BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

kingstongraham

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

morstar

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

Pales into insignificance against the backdrop of a blue passport though!

But seriously, well put.
I do concur with Stevo that it is at least clear that it is now going to go ahead so we move on and make ourselves successful whatever our views. It is still complete idiocy, but it is no longer in our hands.

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

Stevo_666 said:

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

Bloody free marketeers, only free market when it suits them.

Stevo continues his anti-competitive traits at every opportunity. This week; competition for labour from mobile workers from around the globe.

Free marketeering and protectionism always come as a package.
US = internal free market, external barriers to inwards goods.
EU = internal free market, external barriers to inwards goods.
China, ditto.
The JRM model of totally free market is a truly exceptional model. The 3 globally successfully free markets are all huge players with lots of protection.
GB is Taking a bold path considering its dependency on imports.

Maybe Rick should look at the anti-competitive trade barriers put up by the EU?

My point is that they all do that. Total free market ideology is a myth. All of the big free markets make internal trade free whilst having barriers externally to leverage their might and trade externally on preferable terms.
Eu is no different to US or China in this regard.

Inward freedom, external protectionism.

It's nations behaving like large multinationals. A group of companies leverage their size to drive internal efficiencies and compete against others. This is perfectly natural behaviour.

What is odd is thinking removing all barriers will benefit a small player when it is clearly most advantageous to the larger organisations you are competing / trading with. Unless you have a really strong USP and positive trade balance.

You are actually looking at this the wrong way round. Historically all countries have had trade barriers with all other countries, the post-war trend is to form trade blocs. Many assume the way forwards is for the trade blocs to cooperate and possibly merge. There are obviously outliers like North Korea and UK who do not subscribe to this theory.

I don’t think we’re on a different pages.
The blocs themselves are growing where they see cultural alignment or advantage. It is essential with US, EU and China being so influential for other countries to form blocs but those blocs have polar opposite approaches to trade inside the bloc to outside.
Interesting (and accurate) alignment of our approach to that of North Korea.
Shall dust off my ballistics books and become a rocket scientist.

Longshot

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

surrey_commuter

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

Stevo_666 said:

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

Bloody free marketeers, only free market when it suits them.

Stevo continues his anti-competitive traits at every opportunity. This week; competition for labour from mobile workers from around the globe.

Free marketeering and protectionism always come as a package.
US = internal free market, external barriers to inwards goods.
EU = internal free market, external barriers to inwards goods.
China, ditto.
The JRM model of totally free market is a truly exceptional model. The 3 globally successfully free markets are all huge players with lots of protection.
GB is Taking a bold path considering its dependency on imports.

Maybe Rick should look at the anti-competitive trade barriers put up by the EU?

My point is that they all do that. Total free market ideology is a myth. All of the big free markets make internal trade free whilst having barriers externally to leverage their might and trade externally on preferable terms.
Eu is no different to US or China in this regard.

Inward freedom, external protectionism.

It's nations behaving like large multinationals. A group of companies leverage their size to drive internal efficiencies and compete against others. This is perfectly natural behaviour.

What is odd is thinking removing all barriers will benefit a small player when it is clearly most advantageous to the larger organisations you are competing / trading with. Unless you have a really strong USP and positive trade balance.

You are actually looking at this the wrong way round. Historically all countries have had trade barriers with all other countries, the post-war trend is to form trade blocs. Many assume the way forwards is for the trade blocs to cooperate and possibly merge. There are obviously outliers like North Korea and UK who do not subscribe to this theory.

I don’t think we’re on a different pages.
The blocs themselves are growing where they see cultural alignment or advantage. It is essential with US, EU and China being so influential for other countries to form blocs but those blocs have polar opposite approaches to trade inside the bloc to outside.
Interesting (and accurate) alignment of our approach to that of North Korea.
Shall dust off my ballistics books and become a rocket scientist.

my poor phraseology, we are agreeing but I am trying to make the point that the barriers to trade with the EU members always existed and that the change is that have free trade internally. ie the EU has maintained the walls not that they have put them up.

rjsterry

Because it would force the country to stop being so lazy might be a hard sell. People want easy solutions that chiefly involve somebody else.

kingstongraham

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

rick_chasey

People will just blame brexit in the future.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Bailey has it already.

I know I will get told off but it is almost as if only an idiot would support Brexit

I think that's what quite a few remainer mps said (Grieve, Ummuna, Gauke, Soubry etc) and they got 'told off' by the electorate.

does not mean they are not right to consider it to be an act of economic stupidity

They will have plenty of time to consider it now.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Don't see the correlation re Bailey appointment, but I'm not really gonna disagree.

apparently candidates were rejected for not being supportive of brexit. Bailey is currently head of the FCA and most consider him very lucky not to have been fired.

Why? Because of his views on Brexit or some other reason?

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

rjsterry

They buy less of our stuff. And more generally, economic slowdowns tend to global events.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Don't see the correlation re Bailey appointment, but I'm not really gonna disagree.

apparently candidates were rejected for not being supportive of brexit. Bailey is currently head of the FCA and most consider him very lucky not to have been fired.

Why? Because of his views on Brexit or some other reason?

Have been a lot of scandals e.g. Woodford, London capital & finance and a bunch of others that the FCA (which he was leading) did nothing about until it was all too late.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

Militarily NATO has that covered. And we will be cooperating in other related areas.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

They buy less of our stuff. And more generally, economic slowdowns tend to global events.

Although clearly if we are more dependent on the EU and it goes into a tough economic patch (as could be happening now with the German slowdown), then the impact on us will be greater. Trade with the EU as a % of total trade has been gradually reducing, but Brexit is likely to create more diversification in terms of our trading.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Don't see the correlation re Bailey appointment, but I'm not really gonna disagree.

apparently candidates were rejected for not being supportive of brexit. Bailey is currently head of the FCA and most consider him very lucky not to have been fired.

Why? Because of his views on Brexit or some other reason?

Have been a lot of scandals e.g. Woodford, London capital & finance and a bunch of others that the FCA (which he was leading) did nothing about until it was all too late.

OK, got it.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

Militarily NATO has that covered. And we will be cooperating in other related areas.

It's better not to have the conditions that result in the conflicts, as well as being able to deal with them if they happen.

rjsterry

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Further to this, there are already signs that come January, MPs will be instructed to Not Mention Brexit to create the pretence that it is "done". Other excuses for the inevitable difficulties of negotiations will need to be found.

rjsterry

Excellent discussion on what will happen next here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000cc25

All the usual suspects involved. Peter Foster, David Henig, Mujtaba Rahman, Katya Adler and Jill Rutter.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

Not sure that's the case now that he has a large enough majority to ignore the ERG.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

Militarily NATO has that covered. And we will be cooperating in other related areas.

It's better not to have the conditions that result in the conflicts, as well as being able to deal with them if they happen.

Fights are typically with other parties. EU or no EU, the idea of the likes of France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc fighting each other these days is just not an issue. And interestingly one of the main reasons for creating the EU in the first place.

Longshot

Stevo_666 said:

EU or no EU, the idea of the likes of France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc fighting each other these days is just not an issue.

Well, you say "EU or no EU" but it may be a chicken or egg question.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Or these guys: "The European Union has done much to
reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across
our continent." "We believe Britain’s interests are best served
by membership of a European Union that is an
association of its Member States. "

I think we're already OK for democracy and rule of law here in the UK. Although I can see why certain other European nations might have needed a bit of help in these areas.

But historically, if they are not doing so well it gets a bit awkward for us too.

In what way?

Militarily from the Balkans, through the Cold War to WW2. We can't isolate ourselves from problems in Europe. I think stability in Europe is in our interests, and I think the EU has been a contributor to stability in Europe. I hope it prospers without us in it, from a selfish UK perspective.

Militarily NATO has that covered. And we will be cooperating in other related areas.

It's better not to have the conditions that result in the conflicts, as well as being able to deal with them if they happen.

Fights are typically with other parties. EU or no EU, the idea of the likes of France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc fighting each other these days is just not an issue. And interestingly one of the main reasons for creating the EU in the first place.

I believe that's pretty much the point that the quote was making.

"The European Union has done much to reconcile the painful division of Europe and to
spread democracy and the rule of law across our continent." Conservative party manifesto 2010

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Longshot said:

kingstongraham said:

Not sure I remember this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052775/We-must-be-ready-to-leave-the-EU-if-we-dont-get-what-we-want.html

Along with saying "I think the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country", Johnson's main reason for wanting to leave was that if we do, "We can no longer blame Brussels. This is perhaps the most important point of all. If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.
Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer has nothing to do with the EU. "

That is the single most compelling argument I've heard in favour of Brexit to date.

Let's prove the brexiters wrong by giving them everything they want and showing that nothing has got better.

Another idea that's maybe a tad too late?

Not really - this is Boris Johnson's idea, and it's one that's actually happening.

Not sure that's the case now that he has a large enough majority to ignore the ERG.

He's giving them a Brexit and his reasoning was that it should happen to prove that it wasn't the EU's fault but it's because the British are lazy, unskilled and bad at management.

Don't shoot the messenger.

tailwindhome

Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
·
5m
WAB Second Reading

AYES: 358
NOES: 234
MAJ: 124

Govt WIN

tailwindhome

Jayne McCormack
@BBCJayneMcC
· 14m
This is slightly odd - four DUP MPs have signed a Conservative sponsored motion calling for Big Ben to chime on the moment the UK leaves the EU, despite the party voting against Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal...

Longshot

tailwindhome said:

Jayne McCormack
@BBCJayneMcC
· 14m
This is slightly odd - four DUP MPs have signed a Conservative sponsored motion calling for Big Ben to chime on the moment the UK leaves the EU, despite the party voting against Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal...

They're obviously Rebells.