Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

You don’t think it will all kick off when the detail in The FTA becomes more apparent.

Or the people who saw it as a necessary compromise on the route to a pure Brexit?

And all the people in the Tory Party who backed Boris over Europe but think he is a cvnt?

I think you underestimate how single track these people are.

I think it will be limited. If you look at who is bellyaching (Mark Francois, David Davis?) its hardly mainstream stuff.

Care to comment on Labours problems on the European front? That was the main point I was making.

rick_chasey

What do you envisage as labour’s “European” problem?

It is more resolved for them than for the Tories

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

What do you envisage as labour’s “European” problem?

It is more resolved for them than for the Tories

See the article above. I can quote the whole thing if you want.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/

Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.

On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”

Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.

“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.

But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.

And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.

At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.

All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.

Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."

There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.

Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.

The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolved

That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...

Was resolved 27 years ago too.

I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?

It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.

As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.

I never said want but have predicted that it will face some major challenges for example around the single currency which also links into whether they go for fuller integration with proper fiscal transfers etc - which is not necessarily what many member states and/or their electorate want.

rick_chasey

The labour line pre corona was good. “Brexit is done, we’ve left”

They can now also say “we voted for the deal”

Pro Euro voters will probably still vote labour as who else will they vote for?

Your article is wishful thinking.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

The labour line pre corona was good. “Brexit is done, we’ve left”

They can now also say “we voted for the deal”

Pro Euro voters will probably still vote labour as who else will they vote for?

Your article is wishful thinking.

Maybe, although so are quite a few of the comments above

IMO Labour still have a major gap to bridge between the right on metropolitan lefties (more likely to be remain) and the more traditional labour voters (more likely to be leave).

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/

Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.

On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”

Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.

“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.

But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.

And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.

At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.

All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.

Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."

There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.

Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.

The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolved

That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...

yet what?

Still the party within a party was/is not satisfied. They never will be.
The Conservative Party should learn from Labour. It will never be resolved until they are kicked out.

kingstongraham

Will the conservatives be able to get some people into government who aren't totally incompetent now?

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

The labour line pre corona was good. “Brexit is done, we’ve left”

They can now also say “we voted for the deal”

Pro Euro voters will probably still vote labour as who else will they vote for?

Your article is wishful thinking.

Maybe, although so are quite a few of the comments above

IMO Labour still have a major gap to bridge between the right on metropolitan lefties (more likely to be remain) and the more traditional labour voters (more likely to be leave).

True. Although in moving to attract those voters, the Conservatives have left a lot of their centre right economically conservative/socially liberal support behind.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/

Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.

On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”

Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.

“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.

But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.

And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.

At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.

All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.

Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."

There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.

Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.

The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolved

That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...

yet what?

Still the party within a party was/is not satisfied. They never will be.
The Conservative Party should learn from Labour. It will never be resolved until they are kicked out.

Like I said, much less of an issue now than it was before for the Tories. Whereas Labour now has more of an issue, which was my point.

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

Will the conservatives be able to get some people into government who aren't totally incompetent now?

"Our incompetents are better than your incompetents" is hardly good for the Country, nor anything to celebrate.

Stevo_666

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

Will the conservatives be able to get some people into government who aren't totally incompetent now?

"Our incompetents are better than your incompetents" is hardly good for the Country, nor anything to celebrate.

Suggest a viable alternative then.

john80

ballysmate said:

The SNP are doing their best to make Labour look sensible.
Having said that a No Deal Brexit would be disastrous for Scotland, on the same day they vowed to vote against the deal and thus leave on WTO terms.

It was one of those rare times the Tories should have called their bluff for a laugh.

Stevo_666

john80 said:

ballysmate said:

The SNP are doing their best to make Labour look sensible.
Having said that a No Deal Brexit would be disastrous for Scotland, on the same day they vowed to vote against the deal and thus leave on WTO terms.

It was one of those rare times the Tories should have called their bluff for a laugh.

I'm sure we can have lots of fun with the SNP denying them a second 'once in a generation' referendum.

rick_chasey

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/

Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.

On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”

Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.

“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.

But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.

And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.

At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.

All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.

Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."

There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.

Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.

The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolved

That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...

yet what?

Still the party within a party was/is not satisfied. They never will be.
The Conservative Party should learn from Labour. It will never be resolved until they are kicked out.

Like I said, much less of an issue now than it was before for the Tories. Whereas Labour now has more of an issue, which was my point.

I think it's a momentary truce, but we'll see in the next few years.

The same basic tension between the two wings of the party has been there since the 19th century at least.

john80

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

john80

Stevo_666 said:

john80 said:

ballysmate said:

The SNP are doing their best to make Labour look sensible.
Having said that a No Deal Brexit would be disastrous for Scotland, on the same day they vowed to vote against the deal and thus leave on WTO terms.

It was one of those rare times the Tories should have called their bluff for a laugh.

I'm sure we can have lots of fun with the SNP denying them a second 'once in a generation' referendum.

I am sure the struggle will be real.

skyblueamateur

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

The Union is already nearly broken with the customs border down the Irish Sea.

I don't understand why there is not a lot more fury from the Leave side on this.

pblakeney

skyblueamateur said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

The Union is already nearly broken with the customs border down the Irish Sea.

I don't understand why there is not a lot more fury from the Leave side on this.

Doesn't affect or interest them.
In a nutshell, England First.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

Will the conservatives be able to get some people into government who aren't totally incompetent now?

"Our incompetents are better than your incompetents" is hardly good for the Country, nor anything to celebrate.

Suggest a viable alternative then.

It's a good point you make. I meant maybe the conservatives can put some competent conservatives in now that support for a no deal brexit isn't the main qualification. But you're right - they all got kicked out in 2019.

john80

skyblueamateur said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

The Union is already nearly broken with the customs border down the Irish Sea.

I don't understand why there is not a lot more fury from the Leave side on this.

Northern Ireland is pretty unique in that half want to be Irish and half want to be British. Neither party appears to want to be its own country.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

Will the conservatives be able to get some people into government who aren't totally incompetent now?

"Our incompetents are better than your incompetents" is hardly good for the Country, nor anything to celebrate.

Suggest a viable alternative then.

It's a good point you make. I meant maybe the conservatives can put some competent conservatives in now that support for a no deal brexit isn't the main qualification. But you're right - they all got kicked out in 2019.

Good smartarse reply I think you know the point I was making.

skyblueamateur

john80 said:

skyblueamateur said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

The Union is already nearly broken with the customs border down the Irish Sea.

I don't understand why there is not a lot more fury from the Leave side on this.

Northern Ireland is pretty unique in that half want to be Irish and half want to be British. Neither party appears to want to be its own country.

And the trade deal has split the Union by putting a customs border down the Irish Sea.

Watching Sammy Wilson yesterday was particularly strange, euphoric about leaving the EU but the realisation of what that meant finally sinking in. Very peculiar.

TheBigBean

skyblueamateur said:

john80 said:

skyblueamateur said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

The Union is already nearly broken with the customs border down the Irish Sea.

I don't understand why there is not a lot more fury from the Leave side on this.

Northern Ireland is pretty unique in that half want to be Irish and half want to be British. Neither party appears to want to be its own country.

And the trade deal has split the Union by putting a customs border down the Irish Sea.

Watching Sammy Wilson yesterday was particularly strange, euphoric about leaving the EU but the realisation of what that meant finally sinking in. Very peculiar.

The vote is only four years away.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

I think the unification of Ireland will be a slow steady process that will last at least a decade.

Scotland just looks like a mirror image of Brexit with the Leavers on here arguing the economic lunacy of leaving a larger Union.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

That's the economic argument. And the political one.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

Surely it can not have escaped the notice of parts of the Tory Party that they will be in Govt for the foreseeable future without the phalanx of anti-Tory Scottish seats. Plus without Scotland and NI there probably would be a £350m a week dividend.

That's the economic argument. And the political one.

Just the small matter of being the Conservative and Unionist Party.

pangolin

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

Hahahaha. Yes, no way the public could be that stupid right? I'm sure they'll all understand the border and trading implications rather than voting on principal.

pblakeney

pangolin said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

The main thing is what happens with the Union break up to be honest.

There will be not union breakup. They had one chance and missed it. Rejoining the EU is not a vote winner on its own and when the details come out such as border with main trading partner and full adoption of the Euro become realities only 30% loonies will vote for this. The world has changed so to speak.

Hahahaha. Yes, no way the public could be that stupid right? I'm sure they'll all understand the border and trading implications rather than voting on principal.

Sovereignty innit.
Sound familiar?