Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh
Comments
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I think it is great to see manufacturer representation in an enthusiast setting. The wheels look great value for money even with any teething problems. Good review on road.cc:Elfed wrote:Fair play to Mr Superstar for taking the time to answer these posts in a civilised and gentlemanly manner.
http://road.cc/content/review/140076-su ... 8-wheelset0 -
If you are using a 3 point guage it measures deflection not tension, note the relationship is not linear. The tables given to convert this depend on the type and material of the spoke, so without doing some tests and discussing with sapim your readings could mean anything to be honest. Thats not to say they are wrong but without knowing alot more it is not clearcut. Its like saying you should tighten a bolt to one grunts worth of effort with a black allen key.
If the tensions were out by 40% then i doubt the wheel would be either round or ridable. The machine would have rejected it even if it was half this value. The amount of tension is a personal preference based on usage and materials. yes you can crank it up supertight but that doesnt make it stiffer or stronger, infact it can bring you to the plastic deformation limit of the spoke in extreme circumstances and make the wheel weaker or fail. that is if the rim doesnt fail first!
We discuss all the parameters with the rim, spoke and wheel machinery cmopanies to have an average value. Bearing in mind we measure it in a different way to you, the numbers wont mean anything to you.
If the wheels are returned i can inspect them, otherwise anything more i say is guesswork or speculation.
Any questions please let me know, Neil0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Flasher wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Flasher wrote:But you're guessing aren't you?
No...
Proof?
Read this, highl recommended if you want to know about bicycle wheels
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Bicycle-Whe ... 0960723668
Exciting I'm sure, but where's your proof?0 -
Flasher wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Flasher wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Flasher wrote:But you're guessing aren't you?
No...
Proof?
Read this, highl recommended if you want to know about bicycle wheels
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Bicycle-Whe ... 0960723668
Exciting I'm sure, but where's your proof?
My take on that was that he was asking someone else to prove his point for him .... (whatever his point is)0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:If you are using a 3 point guage it measures deflection not tension, note the relationship is not linear. The tables given to convert this depend on the type and material of the spoke, so without doing some tests and discussing with sapim your readings could mean anything to be honest. Thats not to say they are wrong but without knowing alot more it is not clearcut. Its like saying you should tighten a bolt to one grunts worth of effort with a black allen key.
Of course. The gauge is calibrated for DT swiss spokes, in particular DT Competition, which are made of the same type of stainless steel and have the same gauge... it is then double checked for consistency against other spokes, including Sapim Race. Race give the same reading for equal tension to DT Comp, within 1-2%. You can download the calibration chart for the Pillar tension meter form their site, which has both the DT and Sapim and you will see the readings are almost identical. The Pillar gauge has exactly the same design as the DT. I have 100% confidence in those numbersSuperstarComponents.com wrote:If the tensions were out by 40% then i doubt the wheel would be either round or ridable. The machine would have rejected it even if it was half this value.
Tensions were out by roughly that much... you can build a "true" wheel with inhomogeneous tensions... it's perfectly possible and easy to do, as you should know... they are called Badly built wheels
Wrong. A wheel is only as strong and durable as the tension you load it with. You have to be careful not to exceed the rim capacity and most manufacturers suggest 125 KgF (or 1250 N) as the recommended max tension. The closer you build to that tension, the stronger and more durable the wheels will be. If you build at 600 N or 900 N the wheels are bound to last a fraction of the mileage. This is really textbook stuff and I recommend the read to you as well... Jobst Brandt: the bicycle wheel... all you need to know is thereSuperstarComponents.com wrote:The amount of tension is a personal preference based on usage and materials.
They might... there are three ways to measure tension in the industrySuperstarComponents.com wrote:Bearing in mind we measure it in a different way to you, the numbers wont mean anything to you.
1) Deflection, as above give fairly accurate readings if the gauge is calibrated
2) Acoustic, gives very accurate readings if the calibration is correct within that range
3) Torque, gives very inaccurate readings, as it depends upon too many parameters
Machines measure torque, unless you have the acoustic attachment
They were returned, as above... you did inspect them as above, I reported on the result, as above.SuperstarComponents.com wrote:If the wheels are returned i can inspect them, otherwise anything more i say is guesswork or speculation.left the forum March 20230 -
Flasher wrote:Exciting I'm sure, but where's your proof?
You can spend time in discussions on the inter web, but you will hear opinions from people you might trust or not... I am not saying believe me because I know, I am saying believe the absolute authority in the field... but you have to do some reading. If Brandt contradicts me, then I am wrong...left the forum March 20230 -
Flasher wrote:
Exciting I'm sure, but where's your proof?
It looks to me like like proof was a couple of pages back:ugo.santalucia wrote:A friend bought a pair of the 28/28 and returned them after the first ride, as he broke a spoke and two others came loose.
Any wheel that breaks the first time you use it has not surely not been tensioned properly.0 -
Where? He's using some book that may or may not back up what he said, where's Ugo's proof that the wheels will not last a thousand miles as he said they would?
This is such nonsense, as I previously said I'm sure Ugo makes nice wheels, but he's not the only one that makes wheels, he has a vested interest in this thread.0 -
holiver wrote:
I think it is great to see manufacturer representation in an enthusiast setting. The wheels look great value for money even with any teething problems. Good review on road.cc:Elfed wrote:Fair play to Mr Superstar for taking the time to answer these posts in a civilised and gentlemanly manner.
http://road.cc/content/review/140076-su ... 8-wheelset
I found the article linked here interesting. In a similar vein if you go to the bikeradar.com homepage, click on Reviews, then type Superstar into the search box you'll find some similarly positive, impartial reviews of their products0 -
Flasher wrote:Where? He's using some book that may or may not back up what he said, where's Ugo's proof that the wheels will not last a thousand miles as he said they would?
This is such nonsense, as I previously said I'm sure Ugo makes nice wheels, but he's not the only one that makes wheels, he has a vested interest in this thread.
I think he has integrity, personally. I also think that a local wheelbuilder in SW London's competition isn't really Superstar,0 -
Flasher wrote:Where? He's using some book that may or may not back up what he said, where's Ugo's proof that the wheels will not last a thousand miles as he said they would?
This is such nonsense, as I previously said I'm sure Ugo makes nice wheels, but he's not the only one that makes wheels, he has a vested interest in this thread.
1) There isn't a mathematical correlation between average spoke tension and mileage. From my experience a badly built set rarely exceeds a thousand miles without having some problem, in the same way as a very well built set rarely has a problem (barring accidents) which is related to spoke tensions before 10 K miles. In the specific case the rear wheel lasted 9 miles before having a problem, so well below the 1 K mark... but it might have been a bad spoke... except two others were loose, apparently... so maybe not
Ugo has no interest at all, firstly because I have already said I won't fix issues with those wheels for money, for beer or for free. I think it would be disrespectful towards those small businesses who can't compete with these prices and IME there is nothing to gain and everything to lose in fixing other people's bad jobs. Secondly because despite common belief spread by a handful of misinformed individuals, I very rarely accept to build wheels from folks on this or other forums, despite getting almost daily requests. I am not a business, I am a blogger and I am not equipped for deliveries and all that kind of stuff. I pretty mud always advise folks to talk to The Cycle Clinic or Strada or JRA or else... I really don't build that many wheels... and these days they are pretty much all for club riders in SW London.
Paxington is completely right: I don't have 14 K posts because I want to promote some alleged business, I do because like many on here I am a time waster... if it wasn't for a handful of time wasters with a bit of mechanical knowledge, forums like these would not exist, so you are really shooting at the Red Cross here...
Why did I get involved in this saga with Superstar? Because originally he said he can deliver the same quality of top wheel builders at a fraction of the cost and this turns out not to be the case. If he corrects that statement, I am happy to back off.
Other times we had Dave from Planet X being completely transparent about the quality of his wheels and not having any problem admitting where shortcomings were detected. I really appreciated that... did I say a word? No...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Flasher wrote:Where? He's using some book that may or may not back up what he said, where's Ugo's proof that the wheels will not last a thousand miles as he said they would?
This is such nonsense, as I previously said I'm sure Ugo makes nice wheels, but he's not the only one that makes wheels, he has a vested interest in this thread.
Paxington is completely right: I don't have 14 K posts because I want to promote some alleged business, I do because like many on here I am a time waster... if it wasn't for a handful of time wasters with a bit of mechanical knowledge, forums like these would not exist, so you are really shooting at the Red Cross here...
Other times we had Dave from Planet X being completely transparent about the quality of his wheels and not having any problem admitting where shortcomings were detected. I really appreciated that... did I say a word? No...
To correct you here I think you failed to detect the irony in my comments. That irony was clearly not wasted on Dkay. Either that or you are choosing to ignore said irony for the purposes of quoting me completely out of context (well actually you haven't quoted me, you appear to ahve put words in my mouth) I don't and didn't say anything like:
" I don't have 14 K posts because I want to promote some alleged business, I do because like many on here I am a time waster... if it wasn't for a handful of time wasters with a bit of mechanical knowledge, forums like these would not exist, so you are really shooting at the Red Cross here... "
Those were your words not mine.
I actaully agree with "Flasher" that you actually do ,potentially, have a vested interest in this thread
Secondly I seem to recall Superstar inviting you personally to the factory . How much more transparent would you like them to be?0 -
Flasher wrote:but seriously how much real world difference does it make to us lardy weekend warriors that the tensions are slightly different between spokes
It makes a huge difference and the more lardy you are the bigger the negative effects of that difference will be and the sooner they will manifest. If you are light the wheel will be less loaded and any imperfections will have less impact on durability. I am lardy and never got more than 1.5k miles from the four sets of factory built wheels I used due to incessant spoke breakages - I now only use hand builds from Harry Rowland, have never had any problems with spokes and wheels stayed true till rims wore out.
As to ugo being biased - he's more than capable of defending himself but I have greatly benefitted from his advise on here many times, and so I would offer that I think he does, of course, favour artisan skilled builders. As would I and many others, but its a very very long long time since he ever promoted himself as a business. When he very first started posting on here he did used to build to orders from forum members, but it wasn't very long at all before he said he wouldn't post wheels out to anyone and then would only build for people local to him and always recommends other builders on this forum. I got my first set of hand builds from Harry cause ugo praised Harry as a builder - even though that was way back at the very start when ugo did still build for and post out wheels to forum members.
PS What ugo describes in the relevant post were not slight differences in tension in any reasonable definition of slight!0 -
You got me... I am a secret agent working for Planet X, in fact I am wearing PX socks right now!...paxington wrote:I actaully agree with "Flasher" that you actually do ,potentially, have a vested interest in this thread
I did think about it... it's not around the corner though so it might never happen. I did appreciate that TBH and it would be interesting... still pondering that one.... it might happen... :roll:paxington wrote:Secondly I seem to recall Superstar inviting you personally to the factory . How much more transparent would you like them to be?
What do you think Neil... will it happen?
left the forum March 20230 -
I don't think this is really needed as Ugo can fight his own corner so to speak. I asked Ugo for a set of wheels over a year ago and he kindly pointed me in direction of someone who could help as he couldn't do them, so I don't think he is promoting himself only pointing out what he's found to be true.0
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ugo.santalucia wrote:
You got me... I am a secret agent working for Planet X, in fact I am wearing PX socks right now!...paxington wrote:I actaully agree with "Flasher" that you actually do ,potentially, have a vested interest in this thread
I did think about it... it's not around the corner though so it might never happen. I did appreciate that TBH and it would be interesting... still pondering that one.... it might happen... :roll:paxington wrote:Secondly I seem to recall Superstar inviting you personally to the factory . How much more transparent would you like them to be?
What do you think Neil... will it happen?
I don't think anyone suggested that Planet X employed , or would employ, you. As for wearing their socks well that's not a crime and certainly far less disconcerting than hearing that you're wearing you wife's underwear ............0 -
paxington wrote:I don't think anyone suggested that Planet X employed , or would employ, you. As for wearing their socks well that's not a crime and certainly disconcerting than hearing that you're wearing you wife's underwear ............
:roll: :?: :?:left the forum March 20230 -
.....ugo.santalucia wrote:paxington wrote:I don't think anyone suggested that Planet X employed , or would employ, you. As for wearing their socks well that's not a crime and certainly far less disconcerting than hearing that you're wearing you wife's underwear ............
:roll: :?: :?:0 -
Well heres my opinion of your list:
1) Deflection - depending on where on the spoke, the cross touch points and lots of other factors, will give different results. Thickness and the material of the spoke will also alter the reading of deflection. then you have to calculate against a known spoke of a certain tension to calibrate it.
2) Acoustic, doesnt actually measure anything but a comparison of tensions.
3) Torque, gives a linear reading based on a hugely mass produced rolled thread. If there is an issue with the thread it will be rejected by the machine. actually extremely reliable.
Note all of these do not actually measure the tension in the spoke! They all just measure a comparison which needs a conversion to tension, note this is based on the calibration of the tool.
For example you can buy 2 tension meters which measure deflection, they will both have a similar scale of deflection but can read different amounts. If you do not calibrate against a known tension then you are only measuring a comparison not a known figure. its like having a torque wrench which is badly calibrated and reads 20% below the calibrated correct torque. Sure 20Nm is on the dial but that doesnt mean its actually pulling 20Nm! Basic measurement skills, understand what the tool is saying rather than blindly believing it!
All this reminds me of a conversation i had years back in a bike shop. he said we dont build wheels any more as the old guy retired. Nobody wants to take up smoking rollup fags. i said whys that important? Well all great wheelbuilders do it in a shed full of junk and smoke rollys to help them with the voodoo arts to understand how to build a wheel.
Pop round, we dont smoke rollys and neither does our machine. plus the machine has much more accurate sight than the old guy!
Regards, Superstar0 -
wishitwasallflat wrote:It makes a huge difference and the more lardy you are the bigger the negative effects of that difference will be and the sooner they will manifest. If you are light the wheel will be less loaded and any imperfections will have less impact on durability. I am lardy and never got more than 1.5k miles from the four sets of factory built wheels I used due to incessant spoke breakages - I now only use hand builds from Harry Rowland, have never had any problems with spokes and wheels stayed true till rims wore out.
As I'm sure you know (having been through a few sets) factory wheels have a low spoke count 16/20/24, you're obviously a big guy and low spoke count wheels just aren't for you, I'm guessing Ugo and Harry R wouldn't dream of making you a wheel set with 20/24, because no matter what tension they were built to they wouldn't last.wishitwasallflat wrote:As to ugo being biased - he's more than capable of defending himself but I have greatly benefitted from his advise on here many times, and so I would offer that I think he does, of course, favour artisan skilled builders.
Indeed.0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Well heres my opinion of your list:
1) Deflection - depending on where on the spoke, the cross touch points and lots of other factors, will give different results. Thickness and the material of the spoke will also alter the reading of deflection. then you have to calculate against a known spoke of a certain tension to calibrate it.
2) Acoustic, doesnt actually measure anything but a comparison of tensions.
3) Torque, gives a linear reading based on a hugely mass produced rolled thread. If there is an issue with the thread it will be rejected by the machine. actually extremely reliable.
Note all of these do not actually measure the tension in the spoke! They all just measure a comparison which needs a conversion to tension, note this is based on the calibration of the tool.
For example you can buy 2 tension meters which measure deflection, they will both have a similar scale of deflection but can read different amounts. If you do not calibrate against a known tension then you are only measuring a comparison not a known figure. its like having a torque wrench which is badly calibrated and reads 20% below the calibrated correct torque. Sure 20Nm is on the dial but that doesnt mean its actually pulling 20Nm! Basic measurement skills, understand what the tool is saying rather than blindly believing it!
All this reminds me of a conversation i had years back in a bike shop. he said we dont build wheels any more as the old guy retired. Nobody wants to take up smoking rollup fags. i said whys that important? Well all great wheelbuilders do it in a shed full of junk and smoke rollys to help them with the voodoo arts to understand how to build a wheel.
Pop round, we dont smoke rollys and neither does our machine. plus the machine has much more accurate sight than the old guy!
Regards, Superstar
There are a few inaccuracies in your statement, but I am getting a bit tired now of going on the same topic over and over... I will only say that of course the tension meter I used is indeed calibrated against that particular spoke and of course it was used in the correct part of the spoke etc. etc... it is also possible to get very accurate absolute readings with acoustic methods, check Easton for reference (not that I endorse their wheels otherwise).
Anyway... burying the hatchet, as I pretty much ran out of things to say and I don't have anything personal against you and your business, unless there is some new development I am happy to call it a day and let people do as they wish.
I might take you up on the offer... as I said it's not around the corner.. probably a 6 hours round trip, so we'll seeleft the forum March 20230 -
I might take you up on the offer... as I said it's not around the corner.. probably a 6 hours round trip, so we'll see
That means he wants a chauffeur to drive him there.
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Ugo most camera bloggers I know (I'm in the camera industry) would bite my hand off if/ when I invite them to visit the factory...and that's in a different country!!!
Just saying'....0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Well heres my opinion of your list:
1) Deflection - depending on where on the spoke, the cross touch points and lots of other factors, will give different results. Thickness and the material of the spoke will also alter the reading of deflection. then you have to calculate against a known spoke of a certain tension to calibrate it.
2) Acoustic, doesnt actually measure anything but a comparison of tensions.
3) Torque, gives a linear reading based on a hugely mass produced rolled thread. If there is an issue with the thread it will be rejected by the machine. actually extremely reliable.
Note all of these do not actually measure the tension in the spoke! They all just measure a comparison which needs a conversion to tension, note this is based on the calibration of the tool.
For example you can buy 2 tension meters which measure deflection, they will both have a similar scale of deflection but can read different amounts. If you do not calibrate against a known tension then you are only measuring a comparison not a known figure. its like having a torque wrench which is badly calibrated and reads 20% below the calibrated correct torque. Sure 20Nm is on the dial but that doesnt mean its actually pulling 20Nm! Basic measurement skills, understand what the tool is saying rather than blindly believing it!
All this reminds me of a conversation i had years back in a bike shop. he said we dont build wheels any more as the old guy retired. Nobody wants to take up smoking rollup fags. i said whys that important? Well all great wheelbuilders do it in a shed full of junk and smoke rollys to help them with the voodoo arts to understand how to build a wheel.
Pop round, we dont smoke rollys and neither does our machine. plus the machine has much more accurate sight than the old guy!
Regards, Superstar
I think this is pretty much telling Ugo how to suck eggs.
1. I'm guessing, but I'm pretty sure that Ugo has calibrated his tension gauge correctly and took his readings from the same point on the spokes he measured.
2. Well, yes. But as long as you have a correct reference, then it's fine. I don't understand the argument.
3. Applying torque to a nut on a thread would be linear, but only up to the point where the nut starts to 'load up'. At which point, the amount of torque required to further tighten the nut rises exponentially. Also, surely variations of such things as the amount/type of lube used, different combinations of nipples and spokes and even ambient temperatures all play a part in why torque is probably not the best method to estimate tension.
I'm not a wheel builder in the slightest, but all of the above seems fairly logical to me. Feel free to shoot me down.0 -
It's an interesting debate. That said, history tells us that automated manufacturing gets the masses what they want at a price they are willing to pay - even if (and that's by no means given) you have to sacrifice a little quality. Nobody bothers about "running in" a car these days because modern manufacturing techniques mean you don't need to bother. For some reason we hold wheel assembly in some sort of reverence. I suspect it's partly to do with being able to get a custom build. But I'm sure much of it is to do with the inherent conservatism related to cycling (road cycling in particular) which, for example, has people defending rim brakes in the face if overwhelming evidence that discs are superior. I'm glad that there are custom builders but I don't believe that they should be competing on the same ground as the automated manufacturing guys.
I'll declare my bias that I'm a manufacturing guy - but then I've been responsible for processes that produce nearly 5 billion components a year to tolerances of microns that have the real potential to kill or seriously harm users if they are wrong. From that perspective, hand-made makes me think of the Stone Age. Hand made should be about custom build or custom fit - whether that's an unusual wheel configuration or a tailored suit. Automation has the power to do things repetitively at incredibly high degrees of repeatability and precision. People have the ability to adapt and be creative - there's plenty of space for both.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
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While I don't build wheels, I do string tennis rackets which is similar and therefore, do understand how a product is only as good as the person doing the job. A string job done by a skilled person, using basic flying clamps, a budget nylon string and a £150 two-point, drop-weight stringing machine will perform far better than a string job done by an unknowledgeable person, stringing an expensive multi-filament string, but employing bad practices on a £7000 Babolat Sensor electronic machine.
Using the best equipment and selecting the best components doesn't add up to much if you lack the skills to put it all together to make a good working product.
To date, nobody has managed to make an automated machine which can string-up a racket, as it's too complicated. Call me a romanticist, but I kinda like that.0 -
DKay wrote:To date, nobody has managed to make an automated machine which can string-up a racket, as it's too complicated. Call me a romanticist, but I kinda like that.
I used to visit the GE facility in Caerphilly where they do overhaul and service of Jet engines. The most delicate job is the reassembly of the turbo fan, which is a large structure of titanium or composite. It runs with sub mm tolerances and needs to be perfectly balanced to rev at several thousand RPM. The forces it generates are enormous. Weights are positioned to optimise the balance of a structure which is already built to perfection and whilst a computer calculates the best configuration of the weights, the final decision of where they go is left to a guy sitting on top of the assembly, as the computer can only go thus far, apparently. It's one of those stories they like to tell visitors as it sounds a bit funny and romantic, but it did make perfect sense to me.left the forum March 20230 -
DKay wrote:To date, nobody has managed to make an automated machine which can string-up a racket, as it's too complicated. Call me a romanticist, but I kinda like that.
The technology for developing and building such a machine exists for sure but the cost of making one that can deal with different sizes of rackets, different frame materials, string types and different patterns will drive the cost of the rackets up making the whole thing irrelevant. Fortunately there are still enough people who play tennis and enough people skilled enough to string good rackets 0
