Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh

DKay

Interesting stuff. Thanks for taking the time to do the write up. I'm gonna get mine checked before I ride them now.

adam0bmx0

I went out on my set of 20/24 spoked rims today and no issues, hit a few potholes etc and all seems well.

If you want to test the tension on my wheelset let me know and I can pop over on a weekend, for research purposes.

ugo.santalucia

adam0bmx0 wrote:

I went out on my set of 20/24 spoked rims today and no issues, hit a few potholes etc and all seems well.

If you want to test the tension on my wheelset let me know and I can pop over on a weekend, for research purposes.

I was curious to confirm some stories I heard from other builders, he is a friend, so I accepted, but otherwise I will not touch them as I know others no longer do.

DKay

Don't suppose anybody knows a decent wheel-builder in the North East who'd be willing to check and adjust tensions on a set of wheels?

paxington

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Right...

The first thing I noticed is that I expected Sapim Laser, while in fact the 28/28 are built with Sapim Race.... fair enough and a good idea for a training set, but of course the weight jumps to 1700 or so.

I noticed this on their website before buying so it was exactly what I expected. It was part of the research I did before buying them. That and getting some unbiased opinions that is.
So far (1200K) they've coped with my 90KG and some rough West Country roads admirably. I'm quite discerning in who's feedback I value. Tending to believe my eyes and actual experience above all else, closely followed by objective feed back from people, whom I trust , in a position to give a totally unbiased view.
So far so good. As for how they'll shape up over time , well I' ve an open mind on that one.

ugo.santalucia

paxington wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Right...

The first thing I noticed is that I expected Sapim Laser, while in fact the 28/28 are built with Sapim Race.... fair enough and a good idea for a training set, but of course the weight jumps to 1700 or so.

I noticed this on their website before buying so it was exactly what I expected. It was part of the research I did before buying them. That and getting some unbiased opinions that is.
So far (1200K) they've coped with my 90KG and some rough West Country roads admirably. I'm quite discerning in who's feedback I value. Tending to believe my eyes and actual experience above all else, closely followed by objective feed back from people, whom I trust , in a position to give a totally unbiased view.
So far so good. As for how they'll shape up over time , well I' ve an open mind on that one.

I can only describe what I see. That was a set with a problem, as it failed on the first ride and was returned in the hope to get a new one, instead it was repaired... the "repair" was sub standard in my view and the front wheel that was not repaired was sub-standard too. It is entirely possible that yours are better, although inconsistent quality goes against the logic for automation

rozzer32

I emailed them regarding a disc wheelset. They told me they used sapim laser spokes to keep the weight down and strength up in the wheels. Sapim say not to use laser spokes for disc builds. So make of that what you will.

paxington

ugo.santalucia wrote:

paxington wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Right...

The first thing I noticed is that I expected Sapim Laser, while in fact the 28/28 are built with Sapim Race.... fair enough and a good idea for a training set, but of course the weight jumps to 1700 or so.

I noticed this on their website before buying so it was exactly what I expected. It was part of the research I did before buying them. That and getting some unbiased opinions that is.
So far (1200K) they've coped with my 90KG and some rough West Country roads admirably. I'm quite discerning in who's feedback I value. Tending to believe my eyes and actual experience above all else, closely followed by objective feed back from people, whom I trust , in a position to give a totally unbiased view.
So far so good. As for how they'll shape up over time , well I' ve an open mind on that one.

I can only describe what I see. That was a set with a problem, as it failed on the first ride and was returned in the hope to get a new one, instead it was repaired... the "repair" was sub standard in my view and the front wheel that was not repaired was sub-standard too. It is entirely possible that yours are better, although inconsistent quality goes against the logic for automation

Well if your observations are both accurate and indicative I'm sure that, in time, this thread will be awash with similar such feedback as people are rarely shy about complaining when they're unhappy after spending their OWN hard earned cash. I take it your friend doesn't use this forum himself.
I'm not on the way to my LBS (who are superb BTW) just yet.

ugo.santalucia

rozzer32 wrote:

I emailed them regarding a disc wheelset. They told me they used sapim laser spokes to keep the weight down and strength up in the wheels. Sapim say not to use laser spokes for disc builds. So make of that what you will.

Laser spokes for 26 inch disc builds are fine as they are inherently stiffer wheels. For 29 inch wheels they can still be used, but it wouldn't be my first choice of spoke.

MisterMuncher

Food for thought as ever, Ugo. Mine seem perfectly fine, and acoustically the tension is very even. The local wheel guy thought they were well up till snuff, although this is mtb country in a big way. They're certainly truer out of the box than the last factory wheels I bought.

I'll be keeping a tighter eye on them anyway.

holiver

Valuable feedback Ugo, thank you.

londoncommuter

holiver wrote:

Valuable feedback Ugo, thank you.

Slightly depressing though, you could have broken it a bit more gently for us (any chance of a free inspection to make up for it.....).

paxington

londoncommuter wrote:

holiver wrote:

Valuable feedback Ugo, thank you.

Slightly depressing though, you could have broken it a bit more gently for us (any chance of a free inspection to make up for it.....).

I think you're being a little unfair to expect the man to check your wheels for free just to give you piece of mind.
Though I do see your point as the irony of paying to have piece of mind restored by the someone who's invested so much time in engendering doubt isn't lost on me either.

Luckily he's far too principled to profit from such doubt :

"UgoSantalucia wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I will not touch them

I personally believe very firmly in the age old idiom "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

My wheels show no signs of breaking any time soon....

DKay

paxington wrote:

I think you're being a little unfair to expect the man to check your wheels for free just to give you piece of mind.
Though I do see your point as the irony of paying to have piece of mind restored by the someone who's invested so much time in engendering doubt isn't lost on me either.

Luckily he's far too principled to profit from such doubt :

I personally believe very firmly in the age old idiom "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

It's not just Ugo who has mentioned sub-standard build quality of the SS Pacenti wheels, so please stop having a cheap pop. Ugo can appear quite direct and brusque, but personally, I'm thankful for his insight.

Another good idiom; 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'. I personally don't see any harm in getting my wheels checked-out for the cost of few quid, especially as the wheels were such amazing value in the first place. They may be spot-on, they may be all over the shop. But going of the experiences of some people on this thread, I'll be taking the wise option, if only for the peace of mind.

paxington

DKay wrote:

paxington wrote:

I think you're being a little unfair to expect the man to check your wheels for free just to give you piece of mind.
Though I do see your point as the irony of paying to have piece of mind restored by the someone who's invested so much time in engendering doubt isn't lost on me either.

Luckily he's far too principled to profit from such doubt :

I personally believe very firmly in the age old idiom "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

It's not just Ugo who has mentioned sub-standard build quality of the SS Pacenti wheels, so please stop having a cheap pop. Ugo can appear quite direct and brusque, but personally, I'm thankful for his insight.

Another good idiom; 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'. I personally don't see any harm in getting my wheels checked-out for the cost of few quid, especially as the wheels were such amazing value in the first place. They may be spot-on, they may be all over the shop. But going of the experiences of some people on this thread, I'll be taking the wise option, if only for the peace of mind.

Well we each have our own perspective which has to be a good thing . I started from a position of having an open mind and my confidence has grown through use of the wheels, so I guess others doubts impact me less(read not at all) .You clearly prefer a more cautious approach and that's clearly for you to decide. And as for the value for money I couldn't agree more.

meanredspider

Let's be honest, whilst I value Ugo's input on wheels a lot, I can't see it being unbiased on this particular topic. With both the apparent excellent pricing of these particular wheels and Ugo's exchanges with Mr Superstars.com, even the most objective people will struggle to maintain that objective perspective.

Personally, with the price and the 2 year warranty, I'm very relaxed. After all, these aren't from unknown shed in South China (from where people are happy to buy lights, batteries and chargers) but assembled in Europe by a known and seemingly successful British company who made their name from disc brake pads. Works for me.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

Let's be honest, whilst I value Ugo's input on wheels a lot, I can't see it being unbiased on this particular topic. With both the apparent excellent pricing of these particular wheels and Ugo's exchanges with Mr Superstars.com, even the most objective people will struggle to maintain that objective perspective.

Personally, with the price and the 2 year warranty, I'm very relaxed. After all, these aren't from unknown shed in South China (from where people are happy to buy lights, batteries and chargers) but assembled in Europe by a known and seemingly successful British company who made their name from disc brake pads. Works for me.

BIas is part of human nature... you've had the same two parties alternating in government for a century, is that not bias? You will struggle to find someone who has knowledge on a topic but no bias and there is a lot of bias even among those with no knowledge. That said, if you find him, show him the numbers I posted... numbers have no bias... see what he thinks...

Warranty: the set pictured above was returned under warranty and repaired under warranty... I only saw it afterwards, not before. Based on those numbers, it would not have failed within the first 10 miles as it did in first instance, but it would within the first thousand. The problem with the warranty is that you don't get a brand new set well built to replace the faulty one (or maybe you do with Mavic)... you get a repair, which in my biased opinion was sub standard. You can play the ping pong game with the courier for 2 years if that's what you like to do. Is that piece of mind?

I recently wrote a piece on my blog about warranty and stuff... VERY biased, of course...

EDIT: I finally tried the Superstar pads everyone rave about: they are indeed as good as any out there and they are even thicker than most ,meaning you get more pad for less money... 5 star...

SuperstarComponents.com

Hello just for your information, we had about 500 pairs of these wheels to clear and they are down to the last few now. So if we got a couple of people with problems thats statistically tiny, and as has been said before we solve any problems people have once we have been made aware. im surprised by these claims of build problems, and suspect its more likely to be transport damage than build issues. Its a problem with mail order that the odd thing gets dropped or squished in delivery, but as said before we sort it for you.

As for spoke lubrication, the alloy ones are teflon coated and therefore self lubricating. The are also soaked for 24 hours in light oil (Sapims reccomendation) prior to being put in the lacer so every nipple will be lubricatied in the build process. Obviously they wont be dripping with oil, so you cant see it but it doesnt mean its not there. So thats another storm in a teacup solved.

As for the tightness of the rims, best to ask Pacenti about their tyre reccomendations. Yes they are supposed to be tight for tubeless, ive had tyres on my personal set on with thumbs only so im surprised to hear some of the comments.

Any questions please let me know, Superstar

ugo.santalucia

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

Hello just for your information, we had about 500 pairs of these wheels to clear and they are down to the last few now. So if we got a couple of people with problems thats statistically tiny, and as has been said before we solve any problems people have once we have been made aware. im surprised by these claims of build problems, and suspect its more likely to be transport damage than build issues. Its a problem with mail order that the odd thing gets dropped or squished in delivery, but as said before we sort it for you.

How about tension? Is tension dropping during the transport? Are you saying that a wheel not out of true is to be blamed to the courier despite you taking all precautions and using wheels specific boxes with slots for them not to move inside? Could it be that your machine that checks these tensions is not set up properly? Wouldn't it be a good thing to call the engineers at Hollands and have a chat with them? I am sure the robots come with support and I am confident they can do a good job if set up correctly. Do you have the acoustic attachment or only measure tension by torque? If you do have it, is it calibrated properly?

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

As for spoke lubrication, the alloy ones are teflon coated and therefore self lubricating. The are also soaked for 24 hours in light oil (Sapims reccomendation) prior to being put in the lacer so every nipple will be lubricatied in the build process. Obviously they wont be dripping with oil, so you cant see it but it doesnt mean its not there. So thats another storm in a teacup solved.

The friction was extremely high as a sign of total lack of lubrication of the threads, sorry. These were brass niples... they must have leaked oil during the transport though...

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

As for the tightness of the rims, best to ask Pacenti about their tyre reccomendations. Yes they are supposed to be tight for tubeless, ive had tyres on my personal set on with thumbs only so im surprised to hear some of the comments.

I am surprised you are surprised, the web is full of people going on about the issue. I guess it comes down to which tyres are used and how proficient the user is in fitting a tyre on a tubeless rim, which is normally a bit tighter than a non tubeless rim...

SuperstarComponents.com

Hello again Ugo, you seem to be an expert on our manufacturing practice for some reason? I cant remember ever showing you round our factory... We do QC and other manual checks and the wheels are coming out to specification when we build them. You have personally looked at how many of our wheels to decree our machinery has issues?

The nipples are indeed lubricated, just because its not immediately visable to you doesnt mean its not there.

Personally as i look at the majority of returned wheels which are reported as "massively out" they arent, or alternatively they have been damaged in transit. As we all know you can write anything you like on the internet with nothing to back it up, and i know for a fact alot of people who post negative comments about us havent even used our products.

We build many thouands of wheels a year, our return rate is extremely low. If it wasnt we would have gone bankrupt years ago dont you think?

Ill stick with talking about facts rather than presuming things and pretending they are facts.

Any questions please let me know, Superstar

ugo.santalucia

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

You have personally looked at how many of our wheels to decree our machinery has issues?

Only two as part of a set, read the comment above if you have time.... are you happy with those tensions I reported? Are they typical of your sets or they are a QC issue in your opinion? They are measured with a calibrated tension gauge... the best on the market as far as I know. If there is a better one, I'll buy it

flasher

Shame that I don't need any wheels at present, as I'm sure that I would have bought some of these as they are amazing value, I certainly wouldn't be concerned as they come with a 2 year warranty, crash replacement discount scheme and a lifetime free truing service, how can you go wrong?

I'm sure that Ugo makes lovely handbuilts that are QC'd to within an inch of their lives, but seriously how much real world difference does it make to us lardy weekend warriors that the tensions are slightly different between spokes, it's bike wheels we're talking about here not the space shuttle.

ugo.santalucia

Flasher wrote:

but seriously how much real world difference does it make to us lardy weekend warriors that the tensions are slightly different between spokes

The difference between spokes lasting less than a thousand miles or over ten thousand miles... enough difference?

flasher

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Flasher wrote:

but seriously how much real world difference does it make to us lardy weekend warriors that the tensions are slightly different between spokes

The difference between spokes lasting less than a thousand miles or over ten thousand miles... enough difference?

But you're guessing aren't you?

SuperstarComponents.com

Depends how your measureing them and if your gauge is calibrated. No rim is actually perfectly round, plus the weld area has a slightly different stiffness/roundness. Therefore there will always be a variation in the tension, which is perfectly normal. I get worried when people start quoting straightnesses or tensions which a CNC machine would struggle to machine to for example. Just becasue a guage says something is 0.000 straight doesnt mean its built correctly. Its all a bit pointless in the real world when your tyre has huge tolerances in comparison.

1 pair of wheels is hardly a statistical group, so i will stick with my opinion based on what i see over thousands of wheels. Your free to have your own opinion, but lets not make it presumptious or inflamatory please and stick to facts. Your always welcome to come over and see how we build.

Personally i would rely on lasers (accurate to microns) and direct drive servos which calibrate themselves every time they start up to be as accurate as physically possible.

As for spokes breaking a few miles in, that sounds like a faulty spoke which we would replace under warranty free of charge. If its a fatigue issue we chop them all out and rebuild with new spokes, just like our crash rebuild where we give you a full set of new spokes and nipples for free so we are sure there are no issues with the used ones.

Any questions please let me know, Superstar

Elfed

Fair play to Mr Superstar for taking the time to answer these posts in a civilised and gentlemanly manner.

ugo.santalucia

Flasher wrote:

But you're guessing aren't you?

No...

flasher

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Flasher wrote:

But you're guessing aren't you?

No...

Proof?

ugo.santalucia

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

Depends how your measureing them and if your gauge is calibrated. No rim is actually perfectly round, plus the weld area has a slightly different stiffness/roundness. Therefore there will always be a variation in the tension, which is perfectly normal.

What do you mean depends how you measrue it? It's a three point bending gauge... like all tension gauges. The gauge is calibrated as I have already said 2-3 times.

I have a breakdown of the spokes tensions I can check it, but I am fairly sure the tension variations have nothing to do wit the joining area opposite to the valve.
Variations of + or - 30-40% are not to be attributed to rim defects. Pacenti rims are pretty much defect free anyway.
You did not comment about the tension being too low: 600 N front and 900 N rear drive side is on the low side, which implies they won;t be durable (for reference one could read Jobst Brandt)

ugo.santalucia

Flasher wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Flasher wrote:

But you're guessing aren't you?

No...

Proof?

Read this, highl recommended if you want to know about bicycle wheels

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Bicycle-Whe ... 0960723668