BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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More populism than the UK do you mean? Or the USA? Russia? Brazil? North Korea? Populism exists in all countries and there are always people who will take advantage of it. Johnson was no exception.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.0 -
OK. So when I said its UK Government policy to deport asylum seekers without hearing their asylum claim first that was in fact, trueTheBigBean said:
Ability to legally implement it, but the language isn't really relevant. The point is that the government is held to account by the legal system.tailwindhome said:
Sorry, what's the difference between government policy and a government idea?TheBigBean said:
Not according to the courts. It is a government idea that it is struggling with and is unlikely to ever get through the courts. The point being the courts aren't a stitch up.tailwindhome said:
The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?TheBigBean said:Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.
Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/
No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.
That the courts have stopped them is irrelevant to it being their policy.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
"Easy answers to complex questions surprisingly popular".davebradswmb said:
More populism than the UK do you mean? Or the USA? Russia? Brazil? North Korea? Populism exists in all countries and there are always people who will take advantage of it. Johnson was no exception.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
My understanding, although I could be entirely wrong, is that following Brexit, many of the European populist movements have toned down their anti EU message.
Anyway glad we are rejoining horizon.0 -
When I said it doesn't happen in the UK that was in fact true. That the government has a policy that it can't implement is irrelevant to this statement.tailwindhome said:
OK. So when I said its UK Government policy to deport asylum seekers without hearing their asylum claim first that was in fact, trueTheBigBean said:
Ability to legally implement it, but the language isn't really relevant. The point is that the government is held to account by the legal system.tailwindhome said:
Sorry, what's the difference between government policy and a government idea?TheBigBean said:
Not according to the courts. It is a government idea that it is struggling with and is unlikely to ever get through the courts. The point being the courts aren't a stitch up.tailwindhome said:
The UK policy is to deport to Rwanda without hearing the asylum claim first, no?TheBigBean said:Really weird the way that the EU is above reproach in some people's eyes.
Yesterday Frontex won a legal battle in the ECJ. It deported a Syrian family from Greece who were trying to claim asylum without hearing the claim at all. It's a breach of international law, but was found to be ok, because Frontex are not the responsible agency even though they assisted with the deportation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/06/frontex-court-justice-deportation/
No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad.
That the courts have stopped them is irrelevant to it being their policy.
Edit - As KG has pointed out I used the word policy in my original post. It would have been better to refer to the asylum process which has the protection of the courts.1 -
What you said was "No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad."
It's more than a policy, it's a law that has gone through both houses of parliament, and that is driving parts of the governing party to consider withdrawing from the ECHR to fully implement.
There was a plane on the runway ready to go!
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The plane didn't go...but I see I used the word policy. That was a mistake.kingstongraham said:What you said was "No matter how messed up the UK's policy is on asylum. It's unlikely to ever be that bad."
It's more than a policy, it's a law that has gone through both houses of parliament, and that is driving parts of the governing party to consider withdrawing from the ECHR to fully implement.
There was a plane on the runway ready to go!
I also think the EU case in question is worse than the UK policy, because there is still legal oversight.0 -
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%)."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
What, in all the countries where there is significant populist support? Including Germany, France, Italy, Sweden?rick_chasey said:
Austerity obviously.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Pre vote: "The EU is a horribly centralised, intransigent, overbearing, self interested organisation, we need to get out to flourish."
Post vote: "I never expected the EU to be so horribly centralised, intransigent, overbearing and self interested."0 -
You did vote to remain, right?Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).0 -
Brazil? US? India?Stevo_666 said:
What, in all the countries where there is significant populist support? Including Germany, France, Italy, Sweden?rick_chasey said:
Austerity obviously.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
It's got f*** all to do with the EU and not much to do with austerity.
No surprise you're back in this thread moaning about them though.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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Sounds like me posting here annoys you. Well here I amrjsterry said:
Brazil? US? India?Stevo_666 said:
What, in all the countries where there is significant populist support? Including Germany, France, Italy, Sweden?rick_chasey said:
Austerity obviously.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
It's got f*** all to do with the EU and not much to do with austerity.
No surprise you're back in this thread moaning about them though.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Clearly it's not the only cause, but the EU doing what it does seems to generate a populist backlash which Brussels seems to ignore or discount in the same way that you are doing, which is probably a mistake.rjsterry said:
Brazil? US? India?Stevo_666 said:
What, in all the countries where there is significant populist support? Including Germany, France, Italy, Sweden?rick_chasey said:
Austerity obviously.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
It's got f*** all to do with the EU and not much to do with austerity.
No surprise you're back in this thread moaning about them though."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Explain...rick_chasey said:Definitely has to do with austerity...!
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Maybe one for the irony thread, but i can't help noticing the popularity of the people cutting down ULEZ cameras with the people who were going to solve the Irish Border problem with cameras and tech“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Not at all. Populism exists everywhere and in all time periods. They were at it in ancient Rome. The other common factor is that they never achieve anything. Just because populist keep shouting that X is to blame for all your woes doesn't mean it's true. Imagine where the Conservatives would be if they had ignored the populists rather than trying to be like themStevo_666 said:
Sounds like me posting here annoys you. Well here I amrjsterry said:
Brazil? US? India?Stevo_666 said:
What, in all the countries where there is significant populist support? Including Germany, France, Italy, Sweden?rick_chasey said:
Austerity obviously.Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
It's got f*** all to do with the EU and not much to do with austerity.
No surprise you're back in this thread moaning about them though.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Well pretty much all of Europe embarked on some fairly serious austerity, right?Stevo_666 said:
Explain...rick_chasey said:Definitely has to do with austerity...!
And there is quite a lot of evidence about linking austerity politics with the rise in populist and extremist politics.
Now, if you actually had some understanding of the EU you'd recognise that the structure of the EU meant that the northern European penchant for austerity amplified the level of austerity inflicting on the South, but that's more a question about transmission rather than cause.
But there is quite a well researched school of thought that aligns all the different waves of far right population; anti-EU (UKIP, Lega Nord Sweden Democrats, the True Fins,) ethnonationalists ( Vlaams Belang, People's Party Front and Front National) and anti-islam/immigration parties (PVV, AfD, PiS) with their roots in various types of austerity.
The positive link between austerity and populist extreme is pretty well documented.0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.0 -
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
So you think that was the only reason? And that EU policies and over-reach had nothing to do with it?rick_chasey said:
Well pretty much all of Europe embarked on some fairly serious austerity, right?Stevo_666 said:
Explain...rick_chasey said:Definitely has to do with austerity...!
And there is quite a lot of evidence about linking austerity politics with the rise in populist and extremist politics.
Now, if you actually had some understanding of the EU you'd recognise that the structure of the EU meant that the northern European penchant for austerity amplified the level of austerity inflicting on the South, but that's more a question about transmission rather than cause.
But there is quite a well researched school of thought that aligns all the different waves of far right population; anti-EU (UKIP, Lega Nord Sweden Democrats, the True Fins,) ethnonationalists ( Vlaams Belang, People's Party Front and Front National) and anti-islam/immigration parties (PVV, AfD, PiS) with their roots in various types of austerity.
The positive link between austerity and populist extreme is pretty well documented."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).0 -
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.0 -
Wind up merchants gonna keep on winding...bring on the shortfall likebot.2
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I doubt many could name a single EU policy that they object to. What you see as overreach, others see as a brake on crooks like Orban, although they could be a bit more forceful with the pedal. He needs EU money to survive and there's little point having common rules if they're not going to enforce them.Stevo_666 said:
So you think that was the only reason? And that EU policies and over-reach had nothing to do with it?rick_chasey said:
Well pretty much all of Europe embarked on some fairly serious austerity, right?Stevo_666 said:
Explain...rick_chasey said:Definitely has to do with austerity...!
And there is quite a lot of evidence about linking austerity politics with the rise in populist and extremist politics.
Now, if you actually had some understanding of the EU you'd recognise that the structure of the EU meant that the northern European penchant for austerity amplified the level of austerity inflicting on the South, but that's more a question about transmission rather than cause.
But there is quite a well researched school of thought that aligns all the different waves of far right population; anti-EU (UKIP, Lega Nord Sweden Democrats, the True Fins,) ethnonationalists ( Vlaams Belang, People's Party Front and Front National) and anti-islam/immigration parties (PVV, AfD, PiS) with their roots in various types of austerity.
The positive link between austerity and populist extreme is pretty well documented.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Why thank you. Some will have noticed that both have a bit of a democratic deficit and expansionary aims.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Good PR is good PR, sometimes despite the policies. Just look at Putin's popularity in Russia.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I do believe that there was a certain amount of the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face, so not sure they really were standing up for their citizens best interests. But their PR is good, as I can tell from your reposnses.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Most likely the EU being total ar$es about the negotiations and on-going post Brexit relationship with the UK has probably had its intended effect of signalling to the current EU voters that any attempt to leave 'The Firm' will be a bit of a pain. Takes time to grow a pair I suppose.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Makes you wonder why there is so much populism in Europe. Could possibly be something to do with people being unhappy with the EU and its direction of travel in any way?rick_chasey said:Nations that make up the EU are hardly all massively pro refugee anyway.
Italy has a hard right PM mainly for that reason, the issue collapsed the Dutch government, the AfD are polling record highs in Germany, Le Pen is regularly the run off contender for French president, Orban is about as hostile as possible, same in Poland etc etc etc.
That’s the whole point. Britain shares all these issues with them.
Makes you wonder why support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly since Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexitSupport for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.
The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.
The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.
Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%).
Support for leave in the survey’s most recent round was highest in the Czech Republic (29.2%), Italy (20.1%) and Sweden (19.3%), but even in those countries it had declined by 4.5 percentage points, 9.1 points and 4.6 points respectively since 2016-2017, the survey showed. Leave was least popular in Spain (4.7%).
Thanks for confirming that the EU standing up for its members has made people in those countries appreciate benefits of being in the EU, and also that the EU played their strong hand well in the negotiations. It's just possible that the UK's overt cake-and-eat-it stance was not the best approach to getting a better deal. Well, that, and having incompetent negotiators with a weak hand to play. Boris Bluster wasn't enough, unsurprisingly.
Well, it seems that their tactics & PR have convinced the EU population, which (as you seem to admit) undermines your claim about populism having gained from the EU's 'overreach'. Even Marine le Pen has backed off Frexit, though she's benefited from discontent about Macron's domestic policies (which have little or nothing to do with the EU).
So now you're equating the EU with Russia. Good work.
Most people will also have noticed that the EU has a free press and democracy, and that Russia's means of expansion is somewhat different from the EU's, but do carry on down your rabbit hole if you think the two are equivalent. It won't be long before you think the Express is going woke, at this rate.0
