BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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But Brexit is the only time in history when a trade agreement has been negotiated on the basis of continued divergence rather than ongoing convergence.wallace_and_gromit said:
The EU is a rules-based organisation, but it frequently ignores its own rules, though only when it's expedient to do so e.g. ignoring what was obvious to everyone's pet dogs about Greece complying (or not) with the Maastricht criteria for the Euro and not sanctioning Germany when it broke the rules of the Euro re its deficit. I guess that gave the more optimistic types hope that some flexibility would be shown where there was mutual benefit in so doing.surrey_commuter said:I think too much is made of our negotiating skills, it was more important that we had a very bad hand.
Virtually the one thing that everybody agrees upon is that the EU is a rules based organisation, they behaved exactly as anticipated.
But a good example of why Brexit was doomed is that the EU has taken an exceptionally hard line re the UK's financial services. The UK regulatory regime has not been granted "equivalence" status despite still being the same, whilst the very different US regime has that status. There were never going to be any favours, particularly once the insults started flying from the Tory nutters.
FS is the jewel in our crown it would be optiistic to assume that the EU would not have a decades long plan to chip away at it.0 -
Which lots of people had seen in advance, warned them about and yet they still decided to take a seat at the table and place their bets.surrey_commuter said:
I think too much is made of our negotiating skills, it was more important that we had a very bad hand.wallace_and_gromit said:
My thinking was as follows: Whatever happened, the UK would be out-negotiated (**) given that high profile UK politicians are experienced only in misleading gullible voters, and the skills needed to outwit EU negotiators are very different. The "negotiations" mainly involved one part of the Tory party arguing with another. The negotiations with the EU involved translating combinations of specific positions that were acceptable to the EU (*) from the outset into a Treaty. The negotiation process would undoubtedly degenerate into something akin to a slanging match, eroding goodwill which would have helped the UK post-Brexit. No, the EU only does us a favour when it it overtly also in their best interests. (Though the "mood music" with Sunak in charge is much more positive.)kingstongraham said:I'm interested in what negatives you thought might occur from brexit that made you vote remain, and whether you think you were right.
(*) Honourable exception here being TM's "backstop" which gave the UK access to the Single Market without paying a fee, which is what is usually required. e.g. Norway pays circa 80% of what it would pay as a full EU member.
(**) I completely underestimated the EU's almost religious attachment to the preservation of the rules at the cost of mutually beneficial bespoke arrangements with the UK. But as I wasn't relying on this for a "good Brexit" I can simply file this under "lessons learned" rather than needing to berate myself for it.
So I didn't know for sure what negatives would emerge, but knew that numerous negative would emerge, with the chance of offsetting positives being vanishingly small.
On a less logical level I couldn't overlook:
- Who was leading the Leave campaigns; and
- - "If it sounds to good to be true then it is."
Virtually the one thing that everybody agrees upon is that the EU is a rules based organisation, they behaved exactly as anticipated.
As somebody with a degree in economics it has been fascinating to watch. If Brexit had been a success economically then it would have torn up the text books and that is why there was not a single reputable expert who thought that it would be0 -
Th intriguing question is the % split between outright lying and English exceptionalismPross said:
Which lots of people had seen in advance, warned them about and yet they still decided to take a seat at the table and place their bets.surrey_commuter said:
I think too much is made of our negotiating skills, it was more important that we had a very bad hand.wallace_and_gromit said:
My thinking was as follows: Whatever happened, the UK would be out-negotiated (**) given that high profile UK politicians are experienced only in misleading gullible voters, and the skills needed to outwit EU negotiators are very different. The "negotiations" mainly involved one part of the Tory party arguing with another. The negotiations with the EU involved translating combinations of specific positions that were acceptable to the EU (*) from the outset into a Treaty. The negotiation process would undoubtedly degenerate into something akin to a slanging match, eroding goodwill which would have helped the UK post-Brexit. No, the EU only does us a favour when it it overtly also in their best interests. (Though the "mood music" with Sunak in charge is much more positive.)kingstongraham said:I'm interested in what negatives you thought might occur from brexit that made you vote remain, and whether you think you were right.
(*) Honourable exception here being TM's "backstop" which gave the UK access to the Single Market without paying a fee, which is what is usually required. e.g. Norway pays circa 80% of what it would pay as a full EU member.
(**) I completely underestimated the EU's almost religious attachment to the preservation of the rules at the cost of mutually beneficial bespoke arrangements with the UK. But as I wasn't relying on this for a "good Brexit" I can simply file this under "lessons learned" rather than needing to berate myself for it.
So I didn't know for sure what negatives would emerge, but knew that numerous negative would emerge, with the chance of offsetting positives being vanishingly small.
On a less logical level I couldn't overlook:
- Who was leading the Leave campaigns; and
- - "If it sounds to good to be true then it is."
Virtually the one thing that everybody agrees upon is that the EU is a rules based organisation, they behaved exactly as anticipated.
As somebody with a degree in economics it has been fascinating to watch. If Brexit had been a success economically then it would have torn up the text books and that is why there was not a single reputable expert who thought that it would be0 -
Anyways, back to the actual real world. Moroccan tomatoes (those grab all you can sheeples) can be tasteless shite. The ones I have just now are. Industrial scale hydroponics cultivation vs home grow... roll on summer.0
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Agreed. The whole thing was so obviously b*llocks that one can only bash one's head on the table.surrey_commuter said:
But Brexit is the only time in history when a trade agreement has been negotiated on the basis of continued divergence rather than ongoing convergence.wallace_and_gromit said:
The EU is a rules-based organisation, but it frequently ignores its own rules, though only when it's expedient to do so e.g. ignoring what was obvious to everyone's pet dogs about Greece complying (or not) with the Maastricht criteria for the Euro and not sanctioning Germany when it broke the rules of the Euro re its deficit. I guess that gave the more optimistic types hope that some flexibility would be shown where there was mutual benefit in so doing.surrey_commuter said:I think too much is made of our negotiating skills, it was more important that we had a very bad hand.
Virtually the one thing that everybody agrees upon is that the EU is a rules based organisation, they behaved exactly as anticipated.
But a good example of why Brexit was doomed is that the EU has taken an exceptionally hard line re the UK's financial services. The UK regulatory regime has not been granted "equivalence" status despite still being the same, whilst the very different US regime has that status. There were never going to be any favours, particularly once the insults started flying from the Tory nutters.
FS is the jewel in our crown it would be optiistic to assume that the EU would not have a decades long plan to chip away at it.0 -
More interested in the forum user who voted remain but now thinks there is nothing that has been made more difficult by it.wallace_and_gromit said:
Agreed. The whole thing was so obviously b*llocks that one can only bash one's head on the table.surrey_commuter said:
But Brexit is the only time in history when a trade agreement has been negotiated on the basis of continued divergence rather than ongoing convergence.wallace_and_gromit said:
The EU is a rules-based organisation, but it frequently ignores its own rules, though only when it's expedient to do so e.g. ignoring what was obvious to everyone's pet dogs about Greece complying (or not) with the Maastricht criteria for the Euro and not sanctioning Germany when it broke the rules of the Euro re its deficit. I guess that gave the more optimistic types hope that some flexibility would be shown where there was mutual benefit in so doing.surrey_commuter said:I think too much is made of our negotiating skills, it was more important that we had a very bad hand.
Virtually the one thing that everybody agrees upon is that the EU is a rules based organisation, they behaved exactly as anticipated.
But a good example of why Brexit was doomed is that the EU has taken an exceptionally hard line re the UK's financial services. The UK regulatory regime has not been granted "equivalence" status despite still being the same, whilst the very different US regime has that status. There were never going to be any favours, particularly once the insults started flying from the Tory nutters.
FS is the jewel in our crown it would be optiistic to assume that the EU would not have a decades long plan to chip away at it.0 -
Anyway, what's happened to the ni stuff?0
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Hoping the fuss about tomatoes will distract the w***ers from instigating yet another bout of intra-party warfare.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:0 -
*chuckle*
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.0 -
Aren't there any rubber dinghies that could be used to bring tomatoes from a French Intermarche?0
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UK (and Dutch) farmers decided not to grow tomatoes this winter due to energy costs. If the government had offered financial assistance, they could still have grown tomatoes. Is this something the UK government should have done?briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I don't think they should have on the basis that out of season veg is not a food security issue.
Nonetheless, I admire the ability of people to link any event to a hobby horse. Rick will be along soon to explain how a tomato shortage should be blamed on baby boomers.
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The reason for the disruption is that at short notice we removed ourselves from the EU single market, this was always going to have downsides which in this case is manifested in a lack of out of season salad products.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I really can't get excited about it as compared to the 5% fall in GDP, £40bn annual hole on Govt finances and an increasing shortage of doctors, nurses and teachers it is irrelevant.1 -
Problems with supply from Europe are made worse by the extra complexity that Brexit introduced - it's fairly obvious. Any strains to this system will strain supply to Britain more than supply to the rest of the EU.TheBigBean said:
UK (and Dutch) farmers decided not to grow tomatoes this winter due to energy costs. If the government had offered financial assistance, they could still have grown tomatoes. Is this something the UK government should have done?briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I don't think they should have on the basis that out of season veg is not a food security issue.
Nonetheless, I admire the ability of people to link any event to a hobby horse. Rick will be along soon to explain how a tomato shortage should be blamed on baby boomers.
You can say that this is irrelevant because that's the world we now live in, which is also true.0 -
I was responding to a food security tweet. Ireland seems to have same food security issues.kingstongraham said:
Problems with supply from Europe are made worse by the extra complexity that Brexit introduced - it's fairly obvious. Any strains to this system will strain supply to Britain more than supply to the rest of the EU.TheBigBean said:
UK (and Dutch) farmers decided not to grow tomatoes this winter due to energy costs. If the government had offered financial assistance, they could still have grown tomatoes. Is this something the UK government should have done?briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I don't think they should have on the basis that out of season veg is not a food security issue.
Nonetheless, I admire the ability of people to link any event to a hobby horse. Rick will be along soon to explain how a tomato shortage should be blamed on baby boomers.
You can say that this is irrelevant because that's the world we now live in, which is also true.
https://www.irishtimes.com/food/2023/02/21/supply-of-vegetables-to-ireland-disrupted-by-poor-weather-and-energy-costs/0 -
Netherlands is also not growing tomatoes and also has a shortage.
https://nltimes.nl/2023/02/22/avocado-tomato-prices-rise-substantially-due-weather0 -
About that picture of empty Irish shelves... has something happened I haven't heard about?TheBigBean said:
I was responding to a food security tweet. Ireland seems to have same food security issues.kingstongraham said:
Problems with supply from Europe are made worse by the extra complexity that Brexit introduced - it's fairly obvious. Any strains to this system will strain supply to Britain more than supply to the rest of the EU.TheBigBean said:
UK (and Dutch) farmers decided not to grow tomatoes this winter due to energy costs. If the government had offered financial assistance, they could still have grown tomatoes. Is this something the UK government should have done?briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I don't think they should have on the basis that out of season veg is not a food security issue.
Nonetheless, I admire the ability of people to link any event to a hobby horse. Rick will be along soon to explain how a tomato shortage should be blamed on baby boomers.
You can say that this is irrelevant because that's the world we now live in, which is also true.
https://www.irishtimes.com/food/2023/02/21/supply-of-vegetables-to-ireland-disrupted-by-poor-weather-and-energy-costs/
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They do look like £ signs although it is hard to see. Lazy journalism.kingstongraham said:
About that picture of empty Irish shelves... has something happened I haven't heard about?TheBigBean said:
I was responding to a food security tweet. Ireland seems to have same food security issues.kingstongraham said:
Problems with supply from Europe are made worse by the extra complexity that Brexit introduced - it's fairly obvious. Any strains to this system will strain supply to Britain more than supply to the rest of the EU.TheBigBean said:
UK (and Dutch) farmers decided not to grow tomatoes this winter due to energy costs. If the government had offered financial assistance, they could still have grown tomatoes. Is this something the UK government should have done?briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I don't think they should have on the basis that out of season veg is not a food security issue.
Nonetheless, I admire the ability of people to link any event to a hobby horse. Rick will be along soon to explain how a tomato shortage should be blamed on baby boomers.
You can say that this is irrelevant because that's the world we now live in, which is also true.
https://www.irishtimes.com/food/2023/02/21/supply-of-vegetables-to-ireland-disrupted-by-poor-weather-and-energy-costs/0 -
We've solved the Irish border issue by annexing the Republic. Good thinking!kingstongraham said:
About that picture of empty Irish shelves... has something happened I haven't heard about?TheBigBean said:
I was responding to a food security tweet. Ireland seems to have same food security issues.kingstongraham said:
Problems with supply from Europe are made worse by the extra complexity that Brexit introduced - it's fairly obvious. Any strains to this system will strain supply to Britain more than supply to the rest of the EU.TheBigBean said:
UK (and Dutch) farmers decided not to grow tomatoes this winter due to energy costs. If the government had offered financial assistance, they could still have grown tomatoes. Is this something the UK government should have done?briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Slight shortage of tomatoes is a food security issue?briantrumpet said:
OK, so we can get by with turnips now, but maybe running out of a fairly common foodstuff, when it seems that nowhere else is having a problem, might be a symptom of a system that is slightly broken. Might it not be wise to see if there are reasons for this disruption, even if it's just out-of-season salad plants this time?
Still, on the plus side, we're giving the rest of the world something to laugh at.
I don't think they should have on the basis that out of season veg is not a food security issue.
Nonetheless, I admire the ability of people to link any event to a hobby horse. Rick will be along soon to explain how a tomato shortage should be blamed on baby boomers.
You can say that this is irrelevant because that's the world we now live in, which is also true.
https://www.irishtimes.com/food/2023/02/21/supply-of-vegetables-to-ireland-disrupted-by-poor-weather-and-energy-costs/1 -
I'm a bit concerned that Mr Leonard doesn't mention turnips.0
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The point is that when there is a shortage, EU is better set up than the UK to handle it.
That's it. So at the margins, there is a difference.
It's nothing more than the EU is a bigger market to sell into, so they will take priority, within reason.0 -
How is that helping Ireland through this crisis?rick_chasey said:The point is that when there is a shortage, EU is better set up than the UK to handle it.
That's it. So at the margins, there is a difference.
It's nothing more than the EU is a bigger market to sell into, so they will take priority, within reason.
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I think the problems in Ireland are less acute than in the UK.TheBigBean said:
How is that helping Ireland through this crisis?rick_chasey said:The point is that when there is a shortage, EU is better set up than the UK to handle it.
That's it. So at the margins, there is a difference.
It's nothing more than the EU is a bigger market to sell into, so they will take priority, within reason.
Just because everywhere has problems doesn't mean Brexit doesn't exacerbate the problem.0 -
So my sister is a fruit & veg buyer at a supermarket.
Brexit is a constant challenge, that they're working hard at to overcome.
To say otherwise is just not true. Just because they can work around it, doesn't mean it isn't a hindrance.
That isn't up for discussion.
Are the shortages caused by Brexit? No.
Is dealing with the shortages more challenging because of Brexit? Yes.
Does it make the UK's food import situation more secure? No. The opposite.0 -
What I don't get is how anybody could think it could be anything oher than as you describe.rick_chasey said:So my sister is a fruit & veg buyer at a supermarket.
Brexit is a constant challenge, that they're working hard at to overcome.
To say otherwise is just not true. Just because they can work around it, doesn't mean it isn't a hindrance.
That isn't up for discussion.
Are the shortages caused by Brexit? No.
Is dealing with the shortages more challenging because of Brexit? Yes.
Does it make the UK's food import situation more secure? No. The opposite.
In cycling terms it is like somebody arguing it is better to not ride in the peloton. Yes there are specific examples (ie crashes) that they can point to but over the course of a race, season career it is not the case.
Now imagine if INEOS announced they were fed up riding on the front and were going to leave the peloton and do their own thing in each race.0 -
Each year we save the peleton thousands of watts. Lets give those watts to Geraint Thomas.surrey_commuter said:
What I don't get is how anybody could think it could be anything oher than as you describe.rick_chasey said:So my sister is a fruit & veg buyer at a supermarket.
Brexit is a constant challenge, that they're working hard at to overcome.
To say otherwise is just not true. Just because they can work around it, doesn't mean it isn't a hindrance.
That isn't up for discussion.
Are the shortages caused by Brexit? No.
Is dealing with the shortages more challenging because of Brexit? Yes.
Does it make the UK's food import situation more secure? No. The opposite.
In cycling terms it is like somebody arguing it is better to not ride in the peloton. Yes there are specific examples (ie crashes) that they can point to but over the course of a race, season career it is not the case.
Now imagine if INEOS announced they were fed up riding on the front and were going to leave the peloton and do their own thing in each race.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono2 -
Not riding in the peloton was exactly why Pidcock won the olympicspangolin said:
Each year we save the peleton thousands of watts. Lets give those watts to Geraint Thomas.surrey_commuter said:
What I don't get is how anybody could think it could be anything oher than as you describe.rick_chasey said:So my sister is a fruit & veg buyer at a supermarket.
Brexit is a constant challenge, that they're working hard at to overcome.
To say otherwise is just not true. Just because they can work around it, doesn't mean it isn't a hindrance.
That isn't up for discussion.
Are the shortages caused by Brexit? No.
Is dealing with the shortages more challenging because of Brexit? Yes.
Does it make the UK's food import situation more secure? No. The opposite.
In cycling terms it is like somebody arguing it is better to not ride in the peloton. Yes there are specific examples (ie crashes) that they can point to but over the course of a race, season career it is not the case.
Now imagine if INEOS announced they were fed up riding on the front and were going to leave the peloton and do their own thing in each race.0 -
I still think if a horse can just live of grass, what's all the hoo-ha?0
