Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh
Comments
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paxington wrote:As I've said several times on here I'm delighted with my wheels having actually used them for over 1500K now. I weigh 90KG so they've had a fair test thus far.
1500 Km in a month is pretty good going in the bleak mid winter... chapeau... :!:
300 Km in the last 3 days is even more impressive... considering the rain and wind and all of that... :shock:
Most impressive of all is that despite that mileage you managed to rack up another Kg...
left the forum March 20230 -
Your very kind. Hey when you get back from Lincoln pop down to Bristol. I'll show you around the Mendips. If you really want to we'll pop into my LBS and I'll get them to take some readings on my wheels for you. After all of this debate I reckon I'm as intrigued as you are. If you're paying obviously.
Now I know the done thing is to put a winky face here but sorry I just can't bring myself to use them.0 -
An LBS with a proper tension meter would be a first for me. Most have none and a few have the Park Tool one which can only give guidelines rather than numbers.paxington wrote:If you really want to we'll pop into my LBS and I'll get them to take some readings on my wheels for you.
There are a few professional ones on the market which have a certified calibration for a range of spokes... if you are really curious you can buy one... happy to give you advice there...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:An LBS with a proper tension meter would be a first for me. Most have none .
Notwithstanding your views on factory wheels , it's good to hear that you don't make sweeping generalizations about local bike shops . This one has been there for a very long time. They sold me a Holdsworth in 1982 which
I still use when I'm feeling a little nostalgic.
Isn't thecyleclinic an LBS ?
Do you mean to say he doesn't have a proper tension meter? I rather suspect that he does. He appears very profession in his approach. To be clear , he's not my LBS obviously.0 -
paxington wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:An LBS with a proper tension meter would be a first for me. Most have none .
Notwithstanding your views on factory wheels , it's good to hear that don't make sweeping generalizations about local bike shops . This one has been there for a very long time. They sold me a Holdsworth in 1982 which I still use when I'm feeling a little nostalgic.
I am not... it's simply not a tool of the trade and I have never seen a workshop that had a professional tension gauge. Some have a heavy duty one, robust and giving reasonable readings like the Park Tool one, but professional calibrated ones have no place in an oily workshop. Mine gets out of its padded case once or twice a week.
I recommend you buy this one and use the readings for DT competition for your wheels, or if you want to be really really accurate I can send you a copy of the conversion chart for Sapim spokes (which basically are the same numbers give or take a couple of percentage points... )
left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:paxington wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:An LBS with a proper tension meter would be a first for me. Most have none .
Notwithstanding your views on factory wheels , it's good to hear that don't make sweeping generalizations about local bike shops . This one has been there for a very long time. They sold me a Holdsworth in 1982 which I still use when I'm feeling a little nostalgic.
I am not... it's simply not a tool of the trade and I have never seen a workshop that had a professional tension gauge. Some have a heavy duty one, robust and giving reasonable readings like the Park Tool one, but professional calibrated ones have no place in an oily workshop. Mine gets out of its padded case once or twice a week.
I recommend you buy this one and use the readings for DT competition for your wheels, or if you want to be really really accurate I can send you a copy of the conversion chart for Sapim spokes (which basically are the same numbers give or take a couple of percentage points... )
Once again kind advice but I would never use it. My LBS are superb if anything needs doing to my wheels.0 -
paxington wrote:Do you mean to say he doesn't have a proper tension meter? I rather suspect that he does. He appears very profession in his approach. To be clear , he's not my LBS obviously.
He does... a red one like mine...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:I recommend you buy this one and use the readings for DT competition for your wheels, or if you want to be really really accurate I can send you a copy of the conversion chart for Sapim spokes (which basically are the same numbers give or take a couple of percentage points... )
I know you like being pedantic about being factually right. So as both dt comp and Sapim race are both butted to the same diameter they will actually be exactly the same and not a couple of percentage points different.
That is if the spokes are made to the correct spec (which as you claim rolled threads aren't as the reason for torque readings not working would be almost certain...) (sarcasm)
Actually the readings of the boggo park meter and the fancy DT one will be just the same but the dt has a finer dial to read the numbers. The park meter is based on the principle of a bending beam torque wrench, so actually very accurate but not as shiny or red.
Regards, superstar0 -
DKay wrote:Superstar, can you please tell us what was the target tension on our SL23 wheels? Specifically, the 20 / 24 versions?
I asked this a couple of pages back, but it seems to have been overlooked.
I think they have a target torque!0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:DKay wrote:Superstar, can you please tell us what was the target tension on our SL23 wheels? Specifically, the 20 / 24 versions?
I asked this a couple of pages back, but it seems to have been overlooked.
I think they have a target torque!
Yep, which equates to a target tension. Machine-built wheels are generally always built significantly under-tensioned. Otherwise the machine ends up taking far too long making a large amount of small adjustments once the higher tensions are reached, as the rim increasingly responds to further tensioning. Superstar make a huge number of wheels and obviously need to recoup the outlay on their machines, hence I would think that they'd be getting them on and off the machine as quickly as possible, which means lower tensions. This is of course, me assuming.
To be honest, for the price paid (which is incredible), I'm not expecing much from the build quality anyway and I'm happy to pay out a little extra to have them looked at and tweaked if necessary. But, seeing as the recommended tension for SL23 rims is between 110 - 125kgF, I'm really interested to know what tension Superstar program into their machines. Likewise for my C46 carbon clinchers. I'll understand if SSC can't/won't answer my question, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
P.S. If my two sets of SSC wheels come back with a glowing report, I will be happy to report this. I have no 'vested interest in doing anything other than reporting the truth.0 -
DKay wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:DKay wrote:Superstar, can you please tell us what was the target tension on our SL23 wheels? Specifically, the 20 / 24 versions?
I asked this a couple of pages back, but it seems to have been overlooked.
I think they have a target torque!
Yep, which equates to a target tension. Machine-built wheels are generally always built significantly under-tensioned. Otherwise the machine ends up taking far too long making a large amount of small adjustments once the higher tensions are reached, as the rim increasingly responds to further tensioning. Superstar make a huge number of wheels and obviously need to recoup the outlay on their machines, hence I would think that they'd be getting them on and off the machine as quickly as possible, which means lower tensions. This is of course, me assuming.
To be honest, for the price paid (which is incredible), I'm not expecing much from the build quality anyway and I'm happy to pay out a little extra to have them looked at and tweaked if necessary. But, seeing as the recommended tension for SL23 rims is between 110 - 125kgF, I'm really interested to know what tension Superstar program into their machines. Likewise for my C46 carbon clinchers. I'll understand if SSC can't/won't answer my question, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
P.S. If my two sets of SSC wheels come back with a glowing report, I will be happy to report this. I have no 'vested interest in doing anything other than reporting the truth.
Ok tension wise I would use similar to as discussed before. Front is 90Kgf radial, Rear drive is 120kgf rear non-drive 80Kgf. Bear in mind this is average not minimum or maximum tension. The carbon deeper section a bit less due to the steeper dish angles as we build on torque the machine can recognise each carbon rim from its profile and pulls up a programme with slightly higher torque to counteract the extra friction of the carbon nipple seat.
About the machine, yes we build a lot of wheels but we are not a factory doing 400 pairs a day. We actually have extremely long build times for a machine to keep the quality high. First it taks a laced wheel (all nipples tightened to within .25mm (ie half a turn on nipple) of each other, so it's relatively straight and even tension before it starts. Then the robot identifies the wheel, moves it's hands to match the spoke pattern and loads a custom build program for each wheel. Then we use multiple steps to build up tension first to 70%, then it distresses the spokes, then upto 90%, then it starts final truing with a minimum tension limit. Obviously being a computer it calculates from all the runout readings and tensions what to do next. If I was building in a bike factory you would allow 3 rounds to get them done quick, we allow 10 rounds and if it's not good by then it's rejected as faulty.
Next thing to note is our machine holds the spokes while tightening the nipple so we get zero spoke windup. That means none of this pinging and going out of true on the first ride. This minimum tension to save time is actually complete rubbish, it can turn nipples faster and more accurately than any human! To do all 24 spokes is only about 30 seconds work as it's got 2 hands, plus it's measuring runout and tension on every spoke at the same time.
I get a bit frustrated when people presume we have a machine therefore must be banging out wheels in seconds. It's totally not the case. We pride ourselves on quality and have invested in high end kit to increase the quality level and make it consistent.
Might be of interest, while I was having some dinner tonight the TV was on with "how it's made". Fulcrum wheels lacing wheels by hand and then using a holland mechanics machine to true them... So are fulcrum and campagnolo wheels junk as well then???
Any questions please let me know, superstar0 -
Thanks for the reply SSC. Appreciated. Always interesting to have an insight into manufacturing production methods and policies.
So the rims are tensioned just over 18% lower than the lower limit of what the manufacturers recommended range, on the front anyway. What this means in terms of the overall durability of the resulting wheel, especially with a spoke as thin as Sapim Lasers, I don't know though and could only theorise. But then, the front is subjected to less load than the rear...0 -
DKay wrote:Thanks for the reply SSC. Appreciated. Always interesting to have an insight into manufacturing production methods and policies.
So the rims are tensioned just over 18% lower than the lower limit of what the manufacturers recommended range, on the front anyway. What this means in terms of the overall durability of the resulting wheel, especially with a spoke as thin as Sapim Lasers, I don't know though and could only theorise. But then, the front is subjected to less load than the rear...
That's where whelbuilding knowledge comes in rather than blindly following figures. Radial front spokes have lower tensions due to the higher dish angle. Cranking more tension into it will just give you a wavy front wheel. Even ugo agrees with me on that!
The current big issue is the steep drive dish angles caused by 11 speed freehubs make the tension balance a bigger compromise than ever. The solution is a wider rear end, mountain bikes are going from 135mm to 148 mm for this very reason.
As for thin spokes being weaker it's not that simple in real life. All a spoke needs to do is hold tension so as long as it can take the loading without plasticly deforming it will work. The problem with lasers and other thin spokes is that at higher tensions the friction increases at the nipple so you start twisting the spoke rather than tightening. This is why blades are good for hand builders because they can use a bladed spoke holder to prevent this. On our TCS machine it holds the spoke on a tiny square near the nipple as it tightened so this problem doesn't apply to us, but hand builders can have problems hence some people claiming they are weak...
Regards superstar
Regards superstar0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:The problem with lasers and other thin spokes is that at higher tensions the friction increases at the nipple so you start twisting the spoke rather than tightening. This is why blades are good for hand builders because they can use a bladed spoke holder to prevent this. On our TCS machine it holds the spoke on a tiny square near the nipple as it tightened so this problem doesn't apply to us, but hand builders can have problems hence some people claiming they are weak...
Regards superstar
Regards superstar
Utter bollox... I very much hope other builders on here who I am sure are following and use Laser spokes at high tension will comment... :?left the forum March 20230 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:.... at higher tensions the friction increases at the nipple so you start twisting the spoke rather than tightening. This is why torque is not a good analog for tension
Regards superstar
FTFY0 -
No replies, then it's my job:
A builder who wants to call himself a builder needs to be able to use light butted spokes... How do you build a Laser/Revolution/D-Light/Superspoke etc and avoid windup without half a million quid worth of machinery?
As you turn the nipple wrench to increase tension by a fraction of a turn (whether that is half or less), you always over tighten by 1/4 of a turn and back off by just as much. This simple operation removes the bulk of the windup. If any residual windup is still in the spokes, a proper de-stressing step will remove it. The best way to de-stress a wheel is to balance it on the hub cap against the floor and press with the upper part of your body weight all along the rim on both sides of the wheel. This step has to be done every time the tension is increased during the build and it is the very last step the wheel undergoes before it is finished.
Either that, or you buy a Holland wheel building machine...
left the forum March 20230 -
I had a bit of a comparison last night, of my SSC SL23 wheels compared to my Miche / H Plus Son Archetypes which were hand-built by Malcolm (thecycleclinic) in Sept. Both wheels are built using Sapim Lasers.
Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.0 -
DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Download a guitar tuning app and you can quantify the difference (you obviously need to be sure the spoke lengths are the same) ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:No replies, then it's my job:
A builder who wants to call himself a builder needs to be able to use light butted spokes... How do you build a Laser/Revolution/D-Light/Superspoke etc and avoid windup without half a million quid worth of machinery?
As you turn the nipple wrench to increase tension by a fraction of a turn (whether that is half or less), you always over tighten by 1/4 of a turn and back off by just as much. This simple operation removes the bulk of the windup. If any residual windup is still in the spokes, a proper de-stressing step will remove it. The best way to de-stress a wheel is to balance it on the hub cap against the floor and press with the upper part of your body weight all along the rim on both sides of the wheel. This step has to be done every time the tension is increased during the build and it is the very last step the wheel undergoes before it is finished.
Either that, or you buy a Holland wheel building machine...
Yes as usual we both agree again (not sure why you still try and make out im wrong whenwe are both saying the same thing?) , thats how you cope with it if you are handbuilding and the higher the tension the harder it becomes. Plus if you twist it too much you start work hardening the spokes and this leads to breakages which probbably makes people think they are weak.
All im saying is we dont have this issue, surely that makes life easier and more accurate.
heres a bit of maths:
Strength on middle section: 1500 N/mm2
ara of 1.5 dia spoke 1.77 mm2
So a single laser spoke can hold over 250kg. you could pick most cars up with just 5 laser spokes. So anyone who says lasers are weak, care to explain why? Oh and your rim would fail before the spoke does.
Hope that helps, Superstar0 -
There is a specific spoke tension app, I think it's called Spoke Tensioner. Being tone deaf I was really starting to struggle with which spoke was tighter or looser when tensioning spokes. You plug in the length of the spoke and diameter then pluck it and it gives a tension figure. Not sure how accurate the figures given are but it was very good for getting them even. Then had the wheel checked by a respected local builder with a proper tension gauge and the tensions were very evenly matched.meanredspider wrote:DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Download a guitar tuning app and you can quantify the difference (you obviously need to be sure the spoke lengths are the same)0 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:So a single laser spoke can hold over 250kg. you could pick most cars up with just 5 laser spokes. So anyone who says lasers are weak, care to explain why? Oh and your rim would fail before the spoke does.
Hope that helps, Superstar
Who said Laser spokes are not STRONG in this thread? Are you running your own show?left the forum March 20230 -
SuperstarComponents.com wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:No replies, then it's my job:
A builder who wants to call himself a builder needs to be able to use light butted spokes... How do you build a Laser/Revolution/D-Light/Superspoke etc and avoid windup without half a million quid worth of machinery?
As you turn the nipple wrench to increase tension by a fraction of a turn (whether that is half or less), you always over tighten by 1/4 of a turn and back off by just as much. This simple operation removes the bulk of the windup. If any residual windup is still in the spokes, a proper de-stressing step will remove it. The best way to de-stress a wheel is to balance it on the hub cap against the floor and press with the upper part of your body weight all along the rim on both sides of the wheel. This step has to be done every time the tension is increased during the build and it is the very last step the wheel undergoes before it is finished.
Either that, or you buy a Holland wheel building machine...
Yes as usual we both agree again (not sure why you still try and make out im wrong whenwe are both saying the same thing?) , thats how you cope with it if you are handbuilding and the higher the tension the harder it becomes. Plus if you twist it too much you start work hardening the spokes and this leads to breakages which probbably makes people think they are weak.
All im saying is we dont have this issue, surely that makes life easier and more accurate.
heres a bit of maths:
Strength on middle section: 1500 N/mm2
ara of 1.5 dia spoke 1.77 mm2
So a single laser spoke can hold over 250kg. you could pick most cars up with just 5 laser spokes. So anyone who says lasers are weak, care to explain why? Oh and your rim would fail before the spoke does.
Hope that helps, Superstar
I assume by strength you mean ultimate tensile strength (Sut)?
The yield strength (Sy) for this is very likely to be in the region of 1200 MPa so the ratio Sy/Sut is likely to be high and the dominant failure will be brittle fracture rather than yielding (Ping).
For steels it is typical to use an endurance limit of 0.5 x Sut where Sut < 1400MPa and 700MPa where Sut > 1400MPa.
For 302 steel you also need to consider the effects of operating below room temperature (riding in winter?)0 -
Veronese68 wrote:
There is a specific spoke tension app, I think it's called Spoke Tensioner. Being tone deaf I was really starting to struggle with which spoke was tighter or looser when tensioning spokes. You plug in the length of the spoke and diameter then pluck it and it gives a tension figure. Not sure how accurate the figures given are but it was very good for getting them even. Then had the wheel checked by a respected local builder with a proper tension gauge and the tensions were very evenly matched.meanredspider wrote:DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Download a guitar tuning app and you can quantify the difference (you obviously need to be sure the spoke lengths are the same)
does this work OK with three cross or is the pitch affected by the overlap?0 -
I used it on a 3 cross build. Pitch is affected by the overlap, but the measurement you put in is from the overlap to the nipple. You have to hold the overlapping spoke so as to avoid a false reading. Probably best not to have the radio on either. You do have to pay for the app, but only about £2.99. Compared to what most of us spend on our bikes it's not that much.darkhairedlord wrote:Veronese68 wrote:
There is a specific spoke tension app, I think it's called Spoke Tensioner. Being tone deaf I was really starting to struggle with which spoke was tighter or looser when tensioning spokes. You plug in the length of the spoke and diameter then pluck it and it gives a tension figure. Not sure how accurate the figures given are but it was very good for getting them even. Then had the wheel checked by a respected local builder with a proper tension gauge and the tensions were very evenly matched.meanredspider wrote:DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Download a guitar tuning app and you can quantify the difference (you obviously need to be sure the spoke lengths are the same)
does this work OK with three cross or is the pitch affected by the overlap?
I don't know how accurate it really is, but seemed to work ok.0 -
DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Fingers are grossly inaccurate in detecting small differences, so if you consistently detect a difference, it must be significant.left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Fingers are grossly inaccurate in detecting small differences, so if you consistently detect a difference, it must be significant.
Keep cracking away at that speculation without evidence...
Regards, Superstar0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Fingers are grossly inaccurate in detecting small differences, so if you consistently detect a difference, it must be significant.
The change in pitch was obvious. Admittedly, it wasn't not exactly controlled conditions though.
Anyway, I dropped my wheels off today and will get them back next Tuesday.0 -
A few questions for superstar component if I may:
You mentioned earlier on in the thread that you were selling many wheel sets - it made it difficult to have the time to respond on this thread - what fraction of wheel sets do you have returned for faults such as low tensioned spokes etc. Does the warranty cover fixes to issues like low tensioning of spokes etc.0 -
Veronese68 wrote:
There is a specific spoke tension app, I think it's called Spoke Tensioner. Being tone deaf I was really starting to struggle with which spoke was tighter or looser when tensioning spokes. You plug in the length of the spoke and diameter then pluck it and it gives a tension figure. Not sure how accurate the figures given are but it was very good for getting them even. Then had the wheel checked by a respected local builder with a proper tension gauge and the tensions were very evenly matched.meanredspider wrote:DKay wrote:Giving the spokes in both wheels a good plucking, the spokes on my Archetypes are definitely strung significantly tighter, both front and back.
Download a guitar tuning app and you can quantify the difference (you obviously need to be sure the spoke lengths are the same)
I might still try my guitar tuning app just out of interest but that one sounds better (I'd been only half joking - but industrial belt tensioning is sometimes done like this - albeit not with "Guitar Tuna")ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
