BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

pangolin

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

"The delusion is strong in this one"

It’s a good scheme. Would you rather we didn’t rejoin it?

I'd be happy if we could just rejoin the single market and customs union but sadly we can't cherry pick if the EU are to be believed. So the ever closer political union, erosion of national decision making, adoption of the Euro etc make rejoining somewhat unappealing as a long term prospect. Clearly some of those things would have been different if we had never left, but we can't turn the clock back.

We can rejoin the SM and CU in the morning.

How's that done? Without strings.

One simply rejoins the Single Market

SM and CU membership were on Barnier’s famous chart mapping what’s available against “red lines”. The UK’s redlines of “no ECJ” and no “FoM” both individually ruled out SM membership and a desire to follow an independent trade policy ruled out CU membership.

What was never on offer was a “mix and match” approach ie only a U.K. picked selection of features applying.

If there was FoM would anyone even notice?

Yes there would be a lot of frothing from people who aren't really affected much.

rjsterry

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

"The delusion is strong in this one"

It’s a good scheme. Would you rather we didn’t rejoin it?

I'd be happy if we could just rejoin the single market and customs union but sadly we can't cherry pick if the EU are to be believed. So the ever closer political union, erosion of national decision making, adoption of the Euro etc make rejoining somewhat unappealing as a long term prospect. Clearly some of those things would have been different if we had never left, but we can't turn the clock back.

We can rejoin the SM and CU in the morning.

How's that done? Without strings.

One simply rejoins the Single Market

SM and CU membership were on Barnier’s famous chart mapping what’s available against “red lines”. The UK’s redlines of “no ECJ” and no “FoM” both individually ruled out SM membership and a desire to follow an independent trade policy ruled out CU membership.

What was never on offer was a “mix and match” approach ie only a U.K. picked selection of features applying.

If there was FoM would anyone even notice?

Yes there would be a lot of frothing from people who aren't really affected much.

Surely they should welcome it as net migration was much lower under FoM .

briantrumpet

I'm a bit confused now. It's been too early to tell if Brexit was a success, but now we're undoing bits of it, is it too late too?

super_davo

briantrumpet said:

I'm a bit confused now. It's been too early to tell if Brexit was a success, but now we're undoing bits of it, is it too late too?

I am pretty sure this will be the direction of travel going forward, certainly once the current lot are out.

We won't rejoin, but we'll slowly undo bits, have tighter sector by sector agreements and edge progressively closer.

We'll probably end in some sort of Norway half in half out arrangement that doesn't really suit anyone and is considerably worse than the pre 2016 position.

Stevo_666

wallace_and_gromit said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

"The delusion is strong in this one"

It’s a good scheme. Would you rather we didn’t rejoin it?

I'd be happy if we could just rejoin the single market and customs union but sadly we can't cherry pick if the EU are to be believed. So the ever closer political union, erosion of national decision making, adoption of the Euro etc make rejoining somewhat unappealing as a long term prospect. Clearly some of those things would have been different if we had never left, but we can't turn the clock back.

We can rejoin the SM and CU in the morning.

How's that done? Without strings.

One simply rejoins the Single Market

SM and CU membership were on Barnier’s famous chart mapping what’s available against “red lines”. The UK’s redlines of “no ECJ” and no “FoM” both individually ruled out SM membership and a desire to follow an independent trade policy ruled out CU membership.

What was never on offer was a “mix and match” approach ie only a U.K. picked selection of features applying.

Beat me to it. There would clearly be some very large strings attached.

wallace_and_gromit

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

"The delusion is strong in this one"

It’s a good scheme. Would you rather we didn’t rejoin it?

I'd be happy if we could just rejoin the single market and customs union but sadly we can't cherry pick if the EU are to be believed. So the ever closer political union, erosion of national decision making, adoption of the Euro etc make rejoining somewhat unappealing as a long term prospect. Clearly some of those things would have been different if we had never left, but we can't turn the clock back.

We can rejoin the SM and CU in the morning.

How's that done? Without strings.

One simply rejoins the Single Market

SM and CU membership were on Barnier’s famous chart mapping what’s available against “red lines”. The UK’s redlines of “no ECJ” and no “FoM” both individually ruled out SM membership and a desire to follow an independent trade policy ruled out CU membership.

What was never on offer was a “mix and match” approach ie only a U.K. picked selection of features applying.

Beat me to it. There would clearly be some very large strings attached.

Not that I'm any great political pundit, but I think that over time, the UK will drift further back towards the EU, the die hard Brexiteers will die off / not be allowed out by their handlers and the UK will then re-join every EU institution other than those that allow voting on anything. Give it 15-20 years or so. And political historians will scratch their heads in total bafflement about WTF it was all about.

tailwindhome

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

"The delusion is strong in this one"

It’s a good scheme. Would you rather we didn’t rejoin it?

I'd be happy if we could just rejoin the single market and customs union but sadly we can't cherry pick if the EU are to be believed. So the ever closer political union, erosion of national decision making, adoption of the Euro etc make rejoining somewhat unappealing as a long term prospect. Clearly some of those things would have been different if we had never left, but we can't turn the clock back.

We can rejoin the SM and CU in the morning.

How's that done? Without strings.

One simply rejoins the Single Market

SM and CU membership were on Barnier’s famous chart mapping what’s available against “red lines”. The UK’s redlines of “no ECJ” and no “FoM” both individually ruled out SM membership and a desire to follow an independent trade policy ruled out CU membership.

What was never on offer was a “mix and match” approach ie only a U.K. picked selection of features applying.

Beat me to it. There would clearly be some very large strings attached.

If you're describing the characteristics of the Single Market as 'strings attached' then when you say you want to join the Single Market you probably mean that you don't want to join the Single Market

TheBigBean

Joining Horizon was part of the original Brexit deal, so this was always the plan. The EU chose to make it political in the same way they have with Switzerland.

tailwindhome

We could have a food and veterinary agreement to facilitate the free movement of food and animal products - eliminating much of the Irish Sea Border and the EU to GB Border we keep postponing

But I'm guessing that following EU rules to facilitate the free movement of food and animal products is unacceptable too, as it involves following EU rules.

wallace_and_gromit

tailwindhome said:

But I'm guessing that following EU rules to facilitate the free movement of food and animal products is unacceptable too, as it involves following EU rules.

I think following EU rules is acceptable to the Brexiteers, so long as the UK has exercised its right to fail to use any "Brexit Freedoms" and simply carry on with the same rules as they are then the UK's chosen rules. Committing to EU rules with ECJ oversight is the big "no no".

sungod

TheBigBean said:

Joining Horizon was part of the original Brexit deal, so this was always the plan. The EU chose to make it political whe brexiters started reneging on what they'd agreed and proved themselves liars who could not be trusted.

ftfy

TheBigBean

sungod said:

TheBigBean said:

Joining Horizon was part of the original Brexit deal, so this was always the plan. The EU chose to make it political whe brexiters started reneging on what they'd agreed and proved themselves liars who could not be trusted.

ftfy

What was Switzerland's crime that justified the damage for science?

TheBigBean

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

tailwindhome

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

I thought that was the UK policy?

Pross

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

And to try stopping them reaching here to make a claim at all.

rjsterry

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Marginally better than Syria, I would suggest. EU has lots of blood on its hands with regard to Mediterranean migration.

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Marginally better than Syria, I would suggest. EU has lots of blood on its hands with regard to Mediterranean migration.

This was a deportation back to Turkey, which is deemed a safe country in the same way as Rwanda.

Is this case saying that the Greek state were responsible, should have stopped the removal, and Frontex were just the "couriers" who have no decision making power?

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Marginally better than Syria, I would suggest. EU has lots of blood on its hands with regard to Mediterranean migration.

This was a deportation back to Turkey, which is deemed a safe country in the same way as Rwanda.

Is this case saying that the Greek state were responsible, should have stopped the removal, and Frontex were just the "couriers" who have no decision making power?

I don't think anyone comes out well.

TheBigBean

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Not according to the courts. It is a government idea that it is struggling with and is unlikely to ever get through the courts. The point being the courts aren't a stitch up.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Marginally better than Syria, I would suggest. EU has lots of blood on its hands with regard to Mediterranean migration.

This was a deportation back to Turkey, which is deemed a safe country in the same way as Rwanda.

Is this case saying that the Greek state were responsible, should have stopped the removal, and Frontex were just the "couriers" who have no decision making power?

I think so. Although it wouldn't surprise me if legal action couldn't be brought against the Greek state because it was done by Frontex. Nonetheless, agencies not subject to the law are not a great thing.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Marginally better than Syria, I would suggest. EU has lots of blood on its hands with regard to Mediterranean migration.

This was a deportation back to Turkey, which is deemed a safe country in the same way as Rwanda.

Is this case saying that the Greek state were responsible, should have stopped the removal, and Frontex were just the "couriers" who have no decision making power?

I think so. Although it wouldn't surprise me if legal action couldn't be brought against the Greek state because it was done by Frontex. Nonetheless, agencies not subject to the law are not a great thing.

Who would be the equivalent in the UK?

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Marginally better than Syria, I would suggest. EU has lots of blood on its hands with regard to Mediterranean migration.

This was a deportation back to Turkey, which is deemed a safe country in the same way as Rwanda.

Is this case saying that the Greek state were responsible, should have stopped the removal, and Frontex were just the "couriers" who have no decision making power?

I think so. Although it wouldn't surprise me if legal action couldn't be brought against the Greek state because it was done by Frontex. Nonetheless, agencies not subject to the law are not a great thing.

Who would be the equivalent in the UK?

Border force presumably.

super_davo

With respect to the EU being above reproach in some peoples eyes, let's face it there is an element of boy who cried wolf here.

There has been so much c*** said over the years that's either been made up completely or was never the EUs fault in the first place, people either lap it all up or reject everything. Stuff the EU, EU institutions or member states doing on behalf of their EU obligations that's genuinely wrong gets lost in the noise.

In this particular case the boys calling wolf are probably exceptionally jealous that they don't have a returns arrangement with Turkey themselves.

Agree with the posters that nobody comes out of this well; difference is if we were in the EU we'd have some leverage to do something about it, assuming we had a government that cared about refugees and international obligations.

rick_chasey

Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.

Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.

That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.

tailwindhome

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Not according to the courts. It is a government idea that it is struggling with and is unlikely to ever get through the courts. The point being the courts aren't a stitch up.

Sorry, what's the difference between government policy and a government idea?

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.

Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.

That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.

Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?

TheBigBean

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

TheBigBean said:

Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.

Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/

No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.

The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?

Not according to the courts. It is a government idea that it is struggling with and is unlikely to ever get through the courts. The point being the courts aren't a stitch up.

Sorry, what's the difference between government policy and a government idea?

Ability to legally implement it, but the language isn't really relevant. The point is that the government is held to account by the legal system.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.

Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.

That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.

Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?

Austerity obviously.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.

Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.

That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.

Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?

Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexit

Support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.

The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.

The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.

Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).

Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).