BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Where do I say equivalent? You're being a bit defensive there. Just saying that good PR can compensate for bad policies.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.
Most people will also have noticed that the EU has a free press and democracy, and that Russia's means of expansion is somewhat different from the EU's, but do carry on down your rabbit hole if you think the two are equivalent. It won't be long before you think the Express is going woke, at this rate.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
They're still chipping away at national decision making - I notice they have 'tax harmonisation' in their sights again.rjsterry said:
I doubt many could name a single EU policy that they object to. What you see as overreach, others see as a brake on crooks like Orban, although they could be a bit more forceful with the pedal. He needs EU money to survive and there's little point having common rules if they're not going to enforce them.Stevo_666 said:
So you think that was the only reason? And that EU policies and over-reach had nothing to do with it?rick_chasey said:
Well pretty much all of Europe embarked on some fairly serious austerity, right?Stevo_666 said:
Explain...rick_chasey said:Definitely has to do with austerity...!
And there is quite a lot of evidence about linking austerity politics with the rise in populist and extremist politics.
Now, if you actually had some understanding of the EU you'd recognise that the structure of the EU meant that the northern European penchant for austerity amplified the level of austerity inflicting on the South, but that's more a question about transmission rather than cause.
But there is quite a well researched school of thought that aligns all the different waves of far right population; anti-EU (UKIP, Lega Nord Sweden Democrats, the True Fins,) ethnonationalists ( Vlaams Belang, People's Party Front and Front National) and anti-islam/immigration parties (PVV, AfD, PiS) with their roots in various types of austerity.
The positive link between austerity and populist extreme is pretty well documented."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Where do I say equivalent? You're being a bit defensive there. Just saying that good PR can compensate for bad policies.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.
Most people will also have noticed that the EU has a free press and democracy, and that Russia's means of expansion is somewhat different from the EU's, but do carry on down your rabbit hole if you think the two are equivalent. It won't be long before you think the Express is going woke, at this rate.
You don't have to use the word. But your intent is clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalenceThis fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence does not bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
In any case, as someone might say, "my point stands" that you said that the EU was causing a rise in populism in the EU, when now you're admitting it's not, even if the reason is "good PR", as you claim.0 -
Hang on a minute what is with all the grinding negativity?Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
We held all the cards in the negotiations and got what we wanted. If they had not given in we would have walked off.1 -
Missing the point, but a bit late for that now.surrey_commuter said:
Hang on a minute what is with all the grinding negativity?Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
We held all the cards in the negotiations and got what we wanted. If they had not given in we would have walked off."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
If you read my first post I only said that Russia is an example of where PR can overcome bad policies, in the same way as itbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Where do I say equivalent? You're being a bit defensive there. Just saying that good PR can compensate for bad policies.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.
Most people will also have noticed that the EU has a free press and democracy, and that Russia's means of expansion is somewhat different from the EU's, but do carry on down your rabbit hole if you think the two are equivalent. It won't be long before you think the Express is going woke, at this rate.
You don't have to use the word. But your intent is clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalenceThis fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence does not bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
In any case, as someone might say, "my point stands" that you said that the EU was causing a rise in populism in the EU, when now you're admitting it's not, even if the reason is "good PR", as you claim.
can in the EU. Sometimes it helps to read my posts before going off on one."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
If you read my first post I only said that Russia is an example of where PR can overcome bad policies, in the same way as itbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Where do I say equivalent? You're being a bit defensive there. Just saying that good PR can compensate for bad policies.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.
Most people will also have noticed that the EU has a free press and democracy, and that Russia's means of expansion is somewhat different from the EU's, but do carry on down your rabbit hole if you think the two are equivalent. It won't be long before you think the Express is going woke, at this rate.
You don't have to use the word. But your intent is clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalenceThis fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence does not bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
In any case, as someone might say, "my point stands" that you said that the EU was causing a rise in populism in the EU, when now you're admitting it's not, even if the reason is "good PR", as you claim.
can in the EU. Sometimes it helps to read my posts before going off on one.
Thanks, I did. You chose Russia for a reason. But whatevs.0 -
It's not good PR it's brutal suppression of any dissent by beatings, summary imprisonment and murder, plus total control of the media and flooding the internet with misinformation. Seems to have had an effect here, too.Stevo_666 said:
If you read my first post I only said that Russia is an example of where PR can overcome bad policies, in the same way as itbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Where do I say equivalent? You're being a bit defensive there. Just saying that good PR can compensate for bad policies.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.
Most people will also have noticed that the EU has a free press and democracy, and that Russia's means of expansion is somewhat different from the EU's, but do carry on down your rabbit hole if you think the two are equivalent. It won't be long before you think the Express is going woke, at this rate.
You don't have to use the word. But your intent is clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalenceThis fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence does not bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
In any case, as someone might say, "my point stands" that you said that the EU was causing a rise in populism in the EU, when now you're admitting it's not, even if the reason is "good PR", as you claim.
can in the EU. Sometimes it helps to read my posts before going off on one.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
Yeah pretty much.Stevo_666 said:
So you think that was the only reason? And that EU policies and over-reach had nothing to do with it?rick_chasey said:
Well pretty much all of Europe embarked on some fairly serious austerity, right?Stevo_666 said:
Explain...rick_chasey said:Definitely has to do with austerity...!
And there is quite a lot of evidence about linking austerity politics with the rise in populist and extremist politics.
Now, if you actually had some understanding of the EU you'd recognise that the structure of the EU meant that the northern European penchant for austerity amplified the level of austerity inflicting on the South, but that's more a question about transmission rather than cause.
But there is quite a well researched school of thought that aligns all the different waves of far right population; anti-EU (UKIP, Lega Nord Sweden Democrats, the True Fins,) ethnonationalists ( Vlaams Belang, People's Party Front and Front National) and anti-islam/immigration parties (PVV, AfD, PiS) with their roots in various types of austerity.
The positive link between austerity and populist extreme is pretty well documented.
I think in the south there is some specifics around the sovereign debt crisis, but again, that’s really about austerity.
It’s actually very hard to get upset about what the EU does because so much of it is dull market stuff.0 -
I've just realised how appropriate it is that The Spectator is thus named.
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I appreciate that I may be missing the point but is there a reason why Germany, France and Italy have a separate agreement from the EU?briantrumpet said:I've just realised how appropriate it is that The Spectator is thus named.
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I appreciate that I may be missing the point but is there a reason why Germany, France and Italy have a separate agreement from the EU?briantrumpet said:I've just realised how appropriate it is that The Spectator is thus named.
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Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:0 -
surrey_commuter said:
I appreciate that I may be missing the point but is there a reason why Germany, France and Italy have a separate agreement from the EU?briantrumpet said:I've just realised how appropriate it is that The Spectator is thus named.
I wasn't sure what all that was about either. Maybe they just wanted their names on the press release.0 -
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Probably the only EU countries that he could name.briantrumpet said:Or it might be a clumsy press release from Biden.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Pretty sure my industry will be affected.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:0 -
Your instincts are correct. It is a very narrow scope - for starters it only impacts B2C transactions and B2B is out of scope. Second, it only impacts remotely delivered services where there is a significant element of human interaction, hence the weird example which is taken from the technical guidance (see link):surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:
https://taxadvisermagazine.com/article/upcoming-eu-vat-changes-2025-untangling-puzzle#:~:text=The%20initial%20changes%20from%201,from%20the%20start%20of%202028.
Third, starting in 2025 there is the option to have a single EU VAT reg to cover all countries for the few that will be affected by it.
So overall a classic bit of Eurobollox - just not sure whether the tweeter didn't understand the issue properly or was trying to exaggerate the scale of the issue.
Rendering services in person in the EU has been in scope for years so no change there. Which thinking about it, if someone like Rick has been going to the continent to do business, he very likely should have registered for VAT out there..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
We don't currently have any projects in the EU, but plenty of other firms do and quite likely remotely. Extra fun for their VAT return. Not the end of the world but I bet their accountants charge extra for covering this.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Unless the remote services are interactive as in the example - say live online events etc and are B2C not B2B - then the VAT situation won't change.rjsterry said:
We don't currently have any projects in the EU, but plenty of other firms do and quite likely remotely. Extra fun for their VAT return. Not the end of the world but I bet their accountants charge extra for covering this.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Almost all our work is B2C. We don't do online events but plenty of our work is done remotely. If we're having a remote design meeting with a client in, say, Bavaria? I wasn't suggesting it was a huge issue, just providing a slightly less hypothetical example.Stevo_666 said:
Unless the remote services are interactive as in the example - say live online events etc and are B2C not B2B - then the VAT situation won't change.rjsterry said:
We don't currently have any projects in the EU, but plenty of other firms do and quite likely remotely. Extra fun for their VAT return. Not the end of the world but I bet their accountants charge extra for covering this.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Now that's a bit more interesting - a real life example.rjsterry said:
Almost all our work is B2C. We don't do online events but plenty of our work is done remotely. If we're having a remote design meeting with a client in, say, Bavaria? I wasn't suggesting it was a huge issue, just providing a slightly less hypothetical example.Stevo_666 said:
Unless the remote services are interactive as in the example - say live online events etc and are B2C not B2B - then the VAT situation won't change.rjsterry said:
We don't currently have any projects in the EU, but plenty of other firms do and quite likely remotely. Extra fun for their VAT return. Not the end of the world but I bet their accountants charge extra for covering this.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:
The rules appear to catch services where the online 'event' is the thing that the customer is paying for (in the example its an online cooking class).
From the link:
1 January 2025: Place of supply changes
Whilst the forthcoming changes predominantly impact those trading in goods, the modernisation of the place of supply rules in respect of business-to-consumer (B2C) virtual events, education, entertainment and similar activities merits a discussion.
At present, businesses providing virtual events (for example, a UK business providing live online cooking classes where the participants can interact with the instructor in real time) have three UK/EU rules they need to think about:
1. The basic rule: B2C supplies of services are taxed where the supplier belongs.
2. The electronically supplied services (ESS) rule: B2C electronically supplied services are taxed where the consumer belongs.
3. The ‘where performed’ rule: B2C supplies of entertainment, education or similar events are taxed where the event takes place.
As the example service appears to involve more than the ‘minimum level of human intervention’ required by the electronically supplied services definition, rule number two can be disregarded for now. While EU case law in Geelen (Case C-568/17) helps us to understand the concept of where an online event actually takes place, a more complex offering by this business involving both live and pre‑recorded sessions sees the service appearing to land between the latter two rules. Although taxing events where they take place was perfectly sensible at a time when you could clearly point to the physical place where they were occurring, this approach to taxation hasn’t kept pace with an increasingly digital economy.
Fortunately, the position is clarified from the start of 2025, when such services which are streamed or made available digitally will become taxable where the consumer resides. This change provides welcome clarity, and dispels the need to consider the somewhat vague and inconsistently applied ESS definition.
Whereas what you provide (if I understand correctly) is a an architectural service that you mainly perform in your own offices and not interactively (apart from when you're speaking to the client to determine what he wants, which is incidental to the main provision of your service). Otherwise just calling him on the phone would trigger the VAT registration overseas, which is ludicrous.
As the text above mentions, this is about "the modernisation of the place of supply rules in respect of business-to-consumer (B2C) virtual events, education, entertainment and similar activities" which I don't think your business activity fall into. So I would say you're OK. The other point is practically, how the hell the German tax authority is going to pick this up - are they really going to check all of their customers Teams calls to see if a Brit services supplier has been on a video call with them?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Thanks. The meetings are definitely chargeable time, but part of an ongoing service rather than a self-contained product. I would imagine the CPD providers are a bit more bothered by this. Almost everything they do is online events and I'm sure they have overseas customers.Stevo_666 said:
Now that's a bit more interesting - a real life example.rjsterry said:
Almost all our work is B2C. We don't do online events but plenty of our work is done remotely. If we're having a remote design meeting with a client in, say, Bavaria? I wasn't suggesting it was a huge issue, just providing a slightly less hypothetical example.Stevo_666 said:
Unless the remote services are interactive as in the example - say live online events etc and are B2C not B2B - then the VAT situation won't change.rjsterry said:
We don't currently have any projects in the EU, but plenty of other firms do and quite likely remotely. Extra fun for their VAT return. Not the end of the world but I bet their accountants charge extra for covering this.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:
The rules appear to catch services where the online 'event' is the thing that the customer is paying for (in the example its an online cooking class).
From the link:
1 January 2025: Place of supply changes
Whilst the forthcoming changes predominantly impact those trading in goods, the modernisation of the place of supply rules in respect of business-to-consumer (B2C) virtual events, education, entertainment and similar activities merits a discussion.
At present, businesses providing virtual events (for example, a UK business providing live online cooking classes where the participants can interact with the instructor in real time) have three UK/EU rules they need to think about:
1. The basic rule: B2C supplies of services are taxed where the supplier belongs.
2. The electronically supplied services (ESS) rule: B2C electronically supplied services are taxed where the consumer belongs.
3. The ‘where performed’ rule: B2C supplies of entertainment, education or similar events are taxed where the event takes place.
As the example service appears to involve more than the ‘minimum level of human intervention’ required by the electronically supplied services definition, rule number two can be disregarded for now. While EU case law in Geelen (Case C-568/17) helps us to understand the concept of where an online event actually takes place, a more complex offering by this business involving both live and pre‑recorded sessions sees the service appearing to land between the latter two rules. Although taxing events where they take place was perfectly sensible at a time when you could clearly point to the physical place where they were occurring, this approach to taxation hasn’t kept pace with an increasingly digital economy.
Fortunately, the position is clarified from the start of 2025, when such services which are streamed or made available digitally will become taxable where the consumer resides. This change provides welcome clarity, and dispels the need to consider the somewhat vague and inconsistently applied ESS definition.
Whereas what you provide (if I understand correctly) is a an architectural service that you mainly perform in your own offices and not interactively (apart from when you're speaking to the client to determine what he wants, which is incidental to the main provision of your service). Otherwise calling him on the phone would trigger the VAT registration overseas, which is ludicrous.
As the text above mentions, this is about "the modernisation of the place of supply rules in respect of business-to-consumer (B2C) virtual events, education, entertainment and similar activities" which I don't think your business activity fall into. So I would say you're OK. The other point is practically, how the hell the German tax authority is going to pick this up - are they really going to check all of their customers Teams calls to see if a Brit services supplier has been on a video call with them?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Understood. There is already the concept in VAT law of incidental supplies, although it applies to FS businesses and partial exemption.rjsterry said:
Thanks. The meetings are definitely chargeable time, but part of an ongoing service rather than a self-contained product. I would imagine the CPD providers are a bit more bothered by this. Almost everything they do is online events and I'm sure they have overseas customers.Stevo_666 said:
Now that's a bit more interesting - a real life example.rjsterry said:
Almost all our work is B2C. We don't do online events but plenty of our work is done remotely. If we're having a remote design meeting with a client in, say, Bavaria? I wasn't suggesting it was a huge issue, just providing a slightly less hypothetical example.Stevo_666 said:
Unless the remote services are interactive as in the example - say live online events etc and are B2C not B2B - then the VAT situation won't change.rjsterry said:
We don't currently have any projects in the EU, but plenty of other firms do and quite likely remotely. Extra fun for their VAT return. Not the end of the world but I bet their accountants charge extra for covering this.surrey_commuter said:
Do you think the fact that he picks such a ludicrous example suggests that not many people will be affected by this?rick_chasey said:
The rules appear to catch services where the online 'event' is the thing that the customer is paying for (in the example its an online cooking class).
From the link:
1 January 2025: Place of supply changes
Whilst the forthcoming changes predominantly impact those trading in goods, the modernisation of the place of supply rules in respect of business-to-consumer (B2C) virtual events, education, entertainment and similar activities merits a discussion.
At present, businesses providing virtual events (for example, a UK business providing live online cooking classes where the participants can interact with the instructor in real time) have three UK/EU rules they need to think about:
1. The basic rule: B2C supplies of services are taxed where the supplier belongs.
2. The electronically supplied services (ESS) rule: B2C electronically supplied services are taxed where the consumer belongs.
3. The ‘where performed’ rule: B2C supplies of entertainment, education or similar events are taxed where the event takes place.
As the example service appears to involve more than the ‘minimum level of human intervention’ required by the electronically supplied services definition, rule number two can be disregarded for now. While EU case law in Geelen (Case C-568/17) helps us to understand the concept of where an online event actually takes place, a more complex offering by this business involving both live and pre‑recorded sessions sees the service appearing to land between the latter two rules. Although taxing events where they take place was perfectly sensible at a time when you could clearly point to the physical place where they were occurring, this approach to taxation hasn’t kept pace with an increasingly digital economy.
Fortunately, the position is clarified from the start of 2025, when such services which are streamed or made available digitally will become taxable where the consumer resides. This change provides welcome clarity, and dispels the need to consider the somewhat vague and inconsistently applied ESS definition.
Whereas what you provide (if I understand correctly) is a an architectural service that you mainly perform in your own offices and not interactively (apart from when you're speaking to the client to determine what he wants, which is incidental to the main provision of your service). Otherwise calling him on the phone would trigger the VAT registration overseas, which is ludicrous.
As the text above mentions, this is about "the modernisation of the place of supply rules in respect of business-to-consumer (B2C) virtual events, education, entertainment and similar activities" which I don't think your business activity fall into. So I would say you're OK. The other point is practically, how the hell the German tax authority is going to pick this up - are they really going to check all of their customers Teams calls to see if a Brit services supplier has been on a video call with them?
That said, I'm sure that closer to the time that this goes live there will be guidance issued, as I imagine if you've thought of it then plenty other business people will be asking the question as well."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Isn't it positive due to the single VAT registration for the whole of the EU? A bit like how the Euro makes going on holiday for Brits much easier.0
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EU in making it easier to do business in and across EU shocker. It's almost as if it's their reason for existing....TheBigBean said:Isn't it positive due to the single VAT registration for the whole of the EU? A bit like how the Euro makes going on holiday for Brits much easier.
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What BB referred to is making it easier for non-EU businesses to do business in the EU, so I suppose it is a bit of a shocker.super_davo said:
EU in making it easier to do business in and across EU shocker. It's almost as if it's their reason for existing....TheBigBean said:Isn't it positive due to the single VAT registration for the whole of the EU? A bit like how the Euro makes going on holiday for Brits much easier.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I know it's irrelevant now, but when we were in the EU we had to be VAT registered in most EU countries and charge the local rate for the destination and then pay each country as we were selling over the threshold. I wonder if that's changed with a single VAT registration.TheBigBean said:Isn't it positive due to the single VAT registration for the whole of the EU? A bit like how the Euro makes going on holiday for Brits much easier.
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From memory the VAT 'one stop shop' arrangement came in from 2021.veronese68 said:
I know it's irrelevant now, but when we were in the EU we had to be VAT registered in most EU countries and charge the local rate for the destination and then pay each country as we were selling over the threshold. I wonder if that's changed with a single VAT registration.TheBigBean said:Isn't it positive due to the single VAT registration for the whole of the EU? A bit like how the Euro makes going on holiday for Brits much easier.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
