BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

morstar

Mr Goo wrote:

morstar wrote:

On a purely practical basis, where next for the Tories. The party is splitting as it has moved to the right to compete with BP. This leaves nowhere for moderate Tories to hang their hats whilst the leave Tory has a choice of two parties to represent them.
I genuinely have no idea what an election will deliver. If we had a strong and credible opposition, I don't think it would ever have got quite so messy.
Presumably EU will make an election a prerequisite to an extension but BJ won't request one.
One thing BJ has succeeded in is the blame game which was always the primary strategy. He could never deliver his lies but has successfully manufactured the corner he is backed into. These are the foundations for his election strategy. Empower me to deliver will be his campaign.
He's playing the long game. Not without risk but phase 1 is complete.
I'm genuinely surprised he is prepared to trash both his party and the economy in the process but just goes to show how the allure of power knows no bounds.

The Lib Dems have already put forward a 23 year old to stand for the New Forest West. Just graduated and just got his first job washing dishes and waiting tables in a hotel. Bless him.
Can't wait to give him a grilling at the hustings. Assuming his boss will let him have time off.

Not quite sure what you're getting at. You are assuming some basic jobs as a 23 year old are the limit of somebodies abilities. I thought we admired the work ethic.
Or do you want only a privileged candidate who never has to do such jobs.

FocusZing

This is my house, my country, my land, my stance, my chaise lounge... The sense of entitlement is so entitled this thread needs a new title!

rick_chasey

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

Jealousy is not a good look.

coopster_the_1st

cougie wrote:

john80 wrote:

bompington wrote:

john80 wrote:

Having watched a person being taken into custody on a train from chicago to new york i woukd certainly want to get my paperwork in order and not live that. That intervention was no where near a border but i am sure some remainers will be along to claim it was a figment of my imagination.

If you seriously think this sort of thing is going to happen anywhere within 50 miles of the Irish border then
a) you don't know very much about the Irish border and
b) your great - indeed certified - intelligence is letting you down

Maybe you can explain how this 50 mile corridor will become a haven for undocumented migrants and why the local populations would welcome this scenario. The gfa allows those with an irish or british passport to live on either side and more importantly identify as their preference. Post brexit it would be logical to conclude that if you are not holding either of these nationality status then you would have to comply with the relevant nations imigration policy. I have often found those that cast aspersions on others intelligence are not that comfortable in their arguments.

Do you remember 'the troubles'?

Are you keen to have them start up again ?

Remind me what advantage there is to leaving the EU ?

You are saying the bomb should be respected more than the ballot box. You are no better than those terrorists, as you are willing to forgive terrorism as it allows you to overturn the democratic result.

rick_chasey

^^ you see what I mean about reading comprehension?

rick_chasey

What still doesn't make sense to me was why the original soft Brexit - leaving the political union but staying in the economic union - which was what was campaigned on by leave during the ref, satisfies the result, and is a middle ground for those MPs who want to 'respect the vote' but are worried about the economic cost.

Even the drawback - "no seat at the table" was discussed, and it would never have needed something like the backstop.

It boggles my mind why this was not pursued.

If that was put on the table tomorrow you'd have a majority in parliament and a not-so-onerous deal with the EU done within a month.

Norway, basically, possibly plus.

It then leaves it entirely open to future gov'ts to decide how much integration they want to have with the single market.

rolf_f

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

Jealousy is not a good look.

It's the Brexit mentality - lets drag everyone down to the bottom. It's why all the "Make Britain Great Again" stuff doesn't wash. We won't be working with Europe to everyone's best interest (after all, that is what the EU is for) - it will all be "well they are taxing this more than we'd like so we'll tax their stuff more than they'd like" and so on and so on. My life is crap so rather than try to improve it lets make their lives crap as well.

Mr Goo's post perfectly sums up the nastiness of people.

briantrumpet

morstar wrote:

On a purely practical basis, where next for the Tories. The party is splitting as it has moved to the right to compete with BP. This leaves nowhere for moderate Tories to hang their hats whilst the leave Tory has a choice of two parties to represent them.
I genuinely have no idea what an election will deliver. If we had a strong and credible opposition, I don't think it would ever have got quite so messy.
Presumably EU will make an election a prerequisite to an extension but BJ won't request one.
One thing BJ has succeeded in is the blame game which was always the primary strategy. He could never deliver his lies but has successfully manufactured the corner he is backed into. These are the foundations for his election strategy. Empower me to deliver will be his campaign.
He's playing the long game. Not without risk but phase 1 is complete.
I'm genuinely surprised he is prepared to trash both his party and the economy in the process but just goes to show how the allure of power knows no bounds.

It would be interesting if a number of those Tory MPs who have had the whip withdrawn were to move to and therefore endorse the Libdems.

It would be nice if there were a party to vote for not just on the basis of which is the least sh1t, but that does seem to be where we are: the Tories are the BP in all but name, Labour is still led by a cloth-eared fool who is wants to lead a left wing BP (but tries to cover it up), and the rest are all also-rans.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

What still doesn't make sense to me was why the original soft Brexit - leaving the political union but staying in the economic union - which was what was campaigned on by leave during the ref, satisfies the result, and is a middle ground for those MPs who want to 'respect the vote' but are worried about the economic cost.

Even the drawback - "no seat at the table" was discussed, and it would never have needed something like the backstop.

It boggles my mind why this was not pursued.

If that was put on the table tomorrow you'd have a majority in parliament and a not-so-onerous deal with the EU done within a month.

Norway, basically, possibly plus.

It then leaves it entirely open to future gov'ts to decide how much integration they want to have with the single market.

It is because the brains behind Leave have out thought and out fought the opposition at every turn. They are very good at creative destruction but have not figured out how to do the next bit.

rick_chasey

I mean even folk like me have been saying for 3 years that was the only sensible option if we’re being realistic.

Idiotic. Failed state behaviour. Plainly #10 has too much power as the quality of the PM seems to have had an outsized impact on how the U.K. has performed politically.

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

You could have always moved to Scotland.

rolf_f

And the Liar Johnson wasted no time in lying after the vote...

Liar wrote:

there be no doubt about the consequences of this vote tonight.

It means that parliament is on the brink of wrecking any deal we might be able to strike in Brussels.

Because tomorrow’s bill would hand control of the negotiations to the EU.

And that would mean more dither, more delay, more confusion.

So what deal would that be? (he has no intention of striking a deal. How can parliament be on the brink of wrecking a deal that doesn't even exist?)
What negotiations would those be? (There haven't been any negotiations).
More dither, more delay, more confusion? (How the hell can there be any more of those things? If he wants to avoid dither, delay and confusion why doesn't he just resign? He's the primary cause of all those things).

I am at a loss as to how he could have the nerve to say such things.

rolf_f

FocusZing wrote:

This is my house, my country, my land, my stance, my chaise lounge... The sense of entitlement is so entitled this thread needs a new title!

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/statu ... in-commons

briantrumpet

Rolf F wrote:

And the Liar Johnson wasted no time in lying after the vote...

Liar wrote:

there be no doubt about the consequences of this vote tonight.

It means that parliament is on the brink of wrecking any deal we might be able to strike in Brussels.

Because tomorrow’s bill would hand control of the negotiations to the EU.

And that would mean more dither, more delay, more confusion.

So what deal would that be? (he has no intention of striking a deal. How can parliament be on the brink of wrecking a deal that doesn't even exist?)
What negotiations would those be? (There haven't been any negotiations).
More dither, more delay, more confusion? (How the hell can there be any more of those things? If he wants to avoid dither, delay and confusion why doesn't he just resign? He's the primary cause of all those things).

I am at a loss as to how he could have the nerve to say such things.

Johnson's statement is both petulant and mendacious, as well as showing the weakness of his position.

briantrumpet

Can we play "Spot the war terminology" bingo? I see that Johnson slipped in the "junta" term into the debate last night, evoking not only war and dastardly foreigners, but the spirit of Thatcher too.

rick_chasey

Rick Chasey wrote:

Idiotic. Failed state behaviour. Plainly #10 has too much power as the quality of the PM seems to have had an outsized impact on how the U.K. has performed politically.

Have decided this is my theory until further notice.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

I mean even folk like me have been saying for 3 years that was the only sensible option if we’re being realistic.

Idiotic. Failed state behaviour. Plainly #10 has too much power as the quality of the PM seems to have had an outsized impact on how the U.K. has performed politically.

See Bernard Jenkin's comments on the unintentional consequences of the FTPA.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I mean even folk like me have been saying for 3 years that was the only sensible option if we’re being realistic.

Idiotic. Failed state behaviour. Plainly #10 has too much power as the quality of the PM seems to have had an outsized impact on how the U.K. has performed politically.

See Bernard Jenkin's comments on the unintentional consequences of the FTPA.

Yeah. The fact May chose the course of the negs more or less solo shows how oversized the role is.

Pross

Mr Goo wrote:

morstar wrote:

On a purely practical basis, where next for the Tories. The party is splitting as it has moved to the right to compete with BP. This leaves nowhere for moderate Tories to hang their hats whilst the leave Tory has a choice of two parties to represent them.
I genuinely have no idea what an election will deliver. If we had a strong and credible opposition, I don't think it would ever have got quite so messy.
Presumably EU will make an election a prerequisite to an extension but BJ won't request one.
One thing BJ has succeeded in is the blame game which was always the primary strategy. He could never deliver his lies but has successfully manufactured the corner he is backed into. These are the foundations for his election strategy. Empower me to deliver will be his campaign.
He's playing the long game. Not without risk but phase 1 is complete.
I'm genuinely surprised he is prepared to trash both his party and the economy in the process but just goes to show how the allure of power knows no bounds.

The Lib Dems have already put forward a 23 year old to stand for the New Forest West. Just graduated and just got his first job washing dishes and waiting tables in a hotel. Bless him.
Can't wait to give him a grilling at the hustings. Assuming his boss will let him have time off.

Yes, we should leave it all to the experienced middle aged (usually white, predominantly male) candidates.They know how to run a country properly and would never lead us into a mess. I'm sure the local Brexit Party candidate will be an experienced politician. Have you considered that a younger candidate may have more reason to consider the future of the country rather than what is best for them and their mates?

haydenm

Pross wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

morstar wrote:

On a purely practical basis, where next for the Tories. The party is splitting as it has moved to the right to compete with BP. This leaves nowhere for moderate Tories to hang their hats whilst the leave Tory has a choice of two parties to represent them.
I genuinely have no idea what an election will deliver. If we had a strong and credible opposition, I don't think it would ever have got quite so messy.
Presumably EU will make an election a prerequisite to an extension but BJ won't request one.
One thing BJ has succeeded in is the blame game which was always the primary strategy. He could never deliver his lies but has successfully manufactured the corner he is backed into. These are the foundations for his election strategy. Empower me to deliver will be his campaign.
He's playing the long game. Not without risk but phase 1 is complete.
I'm genuinely surprised he is prepared to trash both his party and the economy in the process but just goes to show how the allure of power knows no bounds.

The Lib Dems have already put forward a 23 year old to stand for the New Forest West. Just graduated and just got his first job washing dishes and waiting tables in a hotel. Bless him.
Can't wait to give him a grilling at the hustings. Assuming his boss will let him have time off.

Yes, we should leave it all to the experienced middle aged (usually white, predominantly male) candidates.They know how to run a country properly and would never lead us into a mess. I'm sure the local Brexit Party candidate will be an experienced politician. Have you considered that a younger candidate may have more reason to consider the future of the country rather than what is best for them and their mates?

Well said +1

Pross

Rolf F wrote:

And the Liar Johnson wasted no time in lying after the vote...

Liar wrote:

there be no doubt about the consequences of this vote tonight.

It means that parliament is on the brink of wrecking any deal we might be able to strike in Brussels.

Because tomorrow’s bill would hand control of the negotiations to the EU.

And that would mean more dither, more delay, more confusion.

So what deal would that be? (he has no intention of striking a deal. How can parliament be on the brink of wrecking a deal that doesn't even exist?)
What negotiations would those be? (There haven't been any negotiations).
More dither, more delay, more confusion? (How the hell can there be any more of those things? If he wants to avoid dither, delay and confusion why doesn't he just resign? He's the primary cause of all those things).

I am at a loss as to how he could have the nerve to say such things.

You'd think the easiest way for him to fight off the Bill would be to take Corbyn and the rebels into a room and explain where he is with this new, better deal and why keeping no deal as an option is essential. I'm sure that once they seen the huge progress that has been made they will come to their senses.

haydenm

rjsterry

HaydenM wrote:

I prefer the "Draw me like one of your French girls" version but they all make ready-made election posters for the opposition.

Also, the DUP seem to have lost their bargaining power.

ballysmate

Rolf F wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

Jealousy is not a good look.

It's the Brexit mentality - lets drag everyone down to the bottom. It's why all the "Make Britain Great Again" stuff doesn't wash. We won't be working with Europe to everyone's best interest (after all, that is what the EU is for) - it will all be "well they are taxing this more than we'd like so we'll tax their stuff more than they'd like" and so on and so on. My life is crap so rather than try to improve it lets make their lives crap as well.

Mr Goo's post perfectly sums up the nastiness of people.

I was a nasty comment.
But perhaps no nastier than the feelings expressed by some arch Remainers that old people, as a demographic, should suffer greater hardship as a result of Brexit, due to how that portion of the electorate voted.
All sides can be prone to make nasty comments.

Pross

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

A remarkably vindictive attitude.

I doubt he was complaining too much when the UK Government were spending the proceeds of the North Sea oil fields. He also seems to not realise that the Scottish Government will have prioritised the above and that others in Scotland will be missing out on other services. It's like complaining that the neighbouring council has better roads while ignoring that they have had all their libraries closed to pay for it as that's the priorities they chose.

mr_goo

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

A remarkably vindictive attitude.

Yes. When I see my son in debt to the tune of over £45k before he's started earning I do feel slightly vindictive, when if he'd been Scottish and educated north of border it'd been just over 50% less debt.
Glad you're happy to subsidize with your tax dollars. I'm not.

Pross

Mr Goo wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

A remarkably vindictive attitude.

Yes. When I see my son in debt to the tune of over £45k before he's started earning I do feel slightly vindictive, when if he'd been Scottish and educated north of border it'd been just over 50% less debt.
Glad you're happy to subsidize with your tax dollars. I'm not.

Surely your issue should be that the UK (English in this case) Government brought in tuition fees rather than blaming the Scots who are using their share of the countries tax income to reverse that decision up there?

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

cougie wrote:

And if Scotland leave the EU how long before they leave the Union ?

Quite soon I hope. Very much looking forward to seeing their kids paying for university education and running up huge debts like mine had to do. And don't get me started on free scripts and eyesight tests.

A remarkably vindictive attitude.

Yes. When I see my son in debt to the tune of over £45k before he's started earning I do feel slightly vindictive, when if he'd been Scottish and educated north of border it'd been just over 50% less debt.
Glad you're happy to subsidize with your tax dollars. I'm not.

Assuming it's all student loan, he doesn't need to worry about it until he starts earning above the threshold. As I say you could have moved if that was a critical issue.

ballysmate

Rolf F wrote:

And the Liar Johnson wasted no time in lying after the vote...

Liar wrote:

there be no doubt about the consequences of this vote tonight.

It means that parliament is on the brink of wrecking any deal we might be able to strike in Brussels.

Because tomorrow’s bill would hand control of the negotiations to the EU.

And that would mean more dither, more delay, more confusion.

So what deal would that be? (he has no intention of striking a deal. How can parliament be on the brink of wrecking a deal that doesn't even exist?)
What negotiations would those be? (There haven't been any negotiations).
More dither, more delay, more confusion? (How the hell can there be any more of those things? If he wants to avoid dither, delay and confusion why doesn't he just resign? He's the primary cause of all those things).

I am at a loss as to how he could have the nerve to say such things.

The deal will in all probability be the May deal. He voted for it in March. The EU has repeatedly said there is no other deal available. MPs thought they could just keep rejecting the deal and asking for and getting an extension. BJ has shown them that is no longer an option. It really is make your mind up time for them.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... clusion-he

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

And the Liar Johnson wasted no time in lying after the vote...

Liar wrote:

there be no doubt about the consequences of this vote tonight.

It means that parliament is on the brink of wrecking any deal we might be able to strike in Brussels.

Because tomorrow’s bill would hand control of the negotiations to the EU.

And that would mean more dither, more delay, more confusion.

So what deal would that be? (he has no intention of striking a deal. How can parliament be on the brink of wrecking a deal that doesn't even exist?)
What negotiations would those be? (There haven't been any negotiations).
More dither, more delay, more confusion? (How the hell can there be any more of those things? If he wants to avoid dither, delay and confusion why doesn't he just resign? He's the primary cause of all those things).

I am at a loss as to how he could have the nerve to say such things.

The deal will in all probability be the May deal. He voted for it in March. The EU has repeatedly said there is no other deal available. MPs thought they could just keep rejecting the deal and asking for and getting an extension. BJ has shown them that is no longer an option. It really is make your mind up time for them.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... clusion-he

There are plenty of deals available if the U.K. gives up a red line or two - e.g. staying in single market.