BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

wallace_and_gromit

Pross said:

That said, the way our economy is at present we're more likely to be Greece than Germany if anything does go wrong.

Ironically, at the moment, Greece is outperforming Germany in GDP growth terms!

sungod

wallace_and_gromit said:

sungod said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

I’d rather go back in accepting it wouldn’t be on as good terms as we had before or at the very least joining the SM / CU. Having to accept the Euro would be the one thing I would struggle with, mainly from seeing the problems in the GFC.

And thats what the linked/quoted article is saying. A majority are in favour of rejoining currently - until you mention that it would highly likely mean adopting the Euro. Then that majority disappears.

I actually think if we were looking seriously at rejoining but the Euro was a deal breaker the EU would find a way around it. We'd still have to lose a lot of the historic benefits we previously enjoyed though which would have made the whole process a complete farce other than maybe getting people to appreciate the benefits of membership a bit more.

the eu doesn't force new members adopt the euro, new members merely 'commit in principle', which is standard euro-fudge for 'never happen'

everyone knows it won't happen, but there's no harm aspiring to it, a bit like world peace

Problem is though that from a Eurosceptic viewpoint, there's no smoke without fire, so committing to the Euro must increase the chances of having to adopt it. And we saw how powerful arguments about things which only might happen were in the last referendum. So from a UK political viewpoint, committing to the Euro is a big deal.

Issues re currency are very important to some. The SNP - before it decided to become a second hand motorhome dealership - was very reluctant to be specific about its plans for currency post-independence, most likely because of the commitment to the Euro that would be required as part of joining the EU, with such a commitment likely to be a turn-off to a material number of otherwise pro-indy voters.

yes, completely agree

the uk electorate needs to become more like the french

wallace_and_gromit

surrey_commuter said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

The most obvious thing to do is join the EEA

This does feel like the likely endpoint.

And there will be a huge degree of national "satisfaction" at the 20 year project to get to this end point, which would see the UK retain most of the things it didn't like (sizeable financial contributions, FoM, ECJ supremacy in many areas of life) whilst having no right to vote on any of the proposed new laws that will affect us.

if I remember rightly the EU is undemocratic so the lack of a vote is irrelevant.

Some people just hate the EU so the factual arguments are irrelevant

I feel fairly sure that if there was a campaign to join the EEA, the former "leave" faction would be very vocal about highlighting that the UK would have to bend over and take whatever legislation was passed if EEA membership was taken on.

surrey_commuter

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

The most obvious thing to do is join the EEA

This does feel like the likely endpoint.

And there will be a huge degree of national "satisfaction" at the 20 year project to get to this end point, which would see the UK retain most of the things it didn't like (sizeable financial contributions, FoM, ECJ supremacy in many areas of life) whilst having no right to vote on any of the proposed new laws that will affect us.

if I remember rightly the EU is undemocratic so the lack of a vote is irrelevant.

Some people just hate the EU so the factual arguments are irrelevant

I feel fairly sure that if there was a campaign to join the EEA, the former "leave" faction would be very vocal about highlighting that the UK would have to bend over and take whatever legislation was passed if EEA membership was taken on.

I imagine they would would look at the latest polls and link it to small boats, inflation, waiting lists and potholes.

I guess the only way out of our long term dcline is to improve the education system

Stevo_666

wallace_and_gromit said:

Pross said:

That said, the way our economy is at present we're more likely to be Greece than Germany if anything does go wrong.

Ironically, at the moment, Greece is outperforming Germany in GDP growth terms!

That's a low bar tbf.

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Pross said:

That said, the way our economy is at present we're more likely to be Greece than Germany if anything does go wrong.

Ironically, at the moment, Greece is outperforming Germany in GDP growth terms!

That's a low bar tbf.

it is a truly sad state of affairs that we no longer realistically aspire to hit that low bar

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Pross said:

That said, the way our economy is at present we're more likely to be Greece than Germany if anything does go wrong.

Ironically, at the moment, Greece is outperforming Germany in GDP growth terms!

That's a low bar tbf.

it is a truly sad state of affairs that we no longer realistically aspire to hit that low bar

I was just referring to the comparison between Greece and Germany.

Stevo_666

sungod said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

sungod said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

I’d rather go back in accepting it wouldn’t be on as good terms as we had before or at the very least joining the SM / CU. Having to accept the Euro would be the one thing I would struggle with, mainly from seeing the problems in the GFC.

And thats what the linked/quoted article is saying. A majority are in favour of rejoining currently - until you mention that it would highly likely mean adopting the Euro. Then that majority disappears.

I actually think if we were looking seriously at rejoining but the Euro was a deal breaker the EU would find a way around it. We'd still have to lose a lot of the historic benefits we previously enjoyed though which would have made the whole process a complete farce other than maybe getting people to appreciate the benefits of membership a bit more.

the eu doesn't force new members adopt the euro, new members merely 'commit in principle', which is standard euro-fudge for 'never happen'

everyone knows it won't happen, but there's no harm aspiring to it, a bit like world peace

Problem is though that from a Eurosceptic viewpoint, there's no smoke without fire, so committing to the Euro must increase the chances of having to adopt it. And we saw how powerful arguments about things which only might happen were in the last referendum. So from a UK political viewpoint, committing to the Euro is a big deal.

Issues re currency are very important to some. The SNP - before it decided to become a second hand motorhome dealership - was very reluctant to be specific about its plans for currency post-independence, most likely because of the commitment to the Euro that would be required as part of joining the EU, with such a commitment likely to be a turn-off to a material number of otherwise pro-indy voters.

yes, completely agree

the uk electorate needs to become more like the french

Careful what you wish for given how many of them are prepared to vote for Le Pen.

sungod

Stevo_666 said:

sungod said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

sungod said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

I’d rather go back in accepting it wouldn’t be on as good terms as we had before or at the very least joining the SM / CU. Having to accept the Euro would be the one thing I would struggle with, mainly from seeing the problems in the GFC.

And thats what the linked/quoted article is saying. A majority are in favour of rejoining currently - until you mention that it would highly likely mean adopting the Euro. Then that majority disappears.

I actually think if we were looking seriously at rejoining but the Euro was a deal breaker the EU would find a way around it. We'd still have to lose a lot of the historic benefits we previously enjoyed though which would have made the whole process a complete farce other than maybe getting people to appreciate the benefits of membership a bit more.

the eu doesn't force new members adopt the euro, new members merely 'commit in principle', which is standard euro-fudge for 'never happen'

everyone knows it won't happen, but there's no harm aspiring to it, a bit like world peace

Problem is though that from a Eurosceptic viewpoint, there's no smoke without fire, so committing to the Euro must increase the chances of having to adopt it. And we saw how powerful arguments about things which only might happen were in the last referendum. So from a UK political viewpoint, committing to the Euro is a big deal.

Issues re currency are very important to some. The SNP - before it decided to become a second hand motorhome dealership - was very reluctant to be specific about its plans for currency post-independence, most likely because of the commitment to the Euro that would be required as part of joining the EU, with such a commitment likely to be a turn-off to a material number of otherwise pro-indy voters.

yes, completely agree

the uk electorate needs to become more like the french

Careful what you wish for given how many of them are prepared to vote for Le Pen.

she's become less barking, alienating some of the more extreme her father attracted, though she's still horrible, don't see much practical difference between her and some in the current uk government

i'd be more concerned about drift to afd in germany, some real nasties in there, and the direction hungary and poland seem stuck in

Stevo_666

sungod said:

Stevo_666 said:

sungod said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

sungod said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

I’d rather go back in accepting it wouldn’t be on as good terms as we had before or at the very least joining the SM / CU. Having to accept the Euro would be the one thing I would struggle with, mainly from seeing the problems in the GFC.

And thats what the linked/quoted article is saying. A majority are in favour of rejoining currently - until you mention that it would highly likely mean adopting the Euro. Then that majority disappears.

I actually think if we were looking seriously at rejoining but the Euro was a deal breaker the EU would find a way around it. We'd still have to lose a lot of the historic benefits we previously enjoyed though which would have made the whole process a complete farce other than maybe getting people to appreciate the benefits of membership a bit more.

the eu doesn't force new members adopt the euro, new members merely 'commit in principle', which is standard euro-fudge for 'never happen'

everyone knows it won't happen, but there's no harm aspiring to it, a bit like world peace

Problem is though that from a Eurosceptic viewpoint, there's no smoke without fire, so committing to the Euro must increase the chances of having to adopt it. And we saw how powerful arguments about things which only might happen were in the last referendum. So from a UK political viewpoint, committing to the Euro is a big deal.

Issues re currency are very important to some. The SNP - before it decided to become a second hand motorhome dealership - was very reluctant to be specific about its plans for currency post-independence, most likely because of the commitment to the Euro that would be required as part of joining the EU, with such a commitment likely to be a turn-off to a material number of otherwise pro-indy voters.

yes, completely agree

the uk electorate needs to become more like the french

Careful what you wish for given how many of them are prepared to vote for Le Pen.

she's become less barking, alienating some of the more extreme her father attracted, though she's still horrible, don't see much practical difference between her and some in the current uk government

i'd be more concerned about drift to afd in germany, some real nasties in there, and the direction hungary and poland seem stuck in

I think Le Pen is clever enough to hide the more extreme parts of her instincts, a bit like Labour's hard left factions, knowing that it will make them more electable. But once in power...

Agree with you about Germany, Hungary and Poland.

rick_chasey

One thing all far right parties have in common is funding from pesky Russians.

ddraver

The political win for the EU of Britain ending up back of the table is going to lubricate the process rather a lot...

surrey_commuter

Brexit benefit? Irish GDP

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/ireland-gdp.png?s=wgdpirel&projection=te&v=202304061134V20230410&ismobile=1&w=400&h=250&lbl=0

Pross

ddraver said:

The political win for the EU of Britain ending up back of the table is going to lubricate the process rather a lot...

Was my thinking, it would be a good message for the EU “they wanted to leave but look and them coming back”. It would be easy for them to be seen to be the bigger person by letting us back in without penalising us too much.

tailwindhome

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

tailwindhome

Goodbye Retained EU Law bill, we hardly knew ye.

Pross

tailwindhome said:

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

If only the Remain campaign had actually made an effort to explain this stuff and get it into the public mind before the vote. They really didn’t do a very good job of highlighting the benefits of membership and have to shoulder as much responsibility as the lies of the leave side.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

tailwindhome said:

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

If only the Remain campaign had actually made an effort to explain this stuff and get it into the public mind before the vote. They really didn’t do a very good job of highlighting the benefits of membership and have to shoulder as much responsibility as the lies of the leave side.

It was still a tough brief: the 'status quo' is never a sexy sell when lots of people are feeling disgruntled, and just want to kick someone. Unicorns and sunlit uplands are an easy sell, especially if you are comfortable lying.

briantrumpet

tailwindhome said:

Goodbye Retained EU Law bill, we hardly knew ye.

Maybe this is another couple of Brexit benefits: Tories realising that Rees Mogg is an incompetent loon, and that a lot of EU-derived regulations are actually quite sensible.

We're getting there, bit by bit.

Dorset_Boy

briantrumpet said:

Pross said:

tailwindhome said:

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

If only the Remain campaign had actually made an effort to explain this stuff and get it into the public mind before the vote. They really didn’t do a very good job of highlighting the benefits of membership and have to shoulder as much responsibility as the lies of the leave side.

It was still a tough brief: the 'status quo' is never a sexy sell when lots of people are feeling disgruntled, and just want to kick someone. Unicorns and sunlit uplands are an easy sell, especially if you are comfortable lying.

The remain side campaigned on project fear only, rather than explaining any of the benefits of being members.

rick_chasey

Dorset_Boy said:

briantrumpet said:

Pross said:

tailwindhome said:

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

If only the Remain campaign had actually made an effort to explain this stuff and get it into the public mind before the vote. They really didn’t do a very good job of highlighting the benefits of membership and have to shoulder as much responsibility as the lies of the leave side.

It was still a tough brief: the 'status quo' is never a sexy sell when lots of people are feeling disgruntled, and just want to kick someone. Unicorns and sunlit uplands are an easy sell, especially if you are comfortable lying.

The remain side campaigned on project fear only, rather than explaining any of the benefits of being members.

How would you have responded to the leave counter which is "whatever we have now inside the EU, we can have better and more bespoke for the UK" ?

surrey_commuter

Dorset_Boy said:

briantrumpet said:

Pross said:

tailwindhome said:

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

If only the Remain campaign had actually made an effort to explain this stuff and get it into the public mind before the vote. They really didn’t do a very good job of highlighting the benefits of membership and have to shoulder as much responsibility as the lies of the leave side.

It was still a tough brief: the 'status quo' is never a sexy sell when lots of people are feeling disgruntled, and just want to kick someone. Unicorns and sunlit uplands are an easy sell, especially if you are comfortable lying.

The remain side campaigned on project fear only, rather than explaining any of the benefits of being members.

It is never questioned enough why Will Straw was head of the campaign. I assume they have a better answer than he is Jack's son

davebradswmb

Pross said:

tailwindhome said:

Things the UK would have to accept to rejoin really do emphasise what a sweet deal the UK walked away from

If only the Remain campaign had actually made an effort to explain this stuff and get it into the public mind before the vote. They really didn’t do a very good job of highlighting the benefits of membership and have to shoulder as much responsibility as the lies of the leave side.

They tried, but they were drowned out by the Brexit parties who ignored the legal spending limits. The whole thing was conducted illegally and should have been rejected on that basis, but the idiots in power went with it instead.

secretsqirrel

From the BBC…

But Mr Rees-Mogg said the deadline would "make Whitehall work".
Speaking to the BBC's Today programme, he said: "It is hard enough to motivate Whitehall at the best of times - they are not necessarily coming into the office, they don't seem to be working with the efficiency one would like.
"Without a deadline, nothing will happen and we will retain these EU laws for a long time."

This is now a recurring theme “the wokey/left/civil servants/elite are stopping us doing what we want to do.”. cry cry

And Sunak is one of them now 😆

rjsterry

secretsqirrel said:

From the BBC…

But Mr Rees-Mogg said the deadline would "make Whitehall work".
Speaking to the BBC's Today programme, he said: "It is hard enough to motivate Whitehall at the best of times - they are not necessarily coming into the office, they don't seem to be working with the efficiency one would like.
"Without a deadline, nothing will happen and we will retain these EU laws for a long time."

This is now a recurring theme “the wokey/left/civil servants/elite are stopping us doing what we want to do.”. cry cry

And Sunak is one of them now 😆

JRM will be lucky to retain his seat, let alone have to worry about being in government.

sungod

whining brexiter still whining...

https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/15/dyson_uk_science_tech/

surrey_commuter

prominent Brexshiteer Rocco Forte is so disillusioned he is going to move to the EU

https://ukdaily.news/brexit-advocate-sir-rocco-forte-says-hes-packing-his-bags-for-italy-486781.html

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

prominent Brexshiteer Rocco Forte is so disillusioned he is going to move to the EU

https://ukdaily.news/brexit-advocate-sir-rocco-forte-says-hes-packing-his-bags-for-italy-486781.html

The article says he'll move to Italy if Labour win the next election. Thanks for posting that

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

prominent Brexshiteer Rocco Forte is so disillusioned he is going to move to the EU

https://ukdaily.news/brexit-advocate-sir-rocco-forte-says-hes-packing-his-bags-for-italy-486781.html

The article says he'll move to Italy if Labour win the next election. Thanks for posting that

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

prominent Brexshiteer Rocco Forte is so disillusioned he is going to move to the EU

https://ukdaily.news/brexit-advocate-sir-rocco-forte-says-hes-packing-his-bags-for-italy-486781.html

The article says he'll move to Italy if Labour win the next election. Thanks for posting that

You of all people should know about Italy’s rather generous tax break for new immigrants who earn over a certain amount.