Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh
Comments
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Here's my opinion as a manufacturer (not bikes related but we have resellers, end users, warranty etc. etc.)
If the wheels in question were/ are covered by the 2 yr warranty, they should have gone back for inspection/ repair/ replacement, as many times as the T&Cs of the warranty permit. Some manufacturers also offer a DOA service where a defective product is replaced with a new one once sufficient proof of the defect has been provided. If there is a reseller involved then they can often handle the communication with the manufacturer better than the end users and may also provide a temporary solution during the investigation/ repair.
In most cases, if an unauthorised 3rd party (i.e. not a reseller or a certified technician) attempts a repair which does not fall into the "user maintainable" bracket, the warranty is void.
It is then under the manufacturer's discretion to offer a repair or a replacement, either for a charge or for a fee, as high or as low as they see fit. In certain scenarios it can also end in a full or partial refund.
And then there are geographically based consumer- vendor laws that can be in play...
I think that SSC have done a good job coming online and talking openly (within reason). They've also invited Ugo to visit them and as a blogger he should be jumping on this opportunity as it may well also lead to a happy end...
Maybe we can all put in a quid each for the train ticket???0 -
yaya wrote:Maybe we can all put in a quid each for the train ticket???
Maybe VTech could drive ugo there in one of his super cars?0 -
yaya wrote:Here's my opinion as a manufacturer (not bikes related but we have resellers, end users, warranty etc. etc.)
If the wheels in question were/ are covered by the 2 yr warranty, they should have gone back for inspection/ repair/ replacement, as many times as the T&Cs of the warranty permit. Some manufacturers also offer a DOA service where a defective product is replaced with a new one once sufficient proof of the defect has been provided. If there is a reseller involved then they can often handle the communication with the manufacturer better than the end users and may also provide a temporary solution during the investigation/ repair.
In most cases, if an unauthorised 3rd party (i.e. not a reseller or a certified technician) attempts a repair which does not fall into the "user maintainable" bracket, the warranty is void.
It is then under the manufacturer's discretion to offer a repair or a replacement, either for a charge or for a fee, as high or as low as they see fit. In certain scenarios it can also end in a full or partial refund.
And then there are geographically based consumer- vendor laws that can be in play...
I think that SSC have done a good job coming online and talking openly (within reason). They've also invited Ugo to visit them and as a blogger he should be jumping on this opportunity as it may well also lead to a happy end...
Maybe we can all put in a quid each for the train ticket???
I'm in the service sector. Hand on heart no matter how much you were in the right or felt provoked would you ever call someone a liar on a public forum under the name of your business?
I'm in for the whip round by the way. Can we get #getUgotoLincoln trending until it happens
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SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Ugo seems very quick to criticise our building method as he prefers handbuilds, being as that is what he sells (as several people have emailed me to confirm...)
Pretty sure that wasn't a secret mate. Not sure you've found the smoking gun here.0 -
Irohug5 wrote:yaya wrote:Here's my opinion as a manufacturer (not bikes related but we have resellers, end users, warranty etc. etc.)
If the wheels in question were/ are covered by the 2 yr warranty, they should have gone back for inspection/ repair/ replacement, as many times as the T&Cs of the warranty permit. Some manufacturers also offer a DOA service where a defective product is replaced with a new one once sufficient proof of the defect has been provided. If there is a reseller involved then they can often handle the communication with the manufacturer better than the end users and may also provide a temporary solution during the investigation/ repair.
In most cases, if an unauthorised 3rd party (i.e. not a reseller or a certified technician) attempts a repair which does not fall into the "user maintainable" bracket, the warranty is void.
It is then under the manufacturer's discretion to offer a repair or a replacement, either for a charge or for a fee, as high or as low as they see fit. In certain scenarios it can also end in a full or partial refund.
And then there are geographically based consumer- vendor laws that can be in play...
I think that SSC have done a good job coming online and talking openly (within reason). They've also invited Ugo to visit them and as a blogger he should be jumping on this opportunity as it may well also lead to a happy end...
Maybe we can all put in a quid each for the train ticket???
I'm in the service sector. Hand on heart no matter how much you were in the right or felt provoked would you ever call someone a liar on a public forum under the name of your business?
Been there, done that and got burnt a few times...yes the customer is always right and all that but it really depends on the community and whether or not you gain enough respect as the manufacturer rep to be able to pull it off...0 -
Agreed but I would argue they haven't earned that respect yet0
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I don't see how expressing doubt over a claim is calling anyone a liar. I see it as providing an opportunity for the other party to provide details so that a claim then becomes a fact. Insurance claims require no less.
I've been aware of the existence of Superstar, Ugo and these wheels all for pretty much the same length of time. I've read this thread from page 1, I have a set of these wheels and to date am firmly in the Superstar Camp.
I don't have any opinion about whether handbuilt trumps factory or vice versa.
This is all a crying shame really as the guy who started this thread appears tp have done so altruistically ie to share he saw as a bargain with other enthusiasts .
Anyone with a mind to could go back and read the very second post on this entire thread and decide for themslves whether that in anyway constitutes honesty, altruism or integrity.........0 -
How Accusing Someone of Lying Works - A Guide
Someone claims something. Someone else says that this is not the case or that they doubt it happened.0 -
To be fair to SS they were doing themselves a favour up until that chap dropped a b0110ck.
Refreshing to see until then.0 -
Bondurant wrote:How Accusing Someone of Lying Works - A Guide
Someone claims something. Someone else says that this is not the case or that they doubt it happened.
This.
He clearly implied Ugo was lying. All I'm saying is most companies would have a bit more humility and accept that in this case maybe something has gone wrong etc etc and be shown to be keen to resolve. As I'm sure 99% of the wheels are solid. I happen to have a wheel that is clearly out of true and so has obviously slipped through the QC. I'm not making a big deal out of it these things can happen. But I suppose I could be called a liar next judging by the fact he hasn't seen mine either.0 -
No, I'd call them a liar.
Is that the answer you were after?0 -
paxington wrote:Bondurant wrote:How Accusing Someone of Lying Works - A Guide
Someone claims something. Someone else says that this is not the case or that they doubt it happened.
If a stranger bought a frame off of you and claimed it arrived broken would you simply take their word for it ?
If I was a large business I would ask for more info sure but I still wouldn't call them a liar in a public forum.0 -
Bondurant wrote:No, I'd call them a liar.
Is that the answer you were after?
I was not after one answer or another... I was after encouraging you to think it through. You clearly jumped a step and ruled out the possibility of the courier damaging it.
Personally I ask for photo's and to speak to them on the phone if I was the seller. If I was the buyer I'd give the seller a thorough chance to show good faith before I attacked him on a public forum. I wouldn't allow a third party to do that for me.0 -
I must confess I spent little or no time thinking about your scenario, mainly because it's imaginary.
What did happen, without being melodramatic, is that SS accused Ugo of being a liar. Don't want to labour the point too much, but they did. That was the point I was trying to make. I think SS let themselves down by doing so, unnecessarily.
Was it justified? I have my own opinion on that. I just think it was a dumb thing to do.0 -
Bondurant wrote:I must confess I spent little or no time thinking about your scenario, mainly because it's imaginary.
What did happen, without being melodramatic, is that SS accused Ugo of being a liar. Don't want to labour the point too much, but they did. That was the point I was trying to make. I think SS let themselves down by doing so, unnecessarily.
Was it justified? I have my own opinion on that. I just think it was a dumb thing to do.
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This post just keeps on giving....
Surprised it hasn't been locked by the über mod.0 -
Not sure why it should be locked to be honest. This is an open, public forum where people should be free to debate issues which relate to the central overall forum topic. i.e. cycling. Although certain individuals, who are prolific posters on this very thread, seem to think that this should not the case, yet they then contradict themselves by continually debating!
If you post on a public forum, then you should be prepared for your opinions, thoughts and findings to be cross-examined, for better or for worse.0 -
Bondurant wrote:I must confess I spent little or no time thinking about your scenario, mainly because it's imaginary.
What did happen, without being melodramatic, is that SS accused Ugo of being a liar. Don't want to labour the point too much, but they did. That was the point I was trying to make. I think SS let themselves down by doing so, unnecessarily.
Was it justified? I have my own opinion on that. I just think it was a dumb thing to do.
Well if he did, and clearly our opinions differ on that point, he didn't get to that point as quickly as you just demonstrated people can do.
I'm more concerned about people being fair than I am about whether wheel A is better than wheel B. I don't think it's fair that a legitimate business should have to defend their product publicly against what has been said by a third party about an unidentifiable order. You or I or anyone else don't know anything about the circumstance of that spoke failure. Was the Rider 110KG or 54KG? Did he hot a massive pothole ? Was he injured ?
If a company has to defend themselves or their product surely it's only fair that they can identify an order number and thereby a production run...
That might allow them to check and recall other wheels in the same run if deemed necessary. Surely noting that wheels from a certain batch might likely to fail but refusing to help identify said batch is irresponsible. At the very least providing the order number would help SS to determine more accurately whether that was a one-off or not. After all why not provide the order number if doing so might prevent similar failures or even injuries ? (not on the forum but at least to SS for their benefit)
The exact circumstance of the failure is surely relevant and it's fair that it be provided to the manufacturer and provided by the owner/user of that set of wheels.0 -
I'm glad my words are being twisted again, to try and inflame with no basis. Let's be clear I have not said he is a liar
What I have done is list a set of valid reasons why the claims made may not be true. Until both sides of the discussion have actually seen the reported problem it's impossible to verify the truth. I'm waiting to be allowed to see and test the "fault". Until then I can't comment on actually what the cause is.
I'm still waiting for the required build tensions for that wheelbuilding from the expert. He seems very good at avoiding actual facts.
Regards, superstar0 -
Hi Superstar,
I've seen this kid of thing before on other forums (often hifi) and it usually ends up as a rather ugly argument. I would suggest that as a manufacturer, it is far better not to get involved and maintain a dignified silence. That way, you keep the high ground. In fact, I would stay away from forums altogether like most other manufacturers do. Nothing positive usually comes of manufacturers posting on forums IMO.0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:I'm glad my words are being twisted again, to try and inflame with no basis. Let's be clear I have not said he is a liar
As I said, no hard feelings on this side.
I think we have passed the point where a civilised discussion is possible and I don't think WE are any longer interested in each other's point of view, as we seem to talk two different languages. As I said, from now on it would only be bitterness which might be entertaining for some, but it's rather pointless otherwise. IF we manage to learn to communicate in the future, I might be interested in taking you up on your kind offer to visit the production line... right now it would be a waste of time (and money!)...
There is no reason to lock the thread, which will remain and will stay open for updatesleft the forum March 20230 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Let's be clear I have not said he is a liar
What I have done is list a set of valid reasons why the claims made may not be true.
Does the second line not amount to the same thing, as others have said I would be concerned buying wheels from a company with such disdain. If I had a problem with my wheels would you not be claiming that I was a liar and that it must have been something that I had done as the super robot line can never make a duff wheel.0 -
robbo2011 wrote:Hi Superstar,
I've seen this kid of thing before on other forums (often hifi) and it usually ends up as a rather ugly argument. I would suggest that as a manufacturer, it is far better not to get involved and maintain a dignified silence. That way, you keep the high ground. In fact, I would stay away from forums altogether like most other manufacturers do. Nothing positive usually comes of manufacturers posting on forums IMO.
I'm afraid this is probably the case. I take my hat off to Superstar for taking the time to post replies but sadly sometimes all that does is give a platform and credence to folk who frankly don't deserve it.
Anyone can write any crap on the inter-web with far lower levels of accountability than they would be held to in the real world. Forums are still very useful resources, the trick is sorting the wheat from the chaff ...0 -
The problem is that can never happen as the wheel has been repaired so there is a catch 22 and it cannot be proven either way now. As soon as someone else worked on that wheel it ceased to be the wheel you sent out as things have changed. This debate cannot move on as you say one thing and Ugo says another. He is quoting figures he measured and you dispute, unless he filmed himself doing this we are just going round in circles. Even if he did film the process, which would be ridiculous, you will continue to claim it's an inaccurate way of measuring tension so we are still not getting anywhere.SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Until both sides of the discussion have actually seen the reported problem it's impossible to verify the truth. I'm waiting to be allowed to see and test the "fault". Until then I can't comment on actually what the cause is.
I have bought from Superstar and will do so again and will recommend you to others. Some of your products are very good and at a good price. Likewise I have dealt with Ugo and will undoubtedly do so again.0 -
DKay wrote:Just to add, I'm getting my Superstar SL23 and C46 carbon clinchers checked out this weekend by an independent bike shop, not to witch hunt, but for my own peace of mind.
Watch this space...
Would be genuinely interested in the results from this as I have a set of c46 which I have just received. Front seems a little off to me and spokes feel loose in comparison to other wheelsets I have so may well join you in getting them checked. More for piece of mind than anything else as I don't claim to have an knowledge at all of wheel building and it is my first set with a low spoke count. Still seem like a bargain at the price I paid even if I have to slip my LBS £30 to sort out anything0 -
Veronese68 wrote:Likewise I have dealt with Ugo and will undoubtedly do so again.
Don't think so...
You have learnt to build your own wheels and having seen them and checked them I am confident they will last just as long as anything I would build.
From now on our dealings will be in the form of you seeing me ass disappearing in the distance up a slope... 8)left the forum March 20230 -
rudivoller22 wrote:spokes feel loose in comparison to other wheelsets I have
Laser spokes: just like guitar strings, for equal amount of load (tension) a smaller gauge spoke will feel more tense if you squeeze it. it's one of these things I have noticed and if you have played a string instrument I am sure you have noticed it too... If you load 1000 N on a Sapim Laser and the same amount on a Sapim strong, the latter will "feel" less tense. That's why you need a calibrated instrument to measure tensions and not fingers.
So, if you have Sapim Laser and they don't feel very tense compared to others, that is certainly a clue that they are not, as they are pretty much the smallest gauge spokes on the marketleft the forum March 20230
