manner. Say you saw the solution as trusting the Govt to spend your money more wisely than you, say you thought that Govt’s were better at picking and choosing industry winners and losers?

Our idealistic working class hero may have joined the Labour Party to achieve those goals and they may have not delivered but he still has his big state socialist utopian dream

Are you talking about free broadband here?

"all you care about your Party winning" is a misread. The concern here is to have a reasonable balance and choice. Big majorities lead to poor policies and poor behaviour by the incumbent party. If it gets to the stage where there is one 50% ish party and a bunch of 20% ish parties, you effectively only have a one party state and people start voting for their leader because they feel that's the only vote that will count.

We are seeing just this in Scotland, where we have an underperforming old and tired government, that is fiscally taking Scotland ever further from its stated goal of joining the EU, by offering election baubles - many of which this time around are only costed from the covid recovery fund but presented to the gormless as being long term.

If you hear vox pops, people are saying they don't want independence, don't want a referendum in the next couple of years, but are voting SNP because they don't see any other option. So, er, you'll get a referendum then won't you?

Seems to me that there's something of an analogue in the whole UK.

"Hello me!"

Same tune. Slightly different words.

First.Aspect

David Milliband. We need David.

And up here, heaven forbid that I'm championing a tory, but someone should have a stiff word with Ruth Davison and tell her that the smug spotty oik who has succeeded her really isn't any good and she knows it.

Sarwar seems to be not an idiot so he needs time. The party is still clearly populated by complete tw@ts though, because they only had a leadership race about 48 hours before people made up their minds, so his campaign has been beset by "who is he?"

But honestly, it is getting to the stage now where Scotland needs another solely Scottish party aligned with one of the big two in England, like they do in NI. They should be called something flagrantly Scottish to confuse all of the idiots who think that voting SNP is patriotic because it has "Scottish" in the title.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

Why would anyone vote lib dem in fptp in that constituency? I guess the candidate should probably vote for themselves.

2,904 people voted for Sam Lee an independent. 468 people voted for the Heritage party. 7th place is a poor showing.

Conservative Jill Mortimer 15,529
Labour Paul Williams 8,589
Independent Sam Lee 2,904
Heritage Claire Martin 468
Reform UK John Prescott[e] 368
Green Rachel Featherstone 358
Liberal Democrats Andrew Hagon 349
Independent Thelma Walker[a] 250
No description Chris Killick 248
North East Hilton Dawson 163
Independent W. Ralph Ward-Jackson 157
Women's Equality Gemma Evans 140
Independent Adam Gaines 126
SDP David Bettney 108
Monster Raving Loony The Incredible Flying Brick 104
Freedom Alliance Steve Jack 72

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

Why would anyone vote lib dem in fptp in that constituency? I guess the candidate should probably vote for themselves.

2,904 people voted for Sam Lee an independent. 468 people voted for the Heritage party. 7th place is a poor showing.

Conservative Jill Mortimer 15,529
Labour Paul Williams 8,589
Independent Sam Lee 2,904
Heritage Claire Martin 468
Reform UK John Prescott[e] 368
Green Rachel Featherstone 358
Liberal Democrats Andrew Hagon 349
Independent Thelma Walker[a] 250
No description Chris Killick 248
North East Hilton Dawson 163
Independent W. Ralph Ward-Jackson 157
Women's Equality Gemma Evans 140
Independent Adam Gaines 126
SDP David Bettney 108
Monster Raving Loony The Incredible Flying Brick 104
Freedom Alliance Steve Jack 72

I don't know who Sam Lee is, and it's clearly a bad performance, but anyone who didn't want a Tory, but voted anything other than Labour knew they were wasting their vote.

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

Why would anyone vote lib dem in fptp in that constituency? I guess the candidate should probably vote for themselves.

2,904 people voted for Sam Lee an independent. 468 people voted for the Heritage party. 7th place is a poor showing.

Conservative Jill Mortimer 15,529
Labour Paul Williams 8,589
Independent Sam Lee 2,904
Heritage Claire Martin 468
Reform UK John Prescott[e] 368
Green Rachel Featherstone 358
Liberal Democrats Andrew Hagon 349
Independent Thelma Walker[a] 250
No description Chris Killick 248
North East Hilton Dawson 163
Independent W. Ralph Ward-Jackson 157
Women's Equality Gemma Evans 140
Independent Adam Gaines 126
SDP David Bettney 108
Monster Raving Loony The Incredible Flying Brick 104
Freedom Alliance Steve Jack 72

I don't know who Sam Lee is, and it's clearly a bad performance, but anyone who didn't want a Tory, but voted anything other than Labour knew they were wasting their vote.

West Brom's assistant manager? Good move to run for parliament, because he'll be unemployed soon.

I'll get my coat.

DeVlaeminck

Sam Lee (googled her) seems to have campaigned on the basis that the MP should push the interests of Hartlepool rather than on national policies. Not sure what we can read into her partial success other than people feel Hartlepool misses out and a general feeling that the major parties aren't representing the town - maybe that people have lost faith in them - though a low turnout probably says that more (was it low I'm just adding up the figures and thinking it looks low).

Jezyboy

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

That wasn't what you were saying eight months ago when you were giving the excuse of the terrible governance during the pandemic that 'at least they weren't Corbyn'.

A wins a win Rick.

What excuse do you have for the Lib Dems performance? 349 votes FFS, you could have done better of you'd called yourselves The Count Binface party.

I wasn't part of the campaign, I don't live there. Do I need to provide an excuse?

Would you like it in the form of football punditry?

The problem with the lib dems is they try and walk it in.

pangolin

Stevo_666

Jezyboy said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Pross said:

So Momentum are suggesting the defeat in Hartlepool is some sort of evidence that getting rid of Corbyn and moving away from the hard left was a mistake. Have they forgotten how many "safe" seats they lost in the last GE under Corbyn's leadership?

Corbyn, like Michael Foot, has killed Labour as an electable party for the forseeable future.

Job done by @Stevo_666

Best 3 quid I ever spent Labour got spanked again. I promise not to talk of an 80 seat majority again (unless the next by election goes the other way

That wasn't what you were saying eight months ago when you were giving the excuse of the terrible governance during the pandemic that 'at least they weren't Corbyn'.

A wins a win Rick.

What excuse do you have for the Lib Dems performance? 349 votes FFS, you could have done better of you'd called yourselves The Count Binface party.

I wasn't part of the campaign, I don't live there. Do I need to provide an excuse?

Would you like it in the form of football punditry?

The problem with the lib dems is they try and walk it in.

At least they just about have enough MP's to make up a football team. Sadly they've got no substitutes

Stevo_666

Just watching the news and looks like the local elections are headed the same way as Hartlepool. I love the sound of leftie butt getting a good kicking

DeVlaeminck

The Teeside mayoral election the Tory candidate got something like 3/4s of the vote. Teeside!!

Jezyboy

DeVlaeminck said:

The Teeside mayoral election the Tory candidate got something like 3/4s of the vote. Teeside!!

From the Wikipedia page of the Tory Mayor: Houchen promised to bring Teesside International Airport (then Durham Tees Valley Airport) back into its previous name and public ownership.

Classic tory policy that.

Pross

DeVlaeminck said:

The Teeside mayoral election the Tory candidate got something like 3/4s of the vote. Teeside!!

There were a barely comprehensible father and son on BBC this morning and from what I could work out their reason for voting Tory was that Labour have 'wrecked it' citing reduced services at their local hospital and no cells at the local police station.

I really don't know how you get through to people who have decided to vote for the Party that has been in power for 11 years due to services being cut.

It's like Trump convincing people to vote for him, a billionaire, to teach a lesson to the rich and powerful.

morstar

Pross said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The Teeside mayoral election the Tory candidate got something like 3/4s of the vote. Teeside!!

There were a barely comprehensible father and son on BBC this morning and from what I could work out their reason for voting Tory was that Labour have 'wrecked it' citing reduced services at their local hospital and no cells at the local police station.

I really don't know how you get through to people who have decided to vote for the Party that has been in power for 11 years due to services being cut.

It's like Trump convincing people to vote for him, a billionaire, to teach a lesson to the rich and powerful.

Referenced the same thing on Tory thread. It just defies logic.

pangolin

Do you think it's clear to people how much power the local council has vs the government?

Dorset_Boy

I think the Teeside mayor has been well thought of by pretty much all of the political spectrum over the last few years, so it was a bigger surprise him winning last time than this time.

shortfall

https://unherd.com/2021/05/labour-isnt-working/

Paul Embery nails it in this brilliant analysis.

Pross

Dorset_Boy said:

I think the Teeside mayor has been well thought of by pretty much all of the political spectrum over the last few years, so it was a bigger surprise him winning last time than this time.

How does he get an easy ride over local issues when the constituency MP from an opposition is held to account though?

Jezyboy

shortfall said:

https://unherd.com/2021/05/labour-isnt-working/

Paul Embery nails it in this brilliant analysis.

I think he rather glosses over how Labour keep the metropolitan "elite" happy whilst appealing to the "working" class.

It's no good winning Hartlepool if all you've done is swap it for Islington.

elbowloh

There are still lots of working class people who are voting for them, for example their numbers in Hartlepool dropped 25%. Why do those people continue to vote labour?

john80

Jezyboy said:

shortfall said:

https://unherd.com/2021/05/labour-isnt-working/

Paul Embery nails it in this brilliant analysis.

I think he rather glosses over how Labour keep the metropolitan "elite" happy whilst appealing to the "working" class.

It's no good winning Hartlepool if all you've done is swap it for Islington.

The bottom line is they can't do both. They need a cohesive strategy for how both groups gain. Currently the Tory party have a strategy that people will give them another ten years to do called levelling up. Whether they manage it is another matter. Politics is mainly about timing. Blair would have had no chance against thatcher much in the same way Hague had no chance against Blair. You can be as good as you like but if the timing is not right you might as well go off and play golf.