Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh
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Sure thats your opinion being the forums cynic Ugo, but to us we stand by our warranty and offer much much more than every other brand out there.
Who offers free truing for life? Who offers to rebuild a crashed or worn rim with new spokes and nipples for the cost of the rim alone, yes that 24 sapim laser spokes, 24 sapim alloy nipples, a new pave rim, build and return postage for £30???
Sure if you choose to go elsewhere thats your choice, im not going to force you.
PS the carbon wheels are all handbuilt as internal nipples dont work very well in the machine on deep section... now your going to tell me handbuilds are crap yes....
Please stop inventing problems which dont exist via the internet of rumors
Any questions please let me know, Neil0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:now your going to tell me handbuilds are crap yes...
According to the findings on this thread yours are. Machine or human is irrelevant, it is down to whether or not you know how to build them properly or to set up the machine to do so.
It doesn't take a private detective to find out that is by far NOT the first thread on the web where this problem is discussed. You want to ignore it and plow on with the line "we are the best, we offer this and that"? It's your call, it's part of the entertainment.
PS: no point in answering to me, as this time is DKay's bike mechanic you have to discredit, I am the one with the popcorn...
left the forum March 20230 -
The only reason for mentioning ENVE was that SSC said their wheels are built with the same machine and are therefore built as well. Ugo asked ENVE about this and they said the only way to build properly is to finish by hand. The point that many have had is that whilst these are good value they aren't as well constructed as a wheel built by someone who knows what they are doing.lemuppet wrote:stevie63 wrote:No I refuse to believe what you are saying, a robot is better everytime, it is fact. (the 7 people on here so far with undertensioned wheels must all be dreaming, and the fact that ENVE choose to hand finish their wheels after a robot builds them doesn't mean anything)
Wow, £150 wheels not quite as well put together as £1800 ones, now there's a shock!0 -
DKay wrote:Got both sets of my wheels back today after them being fettled. The general impression, was that all of the wheels had low average tensions, with the SL23 front being particularly low, requiring anything up to a full turn to get up to the rims recommended tension. The spoke tensions on the SL23s were actually more even than the carbon clinchers, which apparently showed excessive variance.
I'm glad I've had them checked-out and tweaked, as I'm sure they'll last longer and perform better now. Looking forward to getting out on them as soon as the weather gets a bit better.
Be aware tension needs to be spot on with SL23 as i have had a 32 hole rim crack on DS around the eyelets prolly caused by over tensioned in the original build by a very well established wheelbuilder in Sheffield .0 -
stevie63 wrote:
The only reason for mentioning ENVE was that SSC said their wheels are built with the same machine and are therefore built as well. Ugo asked ENVE about this and they said the only way to build properly is to finish by hand. The point that many have had is that whilst these are good value they aren't as well constructed as a wheel built by someone who knows what they are doing.lemuppet wrote:stevie63 wrote:No I refuse to believe what you are saying, a robot is better everytime, it is fact. (the 7 people on here so far with undertensioned wheels must all be dreaming, and the fact that ENVE choose to hand finish their wheels after a robot builds them doesn't mean anything)
Wow, £150 wheels not quite as well put together as £1800 ones, now there's a shock!
This is the email I got from ENVE, basically they only machine lace the wheelsThank you for the inquiry. We do have a machine which assists our wheel building staff with lacing the wheel, and this machine is overseen by an employee. The employee threads the spokes into the hubs, determines the lacing pattern, and guides the robot. The robot assists with attaching the nipples and adding the first round of tension. This can be the most time consuming part of the process, and we brought the machine to help increase efficiency in the build process, while still allowing ENVE to control the quality. After the lacing process is complete, the wheels are hand tensioned an trued by our staff. The large point to note in the process of pursuing this type of machine is that the hand finishing is the most important part of the build process. In a hand finished wheel we can measure tension and can properly true the wheel. Machines which build a wheel completely measure torque. Please let me know if there is anything else we can help with!
Warm regards,
Alison Reitterleft the forum March 20230 -
Hello again we have had no reports from the customer that there is an issue and the customer is saying here he is cranking up the radial tension on the front wheels against Ugos (and my agreeing) advice back in this discussion.
Please stop trying to whip up a storm in a teacup Ugo.
As i said before It appears Campagnolo/Fulcrum use a machine after they hand true them.... so who is right ENVE or Campagnolo??? (presumably whichever suits your view perchance?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYUOLGEPw9Q
Many ways to skin a cat as they say, but it all depends if you know all the figures or are just looking for comments online to suit your viewpoint.
Any questions please let me know, Superstar0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Please stop trying to whip up a storm in a teacup Ugo.
I'm not saying I don't, at the end of the day we are talking about bicycle wheels and there are more important issues in the world, so yes, a strom in a teacup indeed.
However, it is also true that you deliberately avoid commenting on the fact that yet again another 2 sets of your wheels have been found with low and inconsistent tension... blowing smoke on the matter won't solve the issue.
To the point: are you going to talk about the possibility that maybe something is not quite right with the Holland machines engineer or you are just going to ignore the all matter in the knowledge that everything is fine? Yes or no?
'cause really... this is feedback, in the 21st century it is gold!left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Please stop trying to whip up a storm in a teacup Ugo.
I'm not saying I don't, at the end of the day we are talking about bicycle wheels and there are more important issues in the world, so yes, a strom in a teacup indeed.
However, it is also true that you deliberately avoid commenting on the fact that yet again another 2 sets of your wheels have been found with low and inconsistent tension... blowing smoke on the matter won't solve the issue.
To the point: are you going to talk about the possibility that maybe something is not quite right with the Holland machines engineer or you are just going to ignore the all matter in the knowledge that everything is fine? Yes or no?
'cause really... this is feedback, in the 21st century it is gold!
Hello as we have discussed before many many times we have never seen these alleged problems, so we dont know anythign about them. There is a clear difference between an alleged problem and one which is real. Obvioulsy as you say lots of people arent as experienced as you Ugo and and might not understand waht they have infront of them, therfore can we believe everything they say as gospel? We can see Dkay said he tightened his front wheel upto the rim limit, when we have both agreed previously that this is not the correct tension. So no, i would rather investigate their problems rather than spouting vitriolic comments on a forum.
So you have found Sub 1% of our build of this wheelset with an alleged problem which is a problem in someones opinion. So basically its a storm in a teacup to promote handbuild sales is it?
Holland mechanics are over next week to do routine maintinence and another machine upgrade to the lacer, do you want to pop round then and discuss your knowledge with them in person?
Any questions please let me know, Superstar0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Hello as we have discussed before many many times we have never seen these alleged problems, so we dont know anythign about them. There is a clear difference between an alleged problem and one which is real. Obvioulsy as you say lots of people arent as experienced as you Ugo and and might not understand waht they have infront of them, therfore can we believe everything they say as gospel? We can see Dkay said he tightened his front wheel upto the rim limit, when we have both agreed previously that this is not the correct tension. So no, i would rather investigate their problems rather than spouting vitriolic comments on a forum.
Everything is possible, but It seems to me that DKay's mechanic knows his stuff... I certainly wouldn't doubt a professional can do his job.... Not sure doubting everybody is a good way to go (Ugo, the Dt Swiss staff that calibrate the tension meters, the LBS that checked the wheels, the Couriers that transport the wheels...)
I think we have now passed 1%... I counted 6-7 people who had some form of complaintSuperstarComponents.com wrote:So you have found Sub 1% of our build of this wheelset with an alleged problem which is a problem in someones opinion.
No, the real reason behind all this is that IF your wheels are sub standard, then the Pacenti SL 23 rim will be discredited and it is a popular rim among many builders... not myself though... I have only built 3 sets of Pacenti rims in my life... as for the self promotion, I remind you to what was said many pages before.SuperstarComponents.com wrote:So basically its a storm in a teacup to promote handbuild sales is it?
tempting, but I can't... however, I have submitted an enquiry to HM about torque as a way to assess tension and I am curious to see what they say. ENVE don't seem to believe in torque, which is interestingSuperstarComponents.com wrote:Holland mechanics are over next week to do routine maintinence and another machine upgrade to the lacer, do you want to pop round then and discuss your knowledge with them in person?left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:SuperstarComponents.com wrote:now your going to tell me handbuilds are crap yes...
. Machine or human is irrelevant,
Priceless Ugo coming from you that's almost as good as your contention that a spoke tension meter isn't a tool of the trade in cycling ...ugo.santalucia wrote:An LBS with a proper tension meter would be a first for me. Most have none .
I am not... it's simply not a tool of the trade and I have never seen a workshop that had a professional tension gauge. Some have a heavy duty one, robust and giving reasonable readings like the Park Tool one, but professional calibrated ones have no place in an oily workshop. Mine gets out of its padded case once or twice a week.
CRC sell your shiny shiny red DT swiss tension gauge for just £330 quid. Not a tool of the trade ? Really ? Come off it old boy try to say things that are at least vaguely credible.
.http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/dt-s ... -prod81440
What are you going to say next CRC arn't in the cycle trade ?
Tell me this If a spoke tension meter isn't a tool of the cycling trade what is it ? I ran what you said about it not being a tool of the trade past the guys at my LBS, Family business been there over 30 years : they laughed.................. a lot0 -
Welcome back Paxington, your wisdom was missed...
left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Welcome back Paxington, your wisdom was missed...
Answer the question.0 -
OK here's an easy one
I've now bought two sets of wheels from Superstar.
How many have you bought?
I should add here that as a "builder" of wheels it might even make financial sense for you to buy these for £149.
So have you bought a set/sets of these wheels ?0 -
this whole thread boils down to cognitive dissonance.
or not...0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:this whole thread boils down to cognitive dissonance.
or not...
Yes that and a bit of confirmation bias.
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SuperstarComponents.com wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:this whole thread boils down to cognitive dissonance.
or not...
Yes that and a bit of confirmation bias.
anything to avoid buyers remorse....
how much was that wheel building machine again?0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:We can see Dkay said he tightened his front wheel upto the rim limit, when we have both agreed previously that this is not the correct tension. So no, i would rather investigate their problems rather than spouting vitriolic comments on a forum.
I have categorically not said this, or stated this anywhere.0 -
DKay wrote:SuperstarComponents.com wrote:We can see Dkay said he tightened his front wheel upto the rim limit, when we have both agreed previously that this is not the correct tension. So no, i would rather investigate their problems rather than spouting vitriolic comments on a forum.
I have categorically not said this, or stated this anywhere.
Im not trying to be criticising, but you did say the following which sounds to me like you have cranked the tension up from the correct figure we have sent out. As discussed with Ugo and he agreed with me there are technical reasons for radial fronts not being as tight, namely the dish angle and radial lacing with low spoke numbers. What you think the correct tension is and what we calculate the right tension to be (from themanufacturers specifications) are obviously different, but this clearly shows that comments about our wheels being under tensioned are not true in alot of cases. As we said before the max rim tension is not the correct tension to build a wheel to!
At the end of the day if you want to modify your wheels from the correct tension we ship them out at, its at your own risk.
Quote:
Postby DKay » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:05 pm
Got both sets of my wheels back today after them being fettled. The general impression, was that all of the wheels had low average tensions, with the SL23 front being particularly low, requiring anything up to a full turn to get up to the rims recommended tension.0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Im not trying to be criticising, but you did say the following which sounds to me like you have cranked the tension up from the correct figure we have sent out. As discussed with Ugo and he agreed with me there are technical reasons for radial fronts not being as tight, namely the dish angle and radial lacing with low spoke numbers. What you think the correct tension is and what we calculate the right tension to be (from themanufacturers specifications) are obviously different, but this clearly shows that comments about our wheels being under tensioned are not true in alot of cases. As we said before the max rim tension is not the correct tension to build a wheel to!
At the end of the day if you want to modify your wheels from the correct tension we ship them out at, its at your own risk.
Obviously, this all assumes that the 'correct (tension) figure you sent out', was indeed, correct and consistant in the first place.
Compared to my Cycle Clinic built Archetypes, which have the same type and number of spokes and almost identical lengths, the tensions were significantly lower, albeit just using a simple acoustic test. This is one of the reasons why I wanted my wheels looking at the in the first place.
I repeat, that I have no vested interest in this issue. But, I'm reporting word for word, what my mechanic told me when I picked my wheels up. People can make their own mind up.
P.S. My Superstar alloy lockrings got delivered today. They look great, especially for the price.0 -
DKay wrote:SuperstarComponents.com wrote:Im not trying to be criticising, but you did say the following which sounds to me like you have cranked the tension up from the correct figure we have sent out. As discussed with Ugo and he agreed with me there are technical reasons for radial fronts not being as tight, namely the dish angle and radial lacing with low spoke numbers. What you think the correct tension is and what we calculate the right tension to be (from themanufacturers specifications) are obviously different, but this clearly shows that comments about our wheels being under tensioned are not true in alot of cases. As we said before the max rim tension is not the correct tension to build a wheel to!
At the end of the day if you want to modify your wheels from the correct tension we ship them out at, its at your own risk.
Obviously, this all assumes that the 'correct (tension) figure you sent out', was indeed, correct and consistant in the first place.
Compared to my Cycle Clinic built Archetypes, which have the same type and number of spokes and almost identical lengths, the tensions were significantly lower, albeit just using a simple acoustic test. This is one of the reasons why I wanted my wheels looking at the in the first place.
I repeat, that I have no vested interest in this issue. But, I'm reporting word for word, what my mechanic told me when I picked my wheels up. People can make their own mind up.
P.S. My Superstar alloy lockrings got delivered today. They look great, especially for the price.
The problem i have with this entire thread is its based on "my mechanic/shop said they were wrong", but nobody seems to want to put figures down on what the correct figures they are claming are. With discussions with the master wheelbuilder on here he claimed initially that you should max the rim tension which is completley wrong, and he doesnt seem to understand what calibration is so who knows how accurate his figures are based on that.
I deal with the manufacturers of the rims, spokes and hubs personally and we use their feedback and figures to set the correct tensions in our build process. What do these mechanics base it on as they have little access to this information...
Obviously people who are our competitors are quite likely to suck through their teeth and claim its faulty when theres actually nothing wrong with it, thats how they get people to buy from them instead!
Ill say again lets base this conversation on actual facts and if you have an issue please let us know so we can investigate it correctly.
Any questions please let me know, Superstar0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:With discussions with the master wheelbuilder on here he claimed initially that you should max the rim tension which is completley wrong, and he doesnt seem to understand what calibration is so who knows how accurate his figures are based on that.
I would normally object to this, but since somebody on here complained with the publisher about the involvement of a moderator in a discussion such as this and we are therefore reviewing the all subject of "what moderating means", I have been asked to refrain from posting on this thread. What it means for you is that you should also leave me out, because yes, I cannot say what I think, but I can still give you a ban... so please, go ahead without me... left the forum March 20230 -
I have no vested interest at all in this (well I did have a SS MTB wheelset that had to be rebuilt after 200 mile by LBS :shock: ), but if you (superstar) think this this is a great way of attracting new customers I think they have got your attitude wrong.
In my eyes you are criticising everyone who has made a comment, you bite at everything Ugo has to say (ever thought he may well be winding you up?)
Yes your wheels are a bargain price, but your "truing for life" is not all that. £15 up front (insured) courier costs, that may/may not be refunded on the whim of one of your wheel builders.
Great thread though!0 -
My basic conclusion from all this and being a customer of lots of different superstar products is that things like pads, skewers etc are great at a good price. Some of the wheels are a bargain in terms of parts alone (I don't think I could have got the pacenti rims and spokes at price I paid so fair enough) but the actual build quality is a bit crap. And before everyone jumps on that comment I have 3 different sets of wheels and all of them have been poor quality in terms of build. The C46 front in particular was not even remotely true. But at the end of the day they are still good for the price and nothing my LBS havent been able to sort very cheaply. So can't really complain.
Would certainly never buy wheels at anywhere close to the normal price from them though. They could also do with investing in some decent customer service training, my email raising issues took more than a week to reply and didn't even answer my question and calling doesn't get me anywhere. Even PX pick up the phone occasionally.
But never mind LBs has sorted issues and I'm riding so happy days.0 -
My experience with the chap on email was that "we weren't even expecting to get 11sp hubs built on the carbon wheels'. I asked for a rough date and he said not at all!? WTF?0
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Since torque is cLeary the best way to measure tension why do Holland offer an acoustic tension upgrade? :? 0
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This is the thread equivalent of Hit The Mole for SSC0
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I think it's a shame somebody ran to teacher. Your experience and input on wheel threads are much appreciated by many. If you were to actively moderate and change things on a thread you are so heavily involved with I can see why people might cry foul, but I have seen no evidence of that. I hope you are allowed to carry on as you are.ugo.santalucia wrote:...since somebody on here complained with the publisher about the involvement of a moderator in a discussion such as this and we are therefore reviewing the all subject of "what moderating means", I have been asked to refrain from posting on this thread. What it means for you is that you should also leave me out, because yes, I cannot say what I think, but I can still give you a ban... so please, go ahead without me...0 -
I bet we can all guess who cried to mummy.0
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It would be sad to lose this thread and I mean that not from an "entertainment" point of view but the input from SSC,Ugo & DKay and others on wheel tensioning. It has been a good debate so far and I've learnt a lot of stuff.0
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darkhairedlord wrote:Since torque is cLeary the best way to measure tension why do Holland offer an acoustic tension upgrade? :?
As said previously they havent actually launched the acoustic method and its still under development. I should know as i own one of the few machines which can be fitted with it. Once its ready i will assess it and if its good upgrade the machine as part of our program of constant improvement.
Im happy to keep answering questions, and ill keep it to facts.
Any questions please let me know, Superstar0
