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I was chatting to my mate who lives in Staines about this the other weekend where he was pointing this out as his council is a similar position. Essentially his council has become a property landlord mainly of commercial properties to make a profit to fund their main services. One opportunity is to convert their properties into residential and either rent them or sell them. This is probably their only option to get out of the hole that the contraction in office space if it continues will cause.0
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I mean just imagine the shambles if Corbyn had got into power.pangolin said:Thank heavens the Tories are in power.
Oh, we don't need to imagine. Just the colour is different. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/12/boris-johnson-on-last-chance-say-tory-mps-after-lee-cain-row0 -
These blxxdy unelected Whitehall bureaucrats telling us what to do! Take Back Lack Of Control.0
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They all seem to be doing it. I was chatting to a guy at a local council I'm working with and he was telling me about a leisure development in the neighbouring council area they've bought. I couldn't understand it as a commercial landlord hadn't been able to get a tenant for around 5 years since the last one (a major leisure chain) went bust. Since that the neighbouring cinema has closed so that will lead to less oppoy for linked business.john80 said:I was chatting to my mate who lives in Staines about this the other weekend where he was pointing this out as his council is a similar position. Essentially his council has become a property landlord mainly of commercial properties to make a profit to fund their main services. One opportunity is to convert their properties into residential and either rent them or sell them. This is probably their only option to get out of the hole that the contraction in office space if it continues will cause.
They are also getting into housing development but that makes more sense both in terms of creating additional social housing and making money from open market sales providing they get people in who know how to deliver efficiently.0 -
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As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast.""I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The SNP are doing their best to make Labour look sensible.
Having said that a No Deal Brexit would be disastrous for Scotland, on the same day they vowed to vote against the deal and thus leave on WTO terms.2 -
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.0 -
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You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
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I don’t think he is.surrey_commuter said:
You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
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The 100,000 daft racists who elect the leader will hate the detail in the FTA and will hate his use of the MMT. Knives will be sharpened and he will be vulnerable to opinion poll malaise.rick_chasey said:
I don’t think he is.surrey_commuter said:
You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
He is a charlatan and the more people see of him the more they will dislike him.0 -
Meh. He’s a cheerleader in a world where facts or track record are irrelevant and he understands Goebbels when he said the bigger the lie the more people believe it.surrey_commuter said:
The 100,000 daft racists who elect the leader will hate the detail in the FTA and will hate his use of the MMT. Knives will be sharpened and he will be vulnerable to opinion poll malaise.rick_chasey said:
I don’t think he is.surrey_commuter said:
You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
He is a charlatan and the more people see of him the more they will dislike him.1 -
rick_chasey said:
Meh. He’s a cheerleader in a world where facts or track record are irrelevant and he understands Goebbels when he said the bigger the lie the more people believe it.surrey_commuter said:
The 100,000 daft racists who elect the leader will hate the detail in the FTA and will hate his use of the MMT. Knives will be sharpened and he will be vulnerable to opinion poll malaise.rick_chasey said:
I don’t think he is.surrey_commuter said:
You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
He is a charlatan and the more people see of him the more they will dislike him.
I can see both of these points. It's going to be interesting to see which way it goes. As discussed before, there isn't a long list of capable replacements, though Sunak might tick more of the boxes for the Legacy of Thatcher title, and doesn't seem to suffer from as many flaws as Johnson.1 -
That's setting a particularly low bar.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Meh. He’s a cheerleader in a world where facts or track record are irrelevant and he understands Goebbels when he said the bigger the lie the more people believe it.surrey_commuter said:
The 100,000 daft racists who elect the leader will hate the detail in the FTA and will hate his use of the MMT. Knives will be sharpened and he will be vulnerable to opinion poll malaise.rick_chasey said:
I don’t think he is.surrey_commuter said:
You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
He is a charlatan and the more people see of him the more they will dislike him.
I can see both of these points. It's going to be interesting to see which way it goes. As discussed before, there isn't a long list of capable replacements, though Sunak might tick more of the boxes for the Legacy of Thatcher title, and doesn't seem to suffer from as many flaws as Johnson.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I suspect sunak’s stock won’t be so high in 3-4 year’s time.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Meh. He’s a cheerleader in a world where facts or track record are irrelevant and he understands Goebbels when he said the bigger the lie the more people believe it.surrey_commuter said:
The 100,000 daft racists who elect the leader will hate the detail in the FTA and will hate his use of the MMT. Knives will be sharpened and he will be vulnerable to opinion poll malaise.rick_chasey said:
I don’t think he is.surrey_commuter said:
You don’t think the Tories will ditch an electoral liability?rick_chasey said:Think you’re being a bit over optimistic, SC
He is a charlatan and the more people see of him the more they will dislike him.
I can see both of these points. It's going to be interesting to see which way it goes. As discussed before, there isn't a long list of capable replacements, though Sunak might tick more of the boxes for the Legacy of Thatcher title, and doesn't seem to suffer from as many flaws as Johnson.
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You don’t think it will all kick off when the detail in The FTA becomes more apparent.
Or the people who saw it as a necessary compromise on the route to a pure Brexit?
And all the people in the Tory Party who backed Boris over Europe but think he is a cvnt?
I think you underestimate how single track these people are.0 -
Honestly I think the Tories have such a high floor going into any election they are at minimum 50% likely to get in. Regardless of performance.surrey_commuter said:You don’t think it will all kick off when the detail in The FTA becomes more apparent.
Or the people who saw it as a necessary compromise on the route to a pure Brexit?
And all the people in the Tory Party who backed Boris over Europe but think he is a cvnt?
I think you underestimate how single track these people are.
If things get really dire the po faced Starmer vibe might be welcome but I suspect because it’s the economy stupid he won’t be able to capitalise.
BoJo is also electoral mana. He gets so many votes as people trust his dishonest act as at least he’s honest about his dishonesty, rather than the real lying politicians who aren’t obvious about their lying.
His whole bit, including the hair is “you know that I don’t know much, and I know you know, so that’s ok. I don’t belittle you by telling you things I think you don’t understand. I’m on your level.”
You won’t get short complaining BoJo is a condescending politician.0 -
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.0 -
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.rjsterry said:
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.
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Doesn't that cut both ways? There are those with a lot of love for the EU.surrey_commuter said:
It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.rjsterry said:
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.5 -
Their is a huge misunderstanding on both sides but I think the assumption that the hatred is mirrored by a lot of love is misplaced.TheBigBean said:
Doesn't that cut both ways? There are those with a lot of love for the EU.surrey_commuter said:
It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.rjsterry said:
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.
Why do you think there is?0 -
What annoyed me was that it was the people who hated the way things were in this country that painted themselves as the patriots, and said those who were relatively happy living here hated our country.0
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Whether that is true or not, do you not see a fundamental difference between positively supporting something and cheering on what one hopes is the beginning of its downfall? The kind of idiot that only knows how to be against something is unlikely to ever be satisfied.TheBigBean said:
Doesn't that cut both ways? There are those with a lot of love for the EU.surrey_commuter said:
It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.rjsterry said:
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Whether that is true or not, do you not see a fundamental difference between positively supporting something and cheering on what one hopes is the beginning of its downfall? The kind of idiot that only knows how to be against something is unlikely to ever be satisfied.TheBigBean said:
Doesn't that cut both ways? There are those with a lot of love for the EU.surrey_commuter said:
It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.rjsterry said:
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.
And it comes back to the false dichotomy that the Eurosceptics successfully pushed: that it was a choice between 'loving' the UK or the EU. It's as ridiculous as asking whether I prefer Devon or England: one is part of the other, and it's entirely possible to like both, and indeed, being part of the EU.
Stevo was quite correct that Corbyn was a walking disaster, not least in that he didn't oppose the mis-framing of the question, as he wanted to take the UK out of the EU, albeit with completely different aims (creating a socialist utopia) and without the courage to nail his colours to the mast.
I simply don't understand the mentality that wants to belittle the EU at every turn, or seemingly to wish its demise: it would be like Cornwall gaining independence from the UK, and then wishing the UK to fail.0 -
This also applies to both sides of the debate.rjsterry said:
Whether that is true or not, do you not see a fundamental difference between positively supporting something and cheering on what one hopes is the beginning of its downfall? The kind of idiot that only knows how to be against something is unlikely to ever be satisfied.TheBigBean said:
Doesn't that cut both ways? There are those with a lot of love for the EU.surrey_commuter said:
It goes beyond Euroscepticism into blind hatred of the EU. If you assume that SteveO’s posts reflect the DT then the end game is wanting the EU to fail.rjsterry said:
I mean, if your only reason for entering politics is Euroscepticism then what else have you got?kingstongraham said:
Was resolved 27 years ago too.rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him.
As you say they have nothing else in their lives and will just carry on itching about the EU.1 -
yet what?rjsterry said:
That was resolved 4 years ago and yet...Stevo_666 said:
The main issue causing the infighting was whether we should stay in the EU. I'm not going too farout on a limb if I say that is resolvedsurrey_commuter said:
There is no way you think the Tory European issue is resolved.Stevo_666 said:As we move into a post EU 2021, spare a thought for poor old Labour now that the Tory European issue is effectively done:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/30/now-labours-turn-spend-decades-squabbling-europe/
Quote: "Keir Starmer is already tying himself up in knots as he seeks a formula on Europe that will satisfy both the pro-EU majority of Labour MPs, activists and 2019 voters and the lost Red Wall Leave voters he needs to win back.
On Christmas Eve, when reacting to news of Johnson’s deal, Starmer implied Labour would seek to rewrite it in office by surrendering some regained sovereignty for the prize of reduced trade friction with the EU. He told reporters he would seek to “improve on” the deal and would be “building” on it. The line was repeated by shadow cabinet member Rachel Reeves, who declared: “We will build on this foundation, working with our European neighbours.”
Yet Starmer’s inner-circle now appears to have woken up to the fact that this posture leaves him open to the electorally disabling charge that he is preparing to unpick Brexit. Overnight, in an interview with Labour’s house journal The Guardian, he has declared he would not in fact seek to make major changes to the UK-EU relationship. Indeed, he now says he might not even mention the issue in Labour’s election literature.
“We’ve left the EU and the Remain/Leave argument is over. Among the reasons for voting for the deal is to allow that closure,” says Sir Keir.
But is that going to satisfy the Red Wall given Starmer’s betrayal in 2019 of his earlier pledge to respect the verdict of the 2016 referendum? Hardly. It’s about as bankable as the young Tony Blair’s pledge in his 1983 election address to “negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs” – ie, not at all. It is well understood nowadays that these London lawyers will say almost anything to get elected.
And yet Starmer’s latest “Can’t touch this” EU policy is not going to satisfy his party’s many fanatical European integrationists either. One can already see the beginnings of a Rejoin movement in the responses of longtime EU-enthusiasts such as Ben Bradshaw, Neil Coyle, Chris Bryant and Lord Adonis.
At the 2019 Labour conference, Starmer – who was then the party’s Brexit spokesman – received a mid-speech standing ovation for coming out in support of a second referendum to call off Brexit.
All being well on the Covid front, party conferences will resume next autumn. One can be sure that Starmer won’t get a similar response from activists if he tells them to accept the Johnson settlement on Europe. Indeed, I’m betting that the biggest cheers of the whole gathering will be heard at the fringe meeting of the European Movement when MPs try to get a Rejoin bandwagon rolling.
Meanwhile at the Conservative conference Johnson will be cheered to the rafters and the old order of EU-philes will be notable only by their absence, save for Mrs May floating around like a ghost at the feast."
Starmer just needs to keep quiet and wait for Boris to implode. The only (large) risk is that the Tories will ditch him."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
