BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

What makes you think Stevo that the U.K. can arrange more competitive FTAs than the EU?

Because I think the relative size of the economic areas negotiating has the biggest impact on who gains most in trade agreements.

So I would like to know what the U.K. would be able to do that more than compensates for this?

I didnt say that.

My point to Brian is exactly my point to you. That these are theoretical arguments because the decision has been made. Embrace reality and the question is what happens next, not what might have been if things had turned out differently.

Of course the question is what happens next... but clutching at ill-defined straws as offered by the less-than-reliable Liz Truss, without any analysis of how those percentages break down, seems as futile as crying over spilt milk. They certainly don't give me any great cause for optimism, as the future seems only slightly less poorly defined than it was before the election.

And the man in denial about Brexit isn't clutching at straws?

Show me where I'm clutching at straws or where I'm in denial about Brexit since the election. I'll be the first to admit (it'll come as no surprise to you) that I still think Brexit is not going to go well, but I'm not going to quote PR puff from Liz Truss in the guise of meaningless percentages to bolster my case.

I see no reason to be cheerful about the situation we're in, but that's not clutching at straws. That's just me being miserable. I'm glad Liz Truss makes you happy.

Just a page or so back you were still trying to argue that we would be better off staying in the EU. How likely do you think that is?

That's not clutching at straws or being in denial, just my opinion of what I see as a regrettable (and misguided) decision. I accept we're not going to stay in, which is why it's important to have a clear idea of what's going to happen. That's not helped by statistical obfuscation or puffery from those who are going to have to make hard choices.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

What makes you think Stevo that the U.K. can arrange more competitive FTAs than the EU?

Because I think the relative size of the economic areas negotiating has the biggest impact on who gains most in trade agreements.

So I would like to know what the U.K. would be able to do that more than compensates for this?

I didnt say that.

My point to Brian is exactly my point to you. That these are theoretical arguments because the decision has been made. Embrace reality and the question is what happens next, not what might have been if things had turned out differently.

Of course the question is what happens next... but clutching at ill-defined straws as offered by the less-than-reliable Liz Truss, without any analysis of how those percentages break down, seems as futile as crying over spilt milk. They certainly don't give me any great cause for optimism, as the future seems only slightly less poorly defined than it was before the election.

And the man in denial about Brexit isn't clutching at straws?

Show me where I'm clutching at straws or where I'm in denial about Brexit since the election. I'll be the first to admit (it'll come as no surprise to you) that I still think Brexit is not going to go well, but I'm not going to quote PR puff from Liz Truss in the guise of meaningless percentages to bolster my case.

I see no reason to be cheerful about the situation we're in, but that's not clutching at straws. That's just me being miserable. I'm glad Liz Truss makes you happy.

Just a page or so back you were still trying to argue that we would be better off staying in the EU. How likely do you think that is?

That's not clutching at straws or being in denial, just my opinion of what I see as a regrettable (and misguided) decision. I accept we're not going to stay in, which is why it's important to have a clear idea of what's going to happen. That's not helped by statistical obfuscation or puffery from those who are going to have to make hard choices.

OK, at least you accept the reality.

However I was simply trying to give some positive news about exports and cheer up you miserable bunch in the festive period, as it's clearly needed. Judging by the negative reaction clearly it hasn't worked.

Merry Brexmas folks

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

You mean that the sort of Free Trade Agreement that we might conclude with the EU is driving much larger export growth than current UK arrangement with the EU? If so, that bodes well for the future

Er, are we still in the EU, and still trading with the ROW under the terms negotiated by the EU? Isn't that an 'is' and not a 'might'? (or 'might not be')?

How many of those individual FTAs with the ROW will have to be renegotiated? Easiest process in history?

My point is fhat your statement implies FTAs create a lot of growth. It's pretty likely we will get a FTA with the EU, but regardless of that you really need to move on from 'crying over spilt milk' as Brexit is happening - so the focus need to be on the future deals with both the EU and other major trade partners.

Whether these future arrangements will be better or worse than what we have currently is now pretty irrelevant.

Not directed specifically at you but how long before people realise that getting an FTA is not binary, they come in many shapes and forms.

Aimed specifically at you - you put up some spurious statistics to prove Brexit is great, when it was pointed out they spurious stats you got all defensive.

Do you not think it would be helpful to break the stats into trade with E.U., EU FTAs and ROW. That way we could see the uplift from negotiating better (UK specific) deals with each part. For those that care they could also see if deficits were widening or narrowing.

Yep, agree, FTA's are bespoke things.

I've argued that the economic potential of FTA's with rest of the world is material given the size of the ROW outside of the EU. I've also argued that the economic impact of Brexit is probably not as apocalyptic as some on here try to make out. Quite a few times in both cases. But I don't recall getting defensive. If it's not those you'd have to link back to the specific part of the thread so I can comment.

Getting defensive is saying “we are leaving get over it”

Pointing out the irrelevance of somebody's argument to the real world is simply telling it as it is. As you are supporting his point, your argument is also irrelevant. I would say that's more offensive than defensive, don't you think?

Just under half of all UK trade is with the EU, so that trade agreement is more important than any other.

If the U.K. can’t get an advantageous deal with the EU, I don’t hold much hope for other big markets.

No one can answer how they expect the U.K. not to get outmuscled by economies 4x or more bigger in a way the EU, as the biggest single market in the world, doesn’t.

Missing the point yet again. Just to be clear; the decision has been taken, we are leaving so all these debates about whether it's better to stay from a trade, economic or other point of view are pointless. Hence the irrelevance of what you were saying above.

Nope. He's talking about our future trading arrangements with the EU, which presupposes we have left. Those future arrangements are very much not irrelevant.

briantrumpet

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

You mean that the sort of Free Trade Agreement that we might conclude with the EU is driving much larger export growth than current UK arrangement with the EU? If so, that bodes well for the future

Er, are we still in the EU, and still trading with the ROW under the terms negotiated by the EU? Isn't that an 'is' and not a 'might'? (or 'might not be')?

How many of those individual FTAs with the ROW will have to be renegotiated? Easiest process in history?

My point is fhat your statement implies FTAs create a lot of growth. It's pretty likely we will get a FTA with the EU, but regardless of that you really need to move on from 'crying over spilt milk' as Brexit is happening - so the focus need to be on the future deals with both the EU and other major trade partners.

Whether these future arrangements will be better or worse than what we have currently is now pretty irrelevant.

Not directed specifically at you but how long before people realise that getting an FTA is not binary, they come in many shapes and forms.

Aimed specifically at you - you put up some spurious statistics to prove Brexit is great, when it was pointed out they spurious stats you got all defensive.

Do you not think it would be helpful to break the stats into trade with E.U., EU FTAs and ROW. That way we could see the uplift from negotiating better (UK specific) deals with each part. For those that care they could also see if deficits were widening or narrowing.

Yep, agree, FTA's are bespoke things.

I've argued that the economic potential of FTA's with rest of the world is material given the size of the ROW outside of the EU. I've also argued that the economic impact of Brexit is probably not as apocalyptic as some on here try to make out. Quite a few times in both cases. But I don't recall getting defensive. If it's not those you'd have to link back to the specific part of the thread so I can comment.

Getting defensive is saying “we are leaving get over it”

Pointing out the irrelevance of somebody's argument to the real world is simply telling it as it is. As you are supporting his point, your argument is also irrelevant. I would say that's more offensive than defensive, don't you think?

Just under half of all UK trade is with the EU, so that trade agreement is more important than any other.

If the U.K. can’t get an advantageous deal with the EU, I don’t hold much hope for other big markets.

No one can answer how they expect the U.K. not to get outmuscled by economies 4x or more bigger in a way the EU, as the biggest single market in the world, doesn’t.

Missing the point yet again. Just to be clear; the decision has been taken, we are leaving so all these debates about whether it's better to stay from a trade, economic or other point of view are pointless. Hence the irrelevance of what you were saying above.

Nope. He's talking about our future trading arrangements with the EU, which presupposes we have left. Those future arrangements are very much not irrelevant.

Indeed, especially given that we've still got no idea what 'leaving' actually means, in practical terms: one word, or a three-word slogan, is neither a concrete plan, nor a legal document. Even if Parliament waves through an incomplete and incoherent 'aspiration' dressed up as and Act of Parliament, the other interested parties (the EU and ROW) will be looking at the fine text to see what advantage they can get.

rjsterry

It's got very little to do with Parliament now. The WAB removes most of the oversight, so it's just down to which of the two mutually exclusive aims Johnson concedes: zero-tariff/zero-quota on goods or regulatory divergence.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

It's got very little to do with Parliament now. The WAB removes most of the oversight, so it's just down to which of the two mutually exclusive aims Johnson concedes: zero-tariff/zero-quota on goods or regulatory divergence.

The trade off is level playing field conditions vs zero tarifs and quotas. Also, there is a trade off between regulatory divergence and customs checks. The first of these is considered in the future declaration.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

You mean that the sort of Free Trade Agreement that we might conclude with the EU is driving much larger export growth than current UK arrangement with the EU? If so, that bodes well for the future

Er, are we still in the EU, and still trading with the ROW under the terms negotiated by the EU? Isn't that an 'is' and not a 'might'? (or 'might not be')?

How many of those individual FTAs with the ROW will have to be renegotiated? Easiest process in history?

My point is fhat your statement implies FTAs create a lot of growth. It's pretty likely we will get a FTA with the EU, but regardless of that you really need to move on from 'crying over spilt milk' as Brexit is happening - so the focus need to be on the future deals with both the EU and other major trade partners.

Whether these future arrangements will be better or worse than what we have currently is now pretty irrelevant.

Not directed specifically at you but how long before people realise that getting an FTA is not binary, they come in many shapes and forms.

Aimed specifically at you - you put up some spurious statistics to prove Brexit is great, when it was pointed out they spurious stats you got all defensive.

Do you not think it would be helpful to break the stats into trade with E.U., EU FTAs and ROW. That way we could see the uplift from negotiating better (UK specific) deals with each part. For those that care they could also see if deficits were widening or narrowing.

Yep, agree, FTA's are bespoke things.

I've argued that the economic potential of FTA's with rest of the world is material given the size of the ROW outside of the EU. I've also argued that the economic impact of Brexit is probably not as apocalyptic as some on here try to make out. Quite a few times in both cases. But I don't recall getting defensive. If it's not those you'd have to link back to the specific part of the thread so I can comment.

Getting defensive is saying “we are leaving get over it”

Pointing out the irrelevance of somebody's argument to the real world is simply telling it as it is. As you are supporting his point, your argument is also irrelevant. I would say that's more offensive than defensive, don't you think?

Just under half of all UK trade is with the EU, so that trade agreement is more important than any other.

If the U.K. can’t get an advantageous deal with the EU, I don’t hold much hope for other big markets.

No one can answer how they expect the U.K. not to get outmuscled by economies 4x or more bigger in a way the EU, as the biggest single market in the world, doesn’t.

Missing the point yet again. Just to be clear; the decision has been taken, we are leaving so all these debates about whether it's better to stay from a trade, economic or other point of view are pointless. Hence the irrelevance of what you were saying above.

Nope. He's talking about our future trading arrangements with the EU, which presupposes we have left. Those future arrangements are very much not irrelevant.

So why still refer to staying in as a reference point? As i said above, pointless as it is not an option. And the idea that we might stay in the single market is at best wishful thinking.

You at least have the right idea that we need to be looking forward, not back.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

It's got very little to do with Parliament now. The WAB removes most of the oversight, so it's just down to which of the two mutually exclusive aims Johnson concedes: zero-tariff/zero-quota on goods or regulatory divergence.

Plenty other FTAs with the EU such as Japan, Canada and Korea have not had regulatory convergence as a requirement. The aim is substantial reduction of tariffs - which is achievable (as opposed to total elimination)

rjsterry

I think it might have been David Henig who said if we end up arguing tariffs sector by sector then both sides will have failed.

morstar

rick_chasey said:

morstar said:

To take a positive view. It is not all about size, specialism is also critical. i.e. if we provide unique or desirable products and services that are in demand, these provide leverage in trade deals that extends beyond mere market size.
Taking a negative view, outside of FS, Arms, Whisky, Salmon and History, we're simply not as exceptional as the Empire believers think and therefore it comes back to size.

Caveats, Londons strength in FS is far from guaranteed long term. Whisky and Salmon are inherently Scottish which is a whole other topic.

The opportunity for us as a small nation is in specialising, just as on the high street. A small trader has to offer something unique to leverage their position. I personally agree FS are hugely important but cannot be the only string to our bow if we are to propser, especially while limping along with a self inflicted bullet hole in our foot.

It is all about size.

Nations without it hang ups about its position on the international scene like Netherlands or Belgium understand this dynamic and understand the advantages of collective bargaining.

Britain is under the delusion that in the 21st century it can go it alone when everything points to a new three-way superpower system between the US, China and EU stuck in the middle.

British exceptionalism has a lot to answer for.

No, it's not all about size. It is all about leverage. Size is by far the easiest and typically the most effective thing to leverage but not the only thing.

Smaller organisations with strong USP's often don't deal with bigger ones as they have the balance of power that size does not trump.

Think Switzerland. Year round tourism and a strong banking sector. Does their own thing completely and is a very affluent nation. Middle east states. Highly questionable governance in many but they have oil.

The mismatch with UK expectations is that we think we have this kind of leverage which we simply don't. We do have some though as I gave examples of. Belgium and NL clearly accept they don't have enough leverage to go alone but collectively as a nation, we have said that either, we do, my organisation does, or we don't care that we don't or, we are uninformed muppets.

I think Brexit is a mix of all those positions, some informed, some not.

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

It's got very little to do with Parliament now. The WAB removes most of the oversight, so it's just down to which of the two mutually exclusive aims Johnson concedes: zero-tariff/zero-quota on goods or regulatory divergence.

Plenty other FTAs with the EU such as Japan, Canada and Korea have not had regulatory convergence as a requirement. The aim is substantial reduction of tariffs - which is achievable (as opposed to total elimination)

What about services?

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

It would be really helpful of someone - bit of a project for us amateurs I admit, but you'd think the DfT would be on this - to draw up a big table of all the trade deals we currently have as an EU member; the pros and cons of each; where it sits in terms of proportion of our existing trade; scope for improvement on the existing deal both in terms of quality (ease of trade) and quantity (potential additional trade). Then we could have an informed discussion about the benefits and losses instead of meaningless phrases like "global Britain" and quoting isolated figures.

We have to assume this has been done but that is too commercially sensitive to share.
The big question is whether the politicians will make good decisions based upon the facts

coopster_the_1st

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

tailwindhome

coopster_the_1st said:

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

And a very Happy New Year to you too.

sungod

coopster_the_1st said:

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

nonsense as usual

2019 was the year democracy died, with the rigged electoral system giving power to a lying traitor and his government, in spite of the fact that most people did not vote for it

as the losers in power will be throwing away uk citizens' rights to live and work in the eu, i'll be starting 2020 by recruiting yet more eu nationals - it makes no business sense hiring uk people who can't move and work freely or be cleared for sensitive engagements, the opportunity and investment is in the eu, not the uk

Stevo_666

sungod said:

coopster_the_1st said:

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

nonsense as usual

2019 was the year democracy died, with the rigged electoral system giving power to a lying traitor and his government, in spite of the fact that most people did not vote for it

as the losers in power will be throwing away uk citizens' rights to live and work in the eu, i'll be starting 2020 by recruiting yet more eu nationals - it makes no business sense hiring uk people who can't move and work freely or be cleared for sensitive engagements, the opportunity and investment is in the eu, not the uk

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

Also the lack of EU citizenship does not seem to be a great barrier for the numerous Japanese expats we have working over in the UK and in Europe.

Welcome to the Corbyn-free 'roaring twenties'

tailwindhome

Democracy neither died nor won.

In 2016 people voted to leave the EU.

In 2017 people couldn't agree how or who and voted to hang parliament

In 2019 people seen a deal on the table and voted for the party who would implement it.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Why? I'm comparing EU to Rest of World above, so not sure how the US is relevant to my point.

I'm sure you can Google it if you want to know.

shortfall

sungod said:

coopster_the_1st said:

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

nonsense as usual

2019 was the year democracy died, with the rigged electoral system giving power to a lying traitor and his government, in spite of the fact that most people did not vote for it

as the losers in power will be throwing away uk citizens' rights to live and work in the eu, i'll be starting 2020 by recruiting yet more eu nationals - it makes no business sense hiring uk people who can't move and work freely or be cleared for sensitive engagements, the opportunity and investment is in the eu, not the uk

Why do you describe our electoral system as rigged? Which system would you prefer and would it produce absolute majorities which seems to be your principle objection to fptp unless I'm missing your point?

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Why? I'm comparing EU to Rest of World above, so not sure how the US is relevant to my point.

I'm sure you can Google it if you want to know.

Because I'm not sure why you want to talk down the importance of EU trade, when they are on the doorstep, and on 2018 figures were slightly ahead of the US in global terms. "Only about 15%" could translate into "nearly one sixth of all world trade", if you wanted to put a positive spin on it.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Why? I'm comparing EU to Rest of World above, so not sure how the US is relevant to my point.

I'm sure you can Google it if you want to know.

Because I'm not sure why you want to talk down the importance of EU trade, when they are on the doorstep, and on 2018 figures were slightly ahead of the US in global terms. "Only about 15%" could translate into "nearly one sixth of all world trade", if you wanted to put a positive spin on it.

I think you need to re-read my post above with a more Global view and less of the 'little European' mindset.

It's a fact that around 5/6ths of the Global economy is outside of the EU. And it is definitely the case that my Group has more opportunity for growth outside of the EU. Partly due to the larger non-EU economy mentioned above, and partly due to growth rates in the different regions - generally higher outside of the EU.

This would be true regardless of Brexit.

Also you still seem to be making the case that we should stay in the EU - which as I've already pointed out is an irrelevant argument as it is not going to happen.

Stevo_666

shortfall said:

sungod said:

coopster_the_1st said:

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

nonsense as usual

2019 was the year democracy died, with the rigged electoral system giving power to a lying traitor and his government, in spite of the fact that most people did not vote for it

as the losers in power will be throwing away uk citizens' rights to live and work in the eu, i'll be starting 2020 by recruiting yet more eu nationals - it makes no business sense hiring uk people who can't move and work freely or be cleared for sensitive engagements, the opportunity and investment is in the eu, not the uk

Why do you describe our electoral system as rigged? Which system would you prefer and would it produce absolute majorities which seems to be your principle objection to fptp unless I'm missing your point?

It's only rigged when you lose. From a Lib Dem perspective it must be very rigged indeed.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Why? I'm comparing EU to Rest of World above, so not sure how the US is relevant to my point.

I'm sure you can Google it if you want to know.

Because I'm not sure why you want to talk down the importance of EU trade, when they are on the doorstep, and on 2018 figures were slightly ahead of the US in global terms. "Only about 15%" could translate into "nearly one sixth of all world trade", if you wanted to put a positive spin on it.

I think you need to re-read my post above with a more Global view and less of the 'little European' mindset.

It's a fact that around 5/6ths of the Global economy is outside of the EU. And it is definitely the case that my Group has more opportunity for growth outside of the EU. Partly due to the larger non-EU economy mentioned above, and partly due to growth rates in the different regions - generally higher outside of the EU.

This would be true regardless of Brexit.

I'm still curious as to why you seem to want to talk down the EU at most opportunities to. OK, so your group sees expansion outside of that, but would a successful EU threaten that? Wouldn't a buoyant EU economy offer your group increased opportunities?

There does seem to be an undercurrent of certain people wanting the EU to fail, and I find that odd, just as much as I'd find it odd if people want the US to fail, unless your surname is Putin.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Why? I'm comparing EU to Rest of World above, so not sure how the US is relevant to my point.

I'm sure you can Google it if you want to know.

Because I'm not sure why you want to talk down the importance of EU trade, when they are on the doorstep, and on 2018 figures were slightly ahead of the US in global terms. "Only about 15%" could translate into "nearly one sixth of all world trade", if you wanted to put a positive spin on it.

I think you need to re-read my post above with a more Global view and less of the 'little European' mindset.

It's a fact that around 5/6ths of the Global economy is outside of the EU. And it is definitely the case that my Group has more opportunity for growth outside of the EU. Partly due to the larger non-EU economy mentioned above, and partly due to growth rates in the different regions - generally higher outside of the EU.

This would be true regardless of Brexit.

I'm still curious as to why you seem to want to talk down the EU at most opportunities to. OK, so your group sees expansion outside of that, but would a successful EU threaten that? Wouldn't a buoyant EU economy offer your group increased opportunities?

There does seem to be an undercurrent of certain people wanting the EU to fail, and I find that odd, just as much as I'd find it odd if people want the US to fail, unless your surname is Putin.

orraloon

Build the wall, build the wall... Then these little Inglaanders can throw away the keys, lock themselves in, isolate themselves from reality and fester in their own filth. Luvverly.

Happy new decade. Or not.

shortfall

orraloon said:

Build the wall, build the wall... Then these little Inglaanders can throw away the keys, lock themselves in, isolate themselves from reality and fester in their own filth. Luvverly.

Happy new decade. Or not.

Stay classy Loon. Happy New Year.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Not sure about your sector SG, but for us there are more opportunities outside of the EU than in it (after all, the EU is only around 15% of the global economy and will be less post Brexit).

How does that "only around 15%" compare with the US percentage of the global economy?

Why? I'm comparing EU to Rest of World above, so not sure how the US is relevant to my point.

I'm sure you can Google it if you want to know.

Because I'm not sure why you want to talk down the importance of EU trade, when they are on the doorstep, and on 2018 figures were slightly ahead of the US in global terms. "Only about 15%" could translate into "nearly one sixth of all world trade", if you wanted to put a positive spin on it.

I think you need to re-read my post above with a more Global view and less of the 'little European' mindset.

It's a fact that around 5/6ths of the Global economy is outside of the EU. And it is definitely the case that my Group has more opportunity for growth outside of the EU. Partly due to the larger non-EU economy mentioned above, and partly due to growth rates in the different regions - generally higher outside of the EU.

This would be true regardless of Brexit.

I'm still curious as to why you seem to want to talk down the EU at most opportunities to. OK, so your group sees expansion outside of that, but would a successful EU threaten that? Wouldn't a buoyant EU economy offer your group increased opportunities?

There does seem to be an undercurrent of certain people wanting the EU to fail, and I find that odd, just as much as I'd find it odd if people want the US to fail, unless your surname is Putin.

I'm simply putting the EU into perspective for you. Happy to have a successful EU from a Group trading perspective (as we have a reasonably significant operation in Europe), but as a Global Group the majority of opportunities lie outside of the region.

You seem to be reading in between the lines and misinterpreting my statement.

Stevo_666

shortfall said:

orraloon said:

Build the wall, build the wall... Then these little Inglaanders can throw away the keys, lock themselves in, isolate themselves from reality and fester in their own filth. Luvverly.

Happy new decade. Or not.

Stay classy Loon. Happy New Year.

I hope he continues to be as open minded and unbiased as in the last decade on the subject of Brexit

shortfall

Stevo_666 said:

shortfall said:

sungod said:

coopster_the_1st said:

Happy New Year all.

2019 was the year when democracy prevailed.

I go into 2020 being hugely proud to be British and of this country

nonsense as usual

2019 was the year democracy died, with the rigged electoral system giving power to a lying traitor and his government, in spite of the fact that most people did not vote for it

as the losers in power will be throwing away uk citizens' rights to live and work in the eu, i'll be starting 2020 by recruiting yet more eu nationals - it makes no business sense hiring uk people who can't move and work freely or be cleared for sensitive engagements, the opportunity and investment is in the eu, not the uk

Why do you describe our electoral system as rigged? Which system would you prefer and would it produce absolute majorities which seems to be your principle objection to fptp unless I'm missing your point?

It's only rigged when you lose. From a Lib Dem perspective it must be very rigged indeed.

I'm not sure how it's rigged at all if I'm honest but I'm open to persuasion if SG wants to respond. Our system may not be perfect but we had a referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which rejected change by a sizeable majority. Neither of the main parties is calling for change now and the Lib Dems having lost the AV referendum seem to have shut up about it now too, not that anyone cares what they think anymore. If I've understood him right SG is saying that the Brexit referendum is invalid as "most people did not vote for it" despite there being a majority of those eligible to vote coming out in favour of leave. Is he saying that he would only accept an absolute majority of the entire voting public regardless of turnout?