BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

Jezyboy

emanresu said:

john80 said:

Jezyboy said:

If there's not a shortage of fuel delivery drivers, why are the army getting in on it?

I feel this has been explained above. Care to suggest your solution to the public buying 182% of the normal fuel volumes.

The solution to the public buying 182% of the normal fuel volumes is to simply have enough drivers to supply 100% of the normal fuel volumes.

The only reason the public is buying more fuel is because of panic that there isn't enough drivers to deliver fuel.

Entirely depends on the natural variation of that number right?

Is it 182% of the average all year? 182% of what would be expected for one of the busiest weekends of parents running their kids up and down to uni and 18 months of pent up family visits?

pangolin

john80 said:

tailwindhome said:

john80 said:

The fuel example is a bad one as we never had access to a foreign pool as delivery driving of fuel is a day or Nightshift job that is well paid and has good terms and conditions.

I don't understand this sentence.

Are you saying better wages, terms and conditions were a barrier to foreign workers?

You get up every day and drive to the fuel depot. Pick up your truck and do your job then go home. Not really a job for a polish trucker is it when he has to rent a house locally to take the job. Your inability to understand how foreign workers typically work the UK market to their benefit is not my problem.

But you said it's well paid and has good terms and conditions. Why wouldn't they?

Pross

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

Trade body guy on the radio was stating that fuel sales over the weekend were 182% of normal. So given that there is not a shortage of fuel delivery drivers or fuel at depots as has been stated by the industry chiefs what's the plan cakestoppers. Should the government own as many trucks as the industry and have that many drivers to deliver fuel when the public are thick. Should fuel stations hold X times as much fuel to smooth the general publics stupidity. Should we as consumers pay for industry to have excess trucks and drivers on retainer. Or should we ask the consumer to take responsibility for their decision making.

So the shortage of lorry drivers isn’t exclusive to the UK, other EU nations have this, but they can dip into the wider labour pool (ie countries without a shortage) really easily as they are within the same market.

UK no longer has easy access to that or any other labour pool - so they can’t draw on that pool of people easily when there is more shorter term demand spikes - longer term that’s less of an issue but not everything is about the long term.

That’s what I mean by brittle - lack of flexibility.

Eventually the Uk will adjust, but that will essentially be a type of “excess” resilience. The flexibility will return but at a literally higher price.

The fuel example is a bad one as we never had access to a foreign pool as delivery driving of fuel is a day or Nightshift job that is well paid and has good terms and conditions. So if we cannot get an army guy who drives a tanker for the army to do it what makes you think the Polish guy is going to solve the problem.

Because that is what the industry is saying is the difference.

That's funny. Fuel boss after fuel boss has been on saying they don't have a shortage of drivers. As always you know best though.

I think I've just an overdose of irony.

surrey_commuter

john80 said:

tailwindhome said:

john80 said:

The fuel example is a bad one as we never had access to a foreign pool as delivery driving of fuel is a day or Nightshift job that is well paid and has good terms and conditions.

I don't understand this sentence.

Are you saying better wages, terms and conditions were a barrier to foreign workers?

You get up every day and drive to the fuel depot. Pick up your truck and do your job then go home. Not really a job for a polish trucker is it when he has to rent a house locally to take the job. Your inability to understand how foreign workers typically work the UK market to their benefit is not my problem.

I really don’t get why you are so against foreign workers when you obviously never meet them

darkhairedlord

rick_chasey said:

How does he think I ended up here?!

Many ask that question....

rick_chasey

What is curious is the labour shortages are across the wage spectrum - 1 in 5 bankers are EU27 nationals - so the whole “low wage foreigners undermining local wages” doesn’t hold up for those.

john80

rick_chasey said:

What is curious is the labour shortages are across the wage spectrum - 1 in 5 bankers are EU27 nationals - so the whole “low wage foreigners undermining local wages” doesn’t hold up for those.

It never did hence why you never heard UK bankers getting upset about wage depression. Funnily enough David Beckham never complained about foreign workers driving down wages. The fact you still can't figure out that high immigration in the lower wage range does depress wages is bordering on the farcical. It like you can't understand the different hiring policies between stacking shelves and managing a hedge fund.

john80

pangolin said:

john80 said:

tailwindhome said:

john80 said:

The fuel example is a bad one as we never had access to a foreign pool as delivery driving of fuel is a day or Nightshift job that is well paid and has good terms and conditions.

I don't understand this sentence.

Are you saying better wages, terms and conditions were a barrier to foreign workers?

You get up every day and drive to the fuel depot. Pick up your truck and do your job then go home. Not really a job for a polish trucker is it when he has to rent a house locally to take the job. Your inability to understand how foreign workers typically work the UK market to their benefit is not my problem.

But you said it's well paid and has good terms and conditions. Why wouldn't they?

There are enough Brits doing this job already but you keep going with the argument that we need to go to Lithuanian to import workers so we can all go and buy nearly double the normal amount of fuel on a weekend. Not sure how those Lithuanians will fell about their zero hours contract for the other weeks of the year or there bosses will fell about paying for all those unused tankers.

surrey_commuter

john80 said:

pangolin said:

john80 said:

tailwindhome said:

john80 said:

The fuel example is a bad one as we never had access to a foreign pool as delivery driving of fuel is a day or Nightshift job that is well paid and has good terms and conditions.

I don't understand this sentence.

Are you saying better wages, terms and conditions were a barrier to foreign workers?

You get up every day and drive to the fuel depot. Pick up your truck and do your job then go home. Not really a job for a polish trucker is it when he has to rent a house locally to take the job. Your inability to understand how foreign workers typically work the UK market to their benefit is not my problem.

But you said it's well paid and has good terms and conditions. Why wouldn't they?

There are enough Brits doing this job already but you keep going with the argument that we need to go to Lithuanian to import workers so we can all go and buy nearly double the normal amount of fuel on a weekend. Not sure how those Lithuanians will fell about their zero hours contract for the other weeks of the year or there bosses will fell about paying for all those unused tankers.

You are conflating the long term shortage of HGV drivers with a short-term crisis.

A more rational argument would be to calculate how many extra drivers we need and how long that will take and then allow immigration for that period of time on a sliding basis.

We could do the same for vets, nurses, doctors etc

pangolin

john80 said:

pangolin said:

john80 said:

tailwindhome said:

john80 said:

The fuel example is a bad one as we never had access to a foreign pool as delivery driving of fuel is a day or Nightshift job that is well paid and has good terms and conditions.

I don't understand this sentence.

Are you saying better wages, terms and conditions were a barrier to foreign workers?

You get up every day and drive to the fuel depot. Pick up your truck and do your job then go home. Not really a job for a polish trucker is it when he has to rent a house locally to take the job. Your inability to understand how foreign workers typically work the UK market to their benefit is not my problem.

But you said it's well paid and has good terms and conditions. Why wouldn't they?

There are enough Brits doing this job already but you keep going with the argument that we need to go to Lithuanian to import workers so we can all go and buy nearly double the normal amount of fuel on a weekend. Not sure how those Lithuanians will fell about their zero hours contract for the other weeks of the year or there bosses will fell about paying for all those unused tankers.

How many brits are employed as fuel tanker drivers? How many EU workers were employed doing it pre brexit?

The panic buying is an overreaction but it started because BP had to close some petrol stations, because they didn't have enough drivers...

mully79

The problem with the fuel crisis was the online press/social media.

Why do Labour keep giving a free ticket to Boris. No matter what payrise he gives truckers it won’t cost as much as a £15 minimum wage.

rick_chasey

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

What is curious is the labour shortages are across the wage spectrum - 1 in 5 bankers are EU27 nationals - so the whole “low wage foreigners undermining local wages” doesn’t hold up for those.

It never did hence why you never heard UK bankers getting upset about wage depression. Funnily enough David Beckham never complained about foreign workers driving down wages. The fact you still can't figure out that high immigration in the lower wage range does depress wages is bordering on the farcical. It like you can't understand the different hiring policies between stacking shelves and managing a hedge fund.

So look. The world's a tough place, right? More so if you're not earning so much. At the very bottom end, like in most markets, you're competing on price, not quality, right?

But that isn't going to change when you restrict the immigration - all you're really doing is making *everyone* a little poorer, with a net loss.

So, the way I see it, the solution isn't to restrict the immigration - after all, it's just an arbitrary restriction to the size of the labour market - but to make the bottom end more productive to begin with.

Whether that's better education, better skills, better infrastructure or whatever. Better policies. Maybe it's a more well thought out minimum wage.

Usually these really low paying jobs are jobs most people don't want anyway - hence the issues we have now.

So surely the solution isn't to avoid the competition, but to embrace it and kick on?

On a very anecdotal note, and it's not particularly low paid, but the tradesmen who I know whine about the influx of eastern European tradesmen are not usually competition on price but they are competing on quality of service and speed and I can see why the local Brits are annoyed - they turn up on time and get it done faster.

I have very little sympathy in that instance - the people who come over to earn a good wage are prepared to work hard and they get the reward for that.

The world doesn't owe anyone a living without pulling your finger out.

There are plenty of issues around pay and conditions at the bottom end but the problem is not immigrants - it is other policies. After people who aren't born in the UK are still people too, and people who work in the UK invariably live here.

Ben6899

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

"The economy shrinking" is quite abstract. Not being able to buy a turkey at Christmas is less so.

The Times is also reporting that there is a lack of butchers now and that your meat stuffing and pigs in blanket are also under threat.

So far then, Christmas could be "ruined" through:

No turkey
No stuffing
No Pig in blankets
No toys for the kiddies.

I'm a vegetarian with no kids. And I didn't vote for any of this.

Sleeping easy, it has to be said.

kingstongraham

Ben6899 said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

"The economy shrinking" is quite abstract. Not being able to buy a turkey at Christmas is less so.

The Times is also reporting that there is a lack of butchers now and that your meat stuffing and pigs in blanket are also under threat.

So far then, Christmas could be "ruined" through:

No turkey
No stuffing
No Pig in blankets
No toys for the kiddies.

I'm a vegetarian with no kids. And I didn't vote for any of this.

Sleeping easy, it has to be said.

It's coming your way.

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/lincolnshire-farm-pay-you-30-5971800

Ben6899

Tempting. No more Zoom meetings.

elbowloh

Ben6899 said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

"The economy shrinking" is quite abstract. Not being able to buy a turkey at Christmas is less so.

The Times is also reporting that there is a lack of butchers now and that your meat stuffing and pigs in blanket are also under threat.

So far then, Christmas could be "ruined" through:

No turkey
No stuffing
No Pig in blankets
No toys for the kiddies.

I'm a vegetarian with no kids. And I didn't vote for any of this.

Sleeping easy, it has to be said.

Yeah, we won't be missing out on Christmas as much either, as we're veggie. Kids don't need presents right?

Pross

Slightly surprised to see fuel at Frankley services on the M5 being the same price as my local fuel petrol stations (138.9 and 140.9) when motorway service tend to be 15-20p more at the best if times

Ben6899

elbowloh said:

Ben6899 said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

"The economy shrinking" is quite abstract. Not being able to buy a turkey at Christmas is less so.

The Times is also reporting that there is a lack of butchers now and that your meat stuffing and pigs in blanket are also under threat.

So far then, Christmas could be "ruined" through:

No turkey
No stuffing
No Pig in blankets
No toys for the kiddies.

I'm a vegetarian with no kids. And I didn't vote for any of this.

Sleeping easy, it has to be said.

Yeah, we won't be missing out on Christmas as much either, as we're veggie. Kids don't need presents right?

Christmas is all about the experience - can still make it fun for kids without a front room full of new toys.

It's the only Brexit benefit for me - for the most part, those who voted for it ("to get them out!") are the ones who are suffering the most.

Call it schadenfreude.

elbowloh

Ben6899 said:

elbowloh said:

Ben6899 said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

"The economy shrinking" is quite abstract. Not being able to buy a turkey at Christmas is less so.

The Times is also reporting that there is a lack of butchers now and that your meat stuffing and pigs in blanket are also under threat.

So far then, Christmas could be "ruined" through:

No turkey
No stuffing
No Pig in blankets
No toys for the kiddies.

I'm a vegetarian with no kids. And I didn't vote for any of this.

Sleeping easy, it has to be said.

Yeah, we won't be missing out on Christmas as much either, as we're veggie. Kids don't need presents right?

Christmas is all about the experience - can still make it fun for kids without a front room full of new toys.

It's the only Brexit benefit for me - for the most part, those who voted for it ("to get them out!") are the ones who are suffering the most.

Call it schadenfreude.

I also don't actually like Christmas. not since my childhood dog died on Christmas day

briantrumpet

Ben6899 said:

Call it schadenfreude.

Oi, British words for British pleasures, now that FoM for words has finished. You can only use German words if Johnson does yet another U-turn.

Oh, that's OK, you can use it. No English words could be bothered to turn up. Not enough pay. So German words get a 6-month visa. Or it might be 6 years. Depends.

john80

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

What is curious is the labour shortages are across the wage spectrum - 1 in 5 bankers are EU27 nationals - so the whole “low wage foreigners undermining local wages” doesn’t hold up for those.

It never did hence why you never heard UK bankers getting upset about wage depression. Funnily enough David Beckham never complained about foreign workers driving down wages. The fact you still can't figure out that high immigration in the lower wage range does depress wages is bordering on the farcical. It like you can't understand the different hiring policies between stacking shelves and managing a hedge fund.

So look. The world's a tough place, right? More so if you're not earning so much. At the very bottom end, like in most markets, you're competing on price, not quality, right?

But that isn't going to change when you restrict the immigration - all you're really doing is making *everyone* a little poorer, with a net loss.

So, the way I see it, the solution isn't to restrict the immigration - after all, it's just an arbitrary restriction to the size of the labour market - but to make the bottom end more productive to begin with.

Whether that's better education, better skills, better infrastructure or whatever. Better policies. Maybe it's a more well thought out minimum wage.

Usually these really low paying jobs are jobs most people don't want anyway - hence the issues we have now.

So surely the solution isn't to avoid the competition, but to embrace it and kick on?

On a very anecdotal note, and it's not particularly low paid, but the tradesmen who I know whine about the influx of eastern European tradesmen are not usually competition on price but they are competing on quality of service and speed and I can see why the local Brits are annoyed - they turn up on time and get it done faster.

I have very little sympathy in that instance - the people who come over to earn a good wage are prepared to work hard and they get the reward for that.

The world doesn't owe anyone a living without pulling your finger out.

There are plenty of issues around pay and conditions at the bottom end but the problem is not immigrants - it is other policies. After people who aren't born in the UK are still people too, and people who work in the UK invariably live here.

You can literally pick hundreds of professions that pay at or close to minimum wage that you notice when they are not done. If you can sort out the low pay in these jobs and have immigration at historic levels then please present the answer. The last 40 years have been a disaster for those competing on price. Those people are pretty happy with competition for staff between companies and sectors even if it does not suit your self interest. I doubt those on minimum wage care much for your logic that we are all going to be poorer assuming that this is even true.

rjsterry

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

What is curious is the labour shortages are across the wage spectrum - 1 in 5 bankers are EU27 nationals - so the whole “low wage foreigners undermining local wages” doesn’t hold up for those.

It never did hence why you never heard UK bankers getting upset about wage depression. Funnily enough David Beckham never complained about foreign workers driving down wages. The fact you still can't figure out that high immigration in the lower wage range does depress wages is bordering on the farcical. It like you can't understand the different hiring policies between stacking shelves and managing a hedge fund.

So look. The world's a tough place, right? More so if you're not earning so much. At the very bottom end, like in most markets, you're competing on price, not quality, right?

But that isn't going to change when you restrict the immigration - all you're really doing is making *everyone* a little poorer, with a net loss.

So, the way I see it, the solution isn't to restrict the immigration - after all, it's just an arbitrary restriction to the size of the labour market - but to make the bottom end more productive to begin with.

Whether that's better education, better skills, better infrastructure or whatever. Better policies. Maybe it's a more well thought out minimum wage.

Usually these really low paying jobs are jobs most people don't want anyway - hence the issues we have now.

So surely the solution isn't to avoid the competition, but to embrace it and kick on?

On a very anecdotal note, and it's not particularly low paid, but the tradesmen who I know whine about the influx of eastern European tradesmen are not usually competition on price but they are competing on quality of service and speed and I can see why the local Brits are annoyed - they turn up on time and get it done faster.

I have very little sympathy in that instance - the people who come over to earn a good wage are prepared to work hard and they get the reward for that.

The world doesn't owe anyone a living without pulling your finger out.

There are plenty of issues around pay and conditions at the bottom end but the problem is not immigrants - it is other policies. After people who aren't born in the UK are still people too, and people who work in the UK invariably live here.

You can literally pick hundreds of professions that pay at or close to minimum wage that you notice when they are not done. If you can sort out the low pay in these jobs and have immigration at historic levels then please present the answer. The last 40 years have been a disaster for those competing on price. Those people are pretty happy with competition for staff between companies and sectors even if it does not suit your self interest. I doubt those on minimum wage care much for your logic that we are all going to be poorer assuming that this is even true.

Where do you see the money to fund these pay rises coming from? What measures do you see being introduced to radically alter productivity in, say, social care?

rick_chasey

I assume this question is aimed at me RJS -

Maybe there aren't that many productivity improvements at certain jobs - I think i made the same argument re lorry driving.

I do think that if there is a concern that wages and conditions are too low for most locals and only people from even worse sitautions will tolerate them then there is an argument for improving the minimum wage and minimum working conditions.

I don't think the answer is to reduce immigration. It seems a very backhanded way to try to improve bargaining and isn't particularly effective.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

I assume this question is aimed at me RJS -

Maybe there aren't that many productivity improvements at certain jobs - I think i made the same argument re lorry driving.

I do think that if there is a concern that wages and conditions are too low for most locals and only people from even worse sitautions will tolerate them then there is an argument for improving the minimum wage and minimum working conditions.

I don't think the answer is to reduce immigration. It seems a very backhanded way to try to improve bargaining and isn't particularly effective.

No, more at John. If the labour shortages result in the effective minimum wage going up to, say, £15/hr. That money has to come from somewhere. In the care sector, that somewhere is public finances > higher taxes. We're already at a high point for taxes and if you see your new improved pay packet disappearing in PAYE, I'm not sure you'll think you've gained much.

kingstongraham

If everyone gets paid more, and the differentials are maintained, it just comes from inflation.

rick_chasey

I just don't understand why you want to solve pay and conditions problems without just legislating for pay and conditions, and instead making legislation about foreigners.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

I just don't understand why you want to solve pay and conditions problems without just legislating for pay and conditions, and instead making legislation about foreigners.

I'm not sure they do want to. They've just managed to kid a lot of people that their prospects haven't looked up for the last 10 years solely because of cheap foreign labour. It's now apparent how much the country relied on that labour (which really wasn't that cheap for the most part) and the only way they can polish this particular turd is to pretend it'll all magically come right in the new year.

FWIW, I think legislation is the worst option for improving pay and conditions as almost by definition there's an admission that the work isn't really worth the increased rate. Far better to make it worth everyone's while to pay more.

Jezyboy

Without adding an unnecessary air of snobbery, I would think most "professions" don't pay close to minimum wage.

Certainly all the advertised HGV jobs pay well above it, but a lot have shitty conditions.

focuszing723

Inflation, interest rates!

pangolin

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

I just don't understand why you want to solve pay and conditions problems without just legislating for pay and conditions, and instead making legislation about foreigners.

I'm not sure they do want to. They've just managed to kid a lot of people that their prospects haven't looked up for the last 10 years solely because of cheap foreign labour. It's now apparent how much the country relied on that labour (which really wasn't that cheap for the most part) and the only way they can polish this particular censored is to pretend it'll all magically come right in the new year.

It's the latest in a long line of "this is what you were really voting for when you voted to leave the EU"

Joining such hits as:

Seasonal fruit and veg is better for us anyway
and
We don't want to be in the single market really