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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Depends what working well means.

    If you mean serving your own interests at the expense of overall national net gain then yes.

    If labour had better leaders the Tories would not be so sh!t themselves.
    Sh1t is relative as I'm sure you will be aware as the member of a fringe party.

    In this case I believe my own interests and those of the nation are aligned. Would you want Corbyn in number 10? (It's OK, I already know the answer...)

    Not a free marketer but self serving rentier. Standard.
    Whatever makes you think I'm one of those?

    Nice use use of fancy words btw.

    It’s a real bugbear of mine. When it really matters, people on the right are often not actually pro competiton but pro whatever suits them.

    The whole advantage the right has is that proper competition has a net gain for everyone.

    But instead the focus got on making those at the top of organisations richer and individualised incentives for people to “make it” rather than focusing on keeping competiton as high a possible for the net good.

    Protecting a firm that has a monopoly because it’s created a bunch of billionaires rather than making sure newer entrants have a fair crack if they’re good enough.

    Same applies here to politics. Both labour and Tories and indeed everyone benefits when they all put their best and most able people in the most important positions. A better Labour Party makes for a better Tory Party for everyone.

    Instead, having Corbyn as leader has allowed the Tories to sink into their worst and most destructive habits, safe in the knowledge the other half is unelectable.

    For a business equivalent, I can continue to rip off my customers because they’re not gonna go anywhere else.

    Understand the real value of your ideology for the net good, rather than your own self serving interest.
    I dont care if you do have a chip on your shoulder about it.

    You called me a rentier (so we all know you're a well educated job salesman) when I've already stated I'm all for competition and all I'm doing is competing. If you don't like the methods, tough.

    Anyway, Sadiq has it right:
    https://www.itv.com/news/london/2019-02-18/sadiq-khan-labour-shockingly-poor-at-dealing-with-anti-semitism/

    "History tells us that when the Labour Party splits, it leads to the Conservative Party winning the next election and the one after that and the one after that."

    – SADIQ KHAN, MAYOR OF LONDON

    Bring it on!

    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Depends what working well means.

    If you mean serving your own interests at the expense of overall national net gain then yes.

    If labour had better leaders the Tories would not be so sh!t themselves.

    I am not sure how weakening business confidence serves anybody’s interest.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Depends what working well means.

    If you mean serving your own interests at the expense of overall national net gain then yes.

    If labour had better leaders the Tories would not be so sh!t themselves.

    I am not sure how weakening business confidence serves anybody’s interest.

    It's mostly weakened because of who the leader is and the direction he has taken the party.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    After Brexit, they won't have to worry about tear themselves apart over Europe in the third term will they?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:

    TM seems to be fast-forwarding the third term. Which is probably best for all of us..
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:

    TM seems to be fast-forwarding the third term. Which is probably best for all of us..
    Yep, it's the Libs Dems' big chance. As David Steele once said: "Go back to your constituencies - and prepare for government!" :lol:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Ballysmate wrote:
    After Brexit, they won't have to worry about tear themselves apart over Europe in the third term will they?

    I would hazard a prediction that Brexit will still be an issue in 2022. The Eurosceptics kept at it for 40 years after the first referendum.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    You think there will be an appetite to rejoin the EU, given that new members will have to adopt the Euro?
    We voted to leave the EU, given the opt outs, limited as they were, negotiated by Cameron and you think we will want to join under less favourable terms?
    Dream on!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Ballysmate wrote:
    You think there will be an appetite to rejoin the EU, given that new members will have to adopt the Euro?
    We voted to leave the EU, given the opt outs, limited as they were, negotiated by Cameron and you think we will want to join under less favourable terms?
    Dream on!
    Who knows? What I predicted was that we won't be done with Brexit before the next GE. Whoever takes over from May will disappoint one side of the party or the other and on it will go.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    rjsterry wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    You think there will be an appetite to rejoin the EU, given that new members will have to adopt the Euro?
    We voted to leave the EU, given the opt outs, limited as they were, negotiated by Cameron and you think we will want to join under less favourable terms?
    Dream on!
    Who knows? What I predicted was that we won't be done with Brexit before the next GE. Whoever takes over from May will disappoint one side of the party or the other and on it will go.

    If we assume that we get a A50 extension, it will be for months, not until 2022.
  • sgt.pepper
    sgt.pepper Posts: 300
    rjsterry wrote:
    Blair became an MP the year Foot stepped down so don't think there was any need to keep his mouth shut.

    Still had to campaign under Foot.

    And here' a photo I found googling to see if I had remembered wrong. Definitely worth a chuckle.

    RoTST8k.jpg
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited February 2019
    ... Wrong thread...
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Ballysmate wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    You think there will be an appetite to rejoin the EU, given that new members will have to adopt the Euro?
    We voted to leave the EU, given the opt outs, limited as they were, negotiated by Cameron and you think we will want to join under less favourable terms?
    Dream on!
    Who knows? What I predicted was that we won't be done with Brexit before the next GE. Whoever takes over from May will disappoint one side of the party or the other and on it will go.

    If we assume that we get a A50 extension, it will be for months, not until 2022.

    We seem to have switched threads here but we haven't even started on the future relationship. On the basis of the last two years are you expecting that to be wrapped up quickly? The WA is so open ended that May will have to pick a course and both sides of the party will try to steer it towards their preferred goal.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Sgt.Pepper wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Blair became an MP the year Foot stepped down so don't think there was any need to keep his mouth shut.

    Still had to campaign under Foot.

    And here' a photo I found googling to see if I had remembered wrong. Definitely worth a chuckle.

    RoTST8k.jpg

    My, Mr Blair, what big teeth you have. :shock:

    Fair enough.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    rjsterry wrote:
    Sgt.Pepper wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Blair became an MP the year Foot stepped down so don't think there was any need to keep his mouth shut.

    Still had to campaign under Foot.

    And here' a photo I found googling to see if I had remembered wrong. Definitely worth a chuckle.

    RoTST8k.jpg

    My, Mr Blair, what big teeth you have. :shock:

    Fair enough.

    All the better for lying through.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    Pretty solid support for the 7's decision across the public.

    Dzwb9jhXQAUjzEp.png

    Albeit they might be giving those answers for different reasons.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    If 7 leaving wasn't enough for waverers, the welcome mat put out to Derek Hatton might be the last straw for some. Similar to UKIP teaming up with Tommy Robinson.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Labour will also need to fight a by-election in my constituency following Paul Flynn's death but I can't see them losing it.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:
    Tuition fees and no chance of electoral reform?
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Did you know that one or two out of the 7 had low majorities? Iirc one had 1500. At least 5 had 20,000+ majorities. Put simply some are in constituencies that aren't safe labour seats but more marginal ones.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:
    Tuition fees and no chance of electoral reform?

    TBF, they gave that up for a quick hand shandy in the Number 10 gardens.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:
    Tuition fees and no chance of electoral reform?
    Good answer :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Did you know that one or two out of the 7 had low majorities? Iirc one had 1500. At least 5 had 20,000+ majorities. Put simply some are in constituencies that aren't safe labour seats but more marginal ones.
    True, but they don't have to put themselves up for re-election.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    On the other hand, history tells us that when Labour get pushed out, the Tories get in; have one decent crack; a second not so good innings with signs of trouble brewing; and a third term where they tear themselves apart over Europe :)
    15 years in power. What would a Lib Dem give for that? :wink:
    Tuition fees and no chance of electoral reform?

    TBF, they gave that up for a quick hand shandy in the Number 10 gardens.
    The good news is that the Tories are already in their third term (2010, 2015, 2017)
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Fact of the Day

    Derek Hatton is CEO of Bike2Work.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Did you know that one or two out of the 7 had low majorities? Iirc one had 1500. At least 5 had 20,000+ majorities. Put simply some are in constituencies that aren't safe labour seats but more marginal ones.

    Would a turncoat be better off in a marginal or ridiculously safe
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Did you know that one or two out of the 7 had low majorities? Iirc one had 1500. At least 5 had 20,000+ majorities. Put simply some are in constituencies that aren't safe labour seats but more marginal ones.

    Would a turncoat be better off in a marginal or ridiculously safe

    I'd be inclined to say, if leaving a party to go independent, you need a ridiculously safe seat... But have the 'personal vote' to hold on to enough of that majority to get over the line.

    The big factor would be tactical voting.

    Will Tory/ Lib Dem voters vote Independent to keep Labour out
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,550
    7 are now 8.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    rjsterry wrote:
    7 are now 8.
    8) Every little helps
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]

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