BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

Not sure that's the case now that he has a large enough majority to ignore the ERG.

He's giving them a Brexit and his reasoning was that it should happen to prove that it wasn't the EU's fault but it's because the British are lazy, unskilled and bad at management.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Working in a multinational business I can tell you we are better than quite a few other European countries on those points. I know it goes against the stereotype but I'm telling it as I see it

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

Militarily NATO has that covered. And we will be cooperating in other related areas.

It's better not to have the conditions that result in the conflicts, as well as being able to deal with them if they happen.

Fights are typically with other parties. EU or no EU, the idea of the likes of France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc fighting each other these days is just not an issue. And interestingly one of the main reasons for creating the EU in the first place.

I believe that's pretty much the point that the quote was making.

"The European Union has done much to reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across our continent." Conservative party manifesto 2010

OK, so you believe the Tory party manifesto. Good start

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

Not sure that's the case now that he has a large enough majority to ignore the ERG.

He's giving them a Brexit and his reasoning was that it should happen to prove that it wasn't the EU's fault but it's because the British are lazy, unskilled and bad at management.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Working in a multinational business I can tell you we are better than quite a few other European countries on those points. I know it goes against the stereotype but I'm telling it as I see it

Like I say, I'm just quoting the PM.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

Militarily NATO has that covered. And we will be cooperating in other related areas.

It's better not to have the conditions that result in the conflicts, as well as being able to deal with them if they happen.

Fights are typically with other parties. EU or no EU, the idea of the likes of France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc fighting each other these days is just not an issue. And interestingly one of the main reasons for creating the EU in the first place.

I believe that's pretty much the point that the quote was making.

"The European Union has done much to reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across our continent." Conservative party manifesto 2010

OK, so you believe the Tory party manifesto. Good start

Just a shame the Tory party doesn't !

coopster_the_1st

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

I see you are still on a diet of lemons

kingstongraham

coopster_the_1st said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

I see you are still on a diet of lemons

Don't shoot the messenger, listen to your saviour.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

coopster_the_1st said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

I see you are still on a diet of lemons

Don't shoot the messenger, listen to your saviour.

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...but he does seem to have a bit of a following

tailwindhome

I must say, part of me is disappointed we never got to find out exactly what would have happened with a no deal (no withdrawal agreement) brexit.

mr_goo

I see that the sale of Cobham Engineering to US firm just got approved. Strange that it happened just after the majority Tory win and that Andrea Leadsome doesn't think it risky letting a key contractor to MoD be sold overseas.
Is this the first Brexit deal with USA.
I smell something here and it isn't pleasant.

pblakeney

Do some research into ITAR regulations and you will probably find that nothing new has been given away. Chances are that Cobham already use U.S. tech and the U.S. is always in charge.

kingstongraham

This is priceless - Swinson out because the local council upset the bowls club.


https://www.milngavieherald.co.uk/news/politics/allander-indoor-bowlers-vent-their-anger-at-ballot-box-1-5064968/amp?__twitter_impression=true

thecycleclinic

Anger the old at your peril. They turnout and vote.

ugo.santalucia

Been out of action a while as my dad passed away. As a non-Tory supporter, I am glad the nation has spoken, one way or the other, and it is clear the nation still wants Brexit, despite the mess the previous administration made of this deal. It's all good, ultimately stability is what matters and with a strong majority Boris will manage to get quite a few things done.
To those who hate him because he is a liar, I like to remind that both Churchill and Kennedy had strong links with organised crime... so being a crook of some sort is not necessarily bad for the nation and probably (just probably) Boris is better than a weak Corbyn administration kept together with a shoestring

Merry Christmas to all

sungod

good to see control being taken back...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50874181

thecycleclinic

Ugo quite right. The opposition needed a smashing to understand the folly of there position. I see no evidence that labour or the lib dems have understood why they have been defeated and the SNP think that they have the right to decide the future of the u.k, the english, welsh and northern irish apparently have no say. Boris and the conservatives like it or not are the only game in town. We just have to hope letters and meetings with our mps have an effect. I started with a letter to the tory mp for south suffolk and I got a good reply. If you have concerns write a well written letter. Ots the power we have such as it is.

ddraver

The Northern Irish may get it now they have voted in more Republican Candidates than Unionist, The Welsh don't get it because they haven't voted in enough Welsh nationalist candidates.

The mandate from the 2019 election for 'Scexit' is almost exactly the same as that for Brexit now...

rick_chasey

Sorry to hear that Ugo. Hope you’re doing ok.

ugo.santalucia

rick_chasey said:

Sorry to hear that Ugo. Hope you’re doing ok.

Thanks... yes, haven't really processed the all thing, not sure when or if I will... I guess this extended time off work and on the bike will be good

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia said:

Been out of action a while as my dad passed away. As a non-Tory supporter, I am glad the nation has spoken, one way or the other, and it is clear the nation still wants Brexit, despite the mess the previous administration made of this deal. It's all good, ultimately stability is what matters and with a strong majority Boris will manage to get quite a few things done.
To those who hate him because he is a liar, I like to remind that both Churchill and Kennedy had strong links with organised crime... so being a crook of some sort is not necessarily bad for the nation and probably (just probably) Boris is better than a weak Corbyn administration kept together with a shoestring

Merry Christmas to all

Condolences Ugo. These things are never easy.

And I agree with your post above.

Stevo_666

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

morstar

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

What's the measure though? We have mature and sizeable trading relationships with the Eu. Growing a small market will see much larger %age growth.

Stevo_666

morstar said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

What's the measure though? We have mature and sizeable trading relationships with the Eu. Growing a small market will see much larger %age growth.

Maybe indicative of low EU growth?

It also helps to put Brexit into perspective and shows where our future trade growth wil, come from.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

You mean that the sort of Free Trade Agreement that we might conclude with the EU is driving much larger export growth than current UK arrangement with the EU? If so, that bodes well for the future

morstar

Stevo_666 said:

morstar said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

What's the measure though? We have mature and sizeable trading relationships with the Eu. Growing a small market will see much larger %age growth.

Maybe indicative of low EU growth?

It also helps to put Brexit into perspective and shows where our future trade growth wil, come from.

Missed the link. Reading the numbers now.

Jeremy.89

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

Presumably once we get out of the EU we'll be able to grow these trade relationships much quicker? After all it's surely a minor miracle that we can do any trade at all with the rest of the world whilst the shackles of the EU are holding its down.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

You mean that the sort of Free Trade Agreement that we might conclude with the EU is driving much larger export growth than current UK arrangement with the EU? If so, that bodes well for the future

Er, are we still in the EU, and still trading with the ROW under the terms negotiated by the EU? Isn't that an 'is' and not a 'might'? (or 'might not be')?

How many of those individual FTAs with the ROW will have to be renegotiated? Easiest process in history?

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

And hefe's a spot of Christmas cheer: British exports to the rest of the world outside the EU were up by 6.3% in the 12 months to September 2019:
https://gov.uk/government/news/five-times-more-demand-for-uk-exports-from-outside-the-eu
Even exports to the EU were up by 1.3% in the same period.

How strange - my ill informed perception was that despite the slump in Sterling the balance of payments deficit was ballooning.

I only skim read the link but found it strange that they did not mention our new FTA with Japan courtesy of the E.U.

So not good news for you then?

Interesting that we are growing our exports to ROW nearly 5× faster than with the rest of the EU. Clearly there are factors other than the existence of FTAs.

Is there a breakdown of what percentage of that trade with ROW is through EU-negotiated trade agreements?... obviously not that I'd accuse Liz Truss of putting Brexit-ready spin on the figures, obvs.

You mean that the sort of Free Trade Agreement that we might conclude with the EU is driving much larger export growth than current UK arrangement with the EU? If so, that bodes well for the future

Er, are we still in the EU, and still trading with the ROW under the terms negotiated by the EU? Isn't that an 'is' and not a 'might'? (or 'might not be')?

How many of those individual FTAs with the ROW will have to be renegotiated? Easiest process in history?

My point is fhat your statement implies FTAs create a lot of growth. It's pretty likely we will get a FTA with the EU, but regardless of that you really need to move on from 'crying over spilt milk' as Brexit is happening - so the focus need to be on the future deals with both the EU and other major trade partners.

Whether these future arrangements will be better or worse than what we have currently is now pretty irrelevant.