BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

darkhairedlord

HaydenM wrote:

Just back on the Scottish thing, as a generally 'No' voting Englishman living in Scotland it is embarrassing to see the level of debate in England about Scottish independence.

in what way?

haydenm

darkhairedlord wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

Just back on the Scottish thing, as a generally 'No' voting Englishman living in Scotland it is embarrassing to see the level of debate in England about Scottish independence.

in what way?

"rah rah rah they get free things and we don't"

bianchimoon

Coopster the 1st wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Tough that the MP's don't like the outcome. They serve us, not the other way around!

Representative democracy - tough you don't like the outcome!

(hint - about half the rebels are on what used to be your side a couple of years ago.)

The rebels have never been on the leave side. They proved that again last night and will rightly no longer be able to mislead their constituents.

MP's are not representing the electorate by doing everything to overturn the result of the largest democratic vote in the UK's history.

Somewhat undermined your theory that they are all just after the next paycheck, hasn't it.

Not at all. Look how many MP's that will lose their seats, who are not going to vote for a GE. They are running scared of being removed from the gravy train!

you really don't understand the way it works do you, it's those that caved to Boris's bullying are the ones running scared. The brave ones have made their stand

drhaggis

HaydenM wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

Just back on the Scottish thing, as a generally 'No' voting Englishman living in Scotland it is embarrassing to see the level of debate in England about Scottish independence.

in what way?

"rah rah rah they get free things and we don't"

...and then proceed to vote for further austerity. Mind boggling.

rjsterry

Coopster the 1st wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Tough that the MP's don't like the outcome. They serve us, not the other way around!

Representative democracy - tough you don't like the outcome!

(hint - about half the rebels are on what used to be your side a couple of years ago.)

The rebels have never been on the leave side. They proved that again last night and will rightly no longer be able to mislead their constituents.

MP's are not representing the electorate by doing everything to overturn the result of the largest democratic vote in the UK's history.

Somewhat undermined your theory that they are all just after the next paycheck, hasn't it.

Not at all. Look how many MP's that will lose their seats, who are not going to vote for a GE. They are running scared of being removed from the gravy train!

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

kingstongraham

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

If it's before 31st October, what Brexit do the Tories say they want?

surrey_commuter

Imposter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

The rebels have never been on the leave side. They proved that again last night and will rightly no longer be able to mislead their constituents.

Unless your name is John Redwood, obviously. A leaver 'representing' a constituency (Wokingham, look it up) which voted remain. I'm sure there are others..

Grayling representing Epsom a Remain constituency
Kate Hoey - representing about the most pro remain constituency and going against the Labour whip and manifesto

imposter2.0

KingstonGraham wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

If it's before 31st October, what Brexit do the Tories say they want?

A 'red white and blue' brexit....

kingstongraham

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

The rebels have never been on the leave side. They proved that again last night and will rightly no longer be able to mislead their constituents.

Unless your name is John Redwood, obviously. A leaver 'representing' a constituency (Wokingham, look it up) which voted remain. I'm sure there are others..

Grayling representing Epsom a Remain constituency
Kate Hoey - representing about the most pro remain constituency and going against the Labour whip and manifesto

Let's not forget one of the iconic Brexit moments - Hoey on a boat with Farage, then Bob Geldof pulls up alongside in another boat with a megaphone.

surrey_commuter

HaydenM wrote:

Just back on the Scottish thing, as a generally 'No' voting Englishman living in Scotland it is embarrassing to see the level of debate in England about Scottish independence.

are you referring to the complete lack of debate?

tailwindhome

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Johnson is delivering the view of the Conservative party, one sought via the democratic party mandate.

Would this be the Conservative Party he told no-deal was 'a million to one'?

Does the view of the Conservative Party reflect the intention of all 17.4 million Leave voters when they selected Leave?

morstar

Imposter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

If it's before 31st October, what Brexit do the Tories say they want?

A 'red white and blue' brexit....

Nah, cake and eat it.

haydenm

Imposter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

If it's before 31st October, what Brexit do the Tories say they want?

A 'red white and blue' brexit....

What, French?

john80

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Johnson is delivering the view of the Conservative party, one sought via the democratic party mandate.

How the 21 rebels could be so far away from the views of their party only 2 months after that view was sought is beyond me? It's like they are working for another political party or institution. The action of ignoring their party has a consequence, one that they are now finding out!

Check out the manifesto - their views are closer.

It is a Momentum-esque takeover and true Conservatives should fight it.

These idelogical one issue tw@ts should attach themselves to a more appropriate party

Unfortunately until you resolve Brexit their is not other issues. This is the same for all parties hence why it might be worth sorting.

drhaggis

HaydenM wrote:

Imposter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

If it's before 31st October, what Brexit do the Tories say they want?

A 'red white and blue' brexit....

What, French?

No, Russian.

imposter2.0

HaydenM wrote:

Imposter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that a GE will be along shortly.

If it's before 31st October, what Brexit do the Tories say they want?

A 'red white and blue' brexit....

What, French?

No, that would be blue white and red.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uqd0X8NJGk

surrey_commuter

john80 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Johnson is delivering the view of the Conservative party, one sought via the democratic party mandate.

How the 21 rebels could be so far away from the views of their party only 2 months after that view was sought is beyond me? It's like they are working for another political party or institution. The action of ignoring their party has a consequence, one that they are now finding out!

Check out the manifesto - their views are closer.

It is a Momentum-esque takeover and true Conservatives should fight it.

These idelogical one issue tw@ts should attach themselves to a more appropriate party

Unfortunately until you resolve Brexit their is not other issues. This is the same for all parties hence why it might be worth sorting.

It is a major issue for the Tories because they have roughly 15% of their members/MPs who are deranged by the subject. Frankly they are neither conservative or Unionists and should find a political party that better fits their own beliefs.

I don't see it being a major problem for LibDems, SNP, DUP, Greens, even Labour have kept a lid on it

rjsterry

Some thoughts from ConservativeHome.

The author doesn't sound overly convinced of the wisdom of the swing to the right.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetor ... wn-it.html

cycleclinic

reading the Benn bill last night it does seem to stop a no deal until 31st Jab 2020 unless the commons votes for no deal, deal or revoke. They seem to have learnt from the prorouge get around. I dont know what instruments the goverment has in its armory to get around the law. I suspect the tories might bring a bill forward to annul the Fixed term parliment act and then call an election. It would be rather bizarre if labour did not vote for the acts abolition. The goverment now has to call an election, they could not even get a budget through or a queen speech but labour will probably keep the zombie tories in power to torture the whole nation I presume. I cant see that playing well for them come vote time.

The thing for most people Brexit is not the be all and end all. Most people have a view and they expressed it once and that its. I expressed mine and for me now that its. The options are no deal, WA and revoke Article 50. There is no inbetween. Parties should state clearly which they favour and go for GE. We vote and a winning party, probably no deal get a majority and pushes that through. It might be a hung parliment in which case there should be a majoirty for one of the other two. If not well the EU wont extend indefinatley which will force the issue. That the problem so far, MP's have been putting off making a decsion. Yesterday they have opted to try to put it off again. Sadly more national torment is likely for months to come.

cooper the 1st position while covered in rusty barbs is logical (incorrect I think on the ecomonic arguments which are not what brexit is about anyway it's something deeper cultural identity). so are other views expressed here. We are all right from a certain point of view. We have to all realise though we have to live together and that means one side has to back off and the other not to gloat in victory. I dont see that happening either.

For my self given there is no agreed alternative to no deal, revoke is not popular, another deal isnt really possible and the WA is about as popular as sour milk on conrflakes I dont see any other option other than no deal. Utter shit it has come to this.

shirley_basso

I don't understand why it is undemocratic to run a new referendum on the matter? We hold GE every 3-4 years when we get sick of the current government, so makes sense to do the same for Brexit.

Also if there were a GE, I think the turnout would be pretty low. People are sick of it all.

rick_chasey

Shirley Basso wrote:

I don't understand why it is undemocratic to run a new referendum on the matter? We hold GE every 3-4 years when we get sick of the current government, so makes sense to do the same for Brexit.

Also if there were a GE, I think the turnout would be pretty low. People are sick of it all.

New ref will generate the same result more or less no?

If not it'll be even more marginal than before.

kingstongraham

Shirley Basso wrote:

I don't understand why it is undemocratic to run a new referendum on the matter? We hold GE every 3-4 years when we get sick of the current government, so makes sense to do the same for Brexit.

Also if there were a GE, I think the turnout would be pretty low. People are sick of it all.

We could have a fixed term Brexit act, where we get a referendum every 5 years when we decide whether we are going to keep arguing about it or not. Never leaving, obvs.

cycleclinic

rjsterry wrote:

Some thoughts from ConservativeHome.

The author doesn't sound overly convinced of the wisdom of the swing to the right.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetor ... wn-it.html

Thanks for sharing that. there appear to be many worried tories at the moment. a swing to the right is probably something to be expected. We get more right wing as we get older normally and britain is aging. So more back to basics right wing policies are to be expected.

cycleclinic

Shirley Basso wrote:

I don't understand why it is undemocratic to run a new referendum on the matter? We hold GE every 3-4 years when we get sick of the current government, so makes sense to do the same for Brexit.

Also if there were a GE, I think the turnout would be pretty low. People are sick of it all.

Unless a referendum is legally binding and offer the 3 options we actually have then a referendum run like the first one will do more harm than good.

surrey_commuter

thecycleclinic wrote:

reading the Benn bill last night it does seem to stop a no deal until 31st Jab 2020 unless the commons votes for no deal, deal or revoke. They seem to have learnt from the prorouge get around. I dont know what instruments the goverment has in its armory to get around the law. I suspect the tories might bring a bill forward to annul the Fixed term parliment act and then call an election. It would be rather bizarre if labour did not vote for the acts abolition. The goverment now has to call an election, they could not even get a budget through or a queen speech but labour will probably keep the zombie tories in power to torture the whole nation I presume. I cant see that playing well for them come vote time.

The thing for most people Brexit is not the be all and end all. Most people have a view and they expressed it once and that its. I expressed mine and for me now that its. The options are no deal, WA and revoke Article 50. There is no inbetween. Parties should state clearly which they favour and go for GE. We vote and a winning party, probably no deal get a majority and pushes that through. It might be a hung parliment in which case there should be a majoirty for one of the other two. If not well the EU wont extend indefinatley which will force the issue. That the problem so far, MP's have been putting off making a decsion. Yesterday they have opted to try to put it off again. Sadly more national torment is likely for months to come.

cooper the 1st position while covered in rusty barbs is logical (incorrect I think on the ecomonic arguments which are not what brexit is about anyway it's something deeper cultural identity). so are other views expressed here. We are all right from a certain point of view. We have to all realise though we have to live together and that means one side has to back off and the other not to gloat in victory. I dont see that happening either.

For my self given there is no agreed alternative to no deal, revoke is not popular, another deal isnt really possible and the WA is about as popular as sour milk on conrflakes I dont see any other option other than no deal. Utter shoot it has come to this.

Leave to the EEA and stay there whilst we figure out what our future looks like and then we can adopt policies and agreements that match that vision of the future.

This means we leave the EU and minimise economic disruption.

kingstongraham

thecycleclinic wrote:

So more back to basics right wing policies are to be expected.

I'd be willing to bet Johnson avoids using the phrase "back to basics".

TheBigBean

TheBigBean wrote:

Lengthy argument on whether the proposed bill requires queens consent. Tl;dr - it probably does which means the government could block it.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/ ... s-consent/

Bercow has given the matter consideration and concluded it does not need Queen's consent. More constitutional outrage, but who cares?

rjsterry

TheBigBean wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Lengthy argument on whether the proposed bill requires queens consent. Tl;dr - it probably does which means the government could block it.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/ ... s-consent/

Bercow has given the matter consideration and concluded it does not need Queen's consent. More constitutional outrage, but who cares?

Not read it all, but near the top the article does say that the Speaker makes the decision on whether Queen's Consent is required.

TheBigBean

rjsterry wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Lengthy argument on whether the proposed bill requires queens consent. Tl;dr - it probably does which means the government could block it.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/ ... s-consent/

Bercow has given the matter consideration and concluded it does not need Queen's consent. More constitutional outrage, but who cares?

Not read it all, but near the top the article does say that the Speaker makes the decision on whether Queen's Consent is required.

A decision which should be based on legal advice.

rjsterry

TheBigBean wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Lengthy argument on whether the proposed bill requires queens consent. Tl;dr - it probably does which means the government could block it.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/ ... s-consent/

Bercow has given the matter consideration and concluded it does not need Queen's consent. More constitutional outrage, but who cares?

Not read it all, but near the top the article does say that the Speaker makes the decision on whether Queen's Consent is required.

A decision which should be based on legal advice.

Bill Cash has raised the exact same blog in the HoC just now....are you Bill Cash?