BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Made I larf the bolded bit.rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
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This is bollox, it's pretty much how the 'working class' managed even when I was a kid. You didn't see strawberries in the winter, even chips were rubbish at certain times of the year as they were using new potatoes.rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.1 -
If you only eat locally, your costs will go up.Pross said:
This is bollox, it's pretty much how the 'working class' managed even when I was a kid. You didn't see strawberries in the winter, even chips were rubbish at certain times of the year as they were using new potatoes.rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.0 -
With regards the short term shortages we are seeing at present, Brexit is surely the major factor as to why UK supermarkets aren't getting food. Country's like Morocco (which take up some slack when places like Spain's harvest is affected) are subsidised through the EU and have easier access to supply EU food distributors. Sourcing food directly from many places is far more costly for UK suppliers. UK supermarkets won't pay the prices, so obviously the food will go where the money is (hence why smaller UK independent's have stock as they have paid the prices and passed the cost on to consumers). We are basically priced out of the market when a food shortage like this occurs.
Long term (and this has been an issue for years) is an over reliance on cheap food via supermarkets. If UK growers can no longer afford to grow, and sourcing food from elsewhere is too expensive, our supply is massively at risk. Basically we need to start paying more for our food.
The argument against this is obviously that people cannot afford higher food prices. Jay Rayner perhaps puts it best when he says that this is not a food price problem but a poverty problem. Making food cheap is unsustainable, we need to address the massive wealth inequality so that people can earn more and pay more, and we can start to restructure industries such as agriculture, which long term will collapse if growers cannot afford to grow food.0 -
rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.
Of course we have been moving food around for millennia, but equally we've been eating local and seasonal food for millennia, because it's cheaper, on the whole. And if it's not cheaper, that's because the market is massively distorted. If we have to heat massive greenhouses to eat summer food in winter, that's no more sustainable than pointlessly driving private cars just for the fun of it.0 -
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41130-021-00148-wbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.
Of course we have been moving food around for millennia, but equally we've been eating local and seasonal food for millennia, because it's cheaper, on the whole. And if it's not cheaper, that's because the market is massively distorted. If we have to heat massive greenhouses to eat summer food in winter, that's no more sustainable than pointlessly driving private cars just for the fun of it.
https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/05/27/local-food-sustainable-food-evidence-says-otherwise-15571
https://scienceline.org/2020/05/why-eating-local-isnt-always-best-for-the-environment/
For the same reason it makes sense for us not grow our own food ourselves in our gardens - the same applies across the world.0 -
I thought progress meant I don't have to eat only swedes and bitter kale all winter.
If you want to, fair enough, go ahead.0 -
I suffered these articles for the benefit of the forum. Growing locally can be less environmentally friendly than importing depending on the method used for growing. Shipping food has relatively low impact compared to other aspects of farming.rick_chasey said:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41130-021-00148-wbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.
Of course we have been moving food around for millennia, but equally we've been eating local and seasonal food for millennia, because it's cheaper, on the whole. And if it's not cheaper, that's because the market is massively distorted. If we have to heat massive greenhouses to eat summer food in winter, that's no more sustainable than pointlessly driving private cars just for the fun of it.
https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/05/27/local-food-sustainable-food-evidence-says-otherwise-15571
https://scienceline.org/2020/05/why-eating-local-isnt-always-best-for-the-environment/
For the same reason it makes sense for us not grow our own food ourselves in our gardens - the same applies across the world.
Feels like a dinner party argument.0 -
The eating local wasn’t the bit I thought was bollox, it was the seasonal bit being some kind of middle class construct. Up until the 80s at least this was pretty much the norm for everyone and if anything was middle class it was eating foods that weren’t in season.rick_chasey said:
If you only eat locally, your costs will go up.Pross said:
This is bollox, it's pretty much how the 'working class' managed even when I was a kid. You didn't see strawberries in the winter, even chips were rubbish at certain times of the year as they were using new potatoes.rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.
You have some weird skew on what working class life is like (or at least what it was like 40 years ago) presumably from having never lived it.0 -
I bought a cucumber in Tesco on the weekend. Panic over."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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When is baked bean season?1
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You mean you haven't stockpiled?kingstongraham said:When is baked bean season?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I just want to know when I'm next allowed to eat them.Stevo_666 said:
You mean you haven't stockpiled?kingstongraham said:When is baked bean season?
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Foods are in season at different times of year all over the world.Pross said:
The eating local wasn’t the bit I thought was bollox, it was the seasonal bit being some kind of middle class construct. Up until the 80s at least this was pretty much the norm for everyone and if anything was middle class it was eating foods that weren’t in season.rick_chasey said:
If you only eat locally, your costs will go up.Pross said:
This is bollox, it's pretty much how the 'working class' managed even when I was a kid. You didn't see strawberries in the winter, even chips were rubbish at certain times of the year as they were using new potatoes.rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.
You have some weird skew on what working class life is like (or at least what it was like 40 years ago) presumably from having never lived it.0 -
Do go on...rick_chasey said:
Foods are in season at different times of year all over the world.Pross said:
The eating local wasn’t the bit I thought was bollox, it was the seasonal bit being some kind of middle class construct. Up until the 80s at least this was pretty much the norm for everyone and if anything was middle class it was eating foods that weren’t in season.rick_chasey said:
If you only eat locally, your costs will go up.Pross said:
This is bollox, it's pretty much how the 'working class' managed even when I was a kid. You didn't see strawberries in the winter, even chips were rubbish at certain times of the year as they were using new potatoes.rick_chasey said:
Eventually you'll realise in a global market, eating locally and seasonably is even less sustainable than the current model.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
So it's more complicated than that as different fruit and veg at different times of the year cost different amounts. Some farmers recognise that being first in the season commands a higher price for their produce so they try to make their food be fully ripe earlier in the year.TheBigBean said:
But in the UK supermarket prices haven't risen, and I don't know about peppers, but a lot of the UK's tomatoes used to come from the UK and Netherlands. Therefore, if Germany always sourced all its veg from Spain and has put prices up, it is hardly surprising there isn't a shortage.rick_chasey said:
Spain provides all of west Europe with the bulk of peppers.TheBigBean said:
Where does Germany normally source its peppers from? And have they increased the prices?rick_chasey said:
Sure. Brexit *has* made UK food trade more brittle however; it's increased the cost of that trade right?TheBigBean said:
All seems pretty simple to me. The UK/Dutch market collapsed because of energy prices. The gap in the market then needed to be sourced from other markets further afield which was always going to be harder particularly when the British consumer won't pay more and transport costs clearly matter (how else can local producers compete?).rick_chasey said:Anyway, I don't think it's a Brexit issue as much as anything that involved heavy trade with the EU is a Brexit issue, i.e. Brexit has made it more difficult to trade with the EU than it was and has made that trade more brittle.
It's more acute in fresh food because of the time pressures of the trade, which is also why there is more trade with EU countries in food than say in widgets, but I don't think there is a a specific food and brexit dynamic.
Arguably Brexit has increased UK reliance on foreign food because it has so affected the labour market for UK pickers, but no brexiter seemed bothered by that and saw it as a failing of young people not wanting to do back-breaking work.
So when you get 70% drop in Spanish peppers yield, UK is gonna feel it sooner than Germany.
And yes, the harvest is 70% down, so of course pepper prices have risen.
Plus there are different models and fixed contracts farmers and producers enter into which they are obliged to meet, regardless of their costs etc. Farmers also plant according to anticipate demand and future contracts etc.
The market is fairly complicated.
You don't see any of this at the front end of supermarkets, but it's quite common for supermarkets to make small losses on certain fresh food at certain times of year.
That's worth it as having a reputation for not having staples like peppers is probably worse than just sucking up small losses for some part of the year. Supermarkets only work if they are indeed supermarkets. But they aren't in a position to change the price on a weekly basis up and down; customers like predictability.
I think that's the bit, along with the one-sided contracts with growers, that screws the market though. More dynamics pricing can't be that hard. I actually do like to eat seasonally, and when you visit proper food markets (as I do in France), you soon get to know what to buy and when. And you then look forward to the changing season, and low prices for what's 'in'.
Supermarkets have sold us the idea that all foods should be available all year round, at low prices. Perhaps we need to relearn. Supermarkets are no more 'inevitable' than private motorised transport, but we've become accustomed to both, and unable to envisage an alternative.
It's the ultimate rich middle class position that food should be local and seasonal.
We've been moving food around for Millenia.
You have some weird skew on what working class life is like (or at least what it was like 40 years ago) presumably from having never lived it.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
I do enjoy the notion that we are not to drive anywhere in order to save the planet but it is okay to fly over some kumquats for dinner. 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.3 -
M?&S has two big displays labelled "Seasonal Produce" they are currently stocked with avocados and mangos0
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Jan-March is the traditional avocado season*surrey_commuter said:M?&S has two big displays labelled "Seasonal Produce" they are currently stocked with avocados and mangos
*(depending on where you get them from. Avocados are in season somewhere all year.)0 -
Sail boats did work well and are green.rick_chasey said:
UK will be pretty miserable if you stop importing food via some sort of transport as it's been doing so for well over 2, if not 3, centuries.pblakeney said:I do enjoy the notion that we are not to drive anywhere in order to save the planet but it is okay to fly over some kumquats for dinner. 😉
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Is this all about bringing it back to when you were a kid? Smaller cities where you can drive everywhere (other thread) and limited access to various food?pblakeney said:
Sail boats did work well and are green.rick_chasey said:
UK will be pretty miserable if you stop importing food via some sort of transport as it's been doing so for well over 2, if not 3, centuries.pblakeney said:I do enjoy the notion that we are not to drive anywhere in order to save the planet but it is okay to fly over some kumquats for dinner. 😉
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I'm not that old thank you very much!rick_chasey said:
Is this all about bringing it back to when you were a kid? Smaller cities where you can drive everywhere (other thread) and limited access to various food?pblakeney said:
Sail boats did work well and are green.rick_chasey said:
UK will be pretty miserable if you stop importing food via some sort of transport as it's been doing so for well over 2, if not 3, centuries.pblakeney said:I do enjoy the notion that we are not to drive anywhere in order to save the planet but it is okay to fly over some kumquats for dinner. 😉
Tbh, just highlighting that people forget about going green when it doesn't suit.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I don't think you appreciate how recent this change has been. Most people on here grew up eating seasonal fruit/vegetables of out of a can. I can remember when we got our first freezer.rick_chasey said:
Is this all about bringing it back to when you were a kid? Smaller cities where you can drive everywhere (other thread) and limited access to various food?pblakeney said:
Sail boats did work well and are green.rick_chasey said:
UK will be pretty miserable if you stop importing food via some sort of transport as it's been doing so for well over 2, if not 3, centuries.pblakeney said:I do enjoy the notion that we are not to drive anywhere in order to save the planet but it is okay to fly over some kumquats for dinner. 😉
Nobody is saying it was better but it must have been more eco friendly1 -
RC's articles all say it's not a simplistic 'local is better' in all cases. And I'm not suggesting that we stop importing food (not least as a portion of the population would actually literally starve, given that we only produce 60%ish of what we consume). And it would be a rather boring diet in the UK if we *only* ate local.
That said, the supermarkets have conned us into not thinking about seasonality or distance, and that everything needs to be there all year round, no matter what the cost (on several levels). If you're eating something in winter that needs summer heat and light, that comes at an environmental cost.
And I personally also love the change in diet through the seasons.0 -
we have some common agricultural groundbriantrumpet said:RC's articles all say it's not a simplistic 'local is better' in all cases. And I'm not suggesting that we stop importing food (not least as a portion of the population would actually literally starve, given that we only produce 60%ish of what we consume). And it would be a rather boring diet in the UK if we *only* ate local.
That said, the supermarkets have conned us into not thinking about seasonality or distance, and that everything needs to be there all year round, no matter what the cost (on several levels). If you're eating something in winter that needs summer heat and light, that comes at an environmental cost.
And I personally also love the change in diet through the seasons.1 -
The other thing with 'variety' is that it seems to me we actually eat a lot less of what used to be traditional crops e.g. cabbage or broad beans (not that I particularly miss either).0
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You should call it a policy 😀surrey_commuter said:
we have some common agricultural groundbriantrumpet said:RC's articles all say it's not a simplistic 'local is better' in all cases. And I'm not suggesting that we stop importing food (not least as a portion of the population would actually literally starve, given that we only produce 60%ish of what we consume). And it would be a rather boring diet in the UK if we *only* ate local.
That said, the supermarkets have conned us into not thinking about seasonality or distance, and that everything needs to be there all year round, no matter what the cost (on several levels). If you're eating something in winter that needs summer heat and light, that comes at an environmental cost.
And I personally also love the change in diet through the seasons.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Careful, someone will be along to stick some solar panels on it.surrey_commuter said:
we have some common agricultural groundbriantrumpet said:RC's articles all say it's not a simplistic 'local is better' in all cases. And I'm not suggesting that we stop importing food (not least as a portion of the population would actually literally starve, given that we only produce 60%ish of what we consume). And it would be a rather boring diet in the UK if we *only* ate local.
That said, the supermarkets have conned us into not thinking about seasonality or distance, and that everything needs to be there all year round, no matter what the cost (on several levels). If you're eating something in winter that needs summer heat and light, that comes at an environmental cost.
And I personally also love the change in diet through the seasons.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
And I'll admit it's easier to have an interesting local seasonal diet in places rather further south than the UK. But (at the risk of sounding like Coffey) I think we've forgotten a lot of what grows well in the UK in the various seasons, not least as (again) the supermarkets have steered us to the uniform/ubiquitous/predictable, and producers have danced to that tune (or been put out of business - see the crisis in apple producers).
If I were being provocative, I'd say we've been brainwashed into responding to the supermarkets' agenda, in the same way we've been brainwashed into thinking that the private car is, and always will be, king. (See guns in the US, for - arguably - rather more lethal brainwashing.)
To give them their due, they've done a great job of obliterating the 'opposition' - when I first started catering for myself (in the 1980s), there were greengrocers aplenty in Exeter, and the supermarkets were hilariously more expensive for fruit & veg. There are now only three independent greengrocers in the whole of Exeter, I think.0 -
i went into a local greengrocer recently. It was £4 for a broccoli crown. When I queried this he told me it was organic. Nearly four times the price of an organic one in the supermarket.briantrumpet said:
To give them their due, they've done a great job of obliterating the 'opposition' - when I first started catering for myself (in the 1980s), there were greengrocers aplenty in Exeter, and the supermarkets were hilariously more expensive for fruit & veg. There are now only three independent greengrocers in the whole of Exeter, I think.
Moments like these make me realise I'll never make a rich person.0
