Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh

dazz_ni45

I'm not sure how he knew about the washers, but it was the first thing he mentioned when he saw the wheels. He did saw it just related to a certain spoke count. I will ask again when I pick up the wheels.

ugo.santalucia

dazz_ni45 wrote:

I'm not sure how he knew about the washers, but it was the first thing he mentioned when he saw the wheels. He did saw it just related to a certain spoke count. I will ask again when I pick up the wheels.

Pacenti now recommends the use of washers for 24 H rear rims only. A low count rim suffers more the load-unload cycles as the load is spread between fewer spokes... as a result it can fatigue and crack quicker. Incidentally the only Archetype I have seen cracking at the spoke holes was a 24 H rear rim.
If the rim manufacturer recommends washers, then they should supply them with the rim, especially in that price range, at least they can control which ones people stick inside, as using the wrong one could be worse than not using any.

DKay

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dazz_ni45 wrote:

He did say that the wheels were great value for money at that price and that many factory built wheels he gets in suffers from the same issues, although perhaps not to the same extent or level of inaccuracy.

I think it depends... if you talk about the big four, then I disagree: I have inspected many Mavic, Fulcrum, Campagnolo and Shimano and as new or near new they are always spot on with tension very close to the one they spec on the technical manuals.

That's pretty interesting. I wonder if they actually do the final tensioning on a machine or by hand? I know that the Megafactories vid shows the former, but who knows what creative editing was done or if a step was missed-out to get the finished vid down to a certain run time etc.

ugo.santalucia

DKay wrote:

That's pretty interesting. I wonder if they actually do the final tensioning on a machine or by hand? I know that the Megafactories vid shows the former, but who knows what creative editing was done or if a step was missed-out to get the finished vid down to a certain run time etc.

I sense that the current trend of screwing the spoke directly onto the rim (Mavic FORE etc... ) is a way to make wheel building more reliable for a robot. By doing so, you remove a few possible cockups that prevent to correlate torque with tension. Large threads and screws can be machined to perfection and using a known amount of a known pre applied threadlock can be factored in to get some reliable correlation chart. With tiny spoke threads and drilled rims you have a lot of variables and in the end unreliability is almost a given

src1

Just got a nice and speedy reply from Pacenti:

"Thanks for reaching out, and for your interest in the SL23 rim.

We only require nipple washers on 24h rear wheels, or 28h rear wheels for riders 200lbs or more.

I like the oval ones from Sapim. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask!

Best regards,


Kirk A. Pacenti // Owner
Pacenti Cycle Design"

Pryally

I asked the same question of superstar about the use of washers and got the following reply:-

We do not use nipple washers in these wheels for two main of reasons; one
reason for using nipple washers is to avoid spoke twist, our Holland
mechanics wheel building machine holds the spokes independently while
tensioning as well as de-stressing spokes between tightening rounds in order
to eliminate spoke twist. The other reason for nipple washers is to spread
the load of the spoke tension at the point of contact with the rim; we use
non standard nipples with a larger flange surface area designed to dissipate
this force in the same way a washer would.
>
> We apreciate that you may not be comfortable using wheels built
differently to the rim manufacturers recommendations, however we would
stress that these are only recommendations, we of course take full
responsibility for the quality of our wheel builds and manufacturing errors
are covered under our two year warranty.
>
> We are able to accept returns of wheels returned in 'unused and saleable
condition', please see the returns information here if you wish to return
your wheels:

I don't think this a reasonable reply - I would hope my summer wheels would last longer than two years

londoncommuter

I've missed this thread. Felt there was a hole in my life somehow.

src1

I've not heard of using washers to prevent spoke twist.

I'd like to see their non-standard nipples (spoke ones only please).

Pryally

i asked the same question about the spoke twist and if they would provide dimensions for these so called washers - was ignored and got the following reply:-

With regards to spoke twist, this can occur with very thin spokes at high
tension when the friction on the spoke head becomes greater than the
torsional strength of the spoke. Using a washer helps to disperse the
friction and avoid this effect. The way our wheel builder negates this is to
hold the spoke by a flat surface at the rim end of the spoke so that the
thinner middle section of the spoke is not exposed to any twisting force.

Regarding the warranty we agree that most wheels will be used for longer
than a two year period, however as with the majority of products our
warranty is limited to a finite period.

We hope that you can rest assured of the build quality of the wheels, as
stated previously if you would prefer to return the wheels we can accept
unused returns for exchange or refunds.

I think their products are a great price but don't like to be treated like I'm an idiot..

ugo.santalucia

SRC1 wrote:

I like the oval ones from Sapim. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask!

Best regards,


Kirk A. Pacenti // Owner
Pacenti Cycle Design"

I like Kirk and I like the oval Sapim too...

However... do the oval ones fit inside the rim holes? I find that most rims don't take them, unless you file them... they're pretty big beasts

DKay

On a related note, I'm about to give my re-tensioned Superstar SL23s their maiden voyage today.

ugo.santalucia

londoncommuter wrote:

I've missed this thread. Felt there was a hole in my life somehow.

Indeed... you can see this thread one of two ways: either it's a classic that keeps coming back in fashion, a bit like a Colnago Master... or it's like one of those turds that you just can't flush and keep coming back up...

dazz_ni45

I did think twice before I brought it back to life.....

ugo.santalucia

dazz_ni45 wrote:

I did think twice before I brought it back to life.....

TBH if you were to erase the trolls and personal attacks it's probably one of the most interesting and informative threads on here...

veronese68

I'd say it's interesting and informative with a bit of comedy value thrown in. Unfortunately I'm sure they weren't meant to be funny though. It's only a concern if somebody can't pick out the useful information from the BS and trolling.

meanredspider

SRC1 wrote:

We only require nipple washers on 24h rear wheels, or 28h rear wheels for riders 200lbs or more.

Just so I'm clear, ALL 24h rear wheels need nipple washers
Only >200lb riders need nipple washers on 28h rear wheels

Correct??

These wheels are going in my son's bike. He only weighs 54kg. I don't think I'm going to worry in either case.

src1

meanredspider wrote:

Just so I'm clear, ALL 24h rear wheels need nipple washers
Only >200lb riders need nipple washers on 28h rear wheels

Correct??

These wheels are going in my son's bike. He only weighs 54kg. I don't think I'm going to worry in either case.

That's how I interpreted it.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

SRC1 wrote:

We only require nipple washers on 24h rear wheels, or 28h rear wheels for riders 200lbs or more.

Just so I'm clear, ALL 24h rear wheels need nipple washers
Only >200lb riders need nipple washers on 28h rear wheels

Correct??

These wheels are going in my son's bike. He only weighs 54kg. I don't think I'm going to worry in either case.

I would not worry anyway. Even in the unlikely event of a rim failure, a rim cracking at the hole only results in a wheel out of true, hardly dangerous... and then of course you have the no quibbles two years warranty...

Sello88

Very interesting and apparently quite contentious thread. To me it raises a question from a slightly different angle . If these wheels can be sold this cheaply , even factoring in possible "tweeking" costs then where does the extra value in a handbuilt set of a similar spec come from given that it's going to run you something in the region of £250 or 120+% more ?
A good local bike shop will build a wheel for £25 so even buying these and having them totally rebuilt is still miles cheaper than most builders would charge to supply the finished product. I notice that now you can buy these from Superstar for £250 but I think the above still holds true, to a lesser degree, even at £100 more than the best selling price of £149.
Why such a long thread basically bemoaning what appears to be a massive bargain ?

matt-h

Sello88 wrote:

Very interesting and apparently quite contentious thread. To me it raises a question from a slightly different angle . If these wheels can be sold this cheaply , even factoring in possible "tweeking" costs then where does the extra value in a handbuilt set of a similar spec come from given that it's going to run you something in the region of £250 or 120+% more ?
A good local bike shop will build a wheel for £25 so even buying these and having them totally rebuilt is still miles cheaper than most builders would charge to supply the finished product. I notice that now you can buy these from Superstar for £250 but I think the above still holds true even at £100 more than the bets selling price of £149.
Why such a long thread basically bemoaning what appears to be a massive bargain ?

The thread has never been about bemoaning the price of the wheelsets - they are astonishing value!
In essence the main problem has escalated because SSC refuses to acknowledge that there is a tension problem and that maybe his machine is not the be all and end all.

Matt

ugo.santalucia

Before anyone goes any further in this attempt to inflame the thread by Sello88, I have to warn you that there is a more than zero possibility he is a reincarnation of Paxington. More than one element point in that direction.

PS: before anyone mention it, looking at the records, paxington was NOT banned as a consequence of this thread, but another one about LA

dazz_ni45

That is the one thing I have been debating. The wheels (@ £150/£170) I believe are a bargain given the price of the individual components, however does a discounted price mean that you should expect or accept a sub-standard build? (I'm not for a second suggesting that all the wheelsets were built to a sub-standard, however mine were). I personally was still expecting the wheels to be fit for purpose and to be generally in line with the manufacturers recommendations regardless of the price and I think that is a fair expectation.

If they had of been more expensive, I would have returned them and asked for my money back but as I said, even with the expenditure of getting them corrected, in my opinion I will still be left with a good wheelset at a good price, although this is expenditure I shouldn't have had nor should I have had to replace the rimtape (SSC have confirmed that the supplied tape was too thick) in order to fit tyres.

As Matt has said the main issue is how SSC have handled themselves on this thread by completely refusing to acknowledge that some of their supplied wheelsets have a problem and that there could be a issue either with how they have been built or their quality control.

DKay

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Before anyone goes any further in this attempt to inflame the thread by Sello88, I have to warn you that there is a more than zero possibility he is a reincarnation of Paxington. More than one element point in that direction.

PS: before anyone mention it, looking at the records, paxington was NOT banned as a consequence of this thread, but another one about LA

LA?

Thanks for the heads up.

*edit* I've just figured out what 'LA' refers to.

ugo.santalucia

DKay wrote:

*edit* I've just figured out what 'LA' refers to.

Glad you did... it's more Texas than California...

DKay

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DKay wrote:

*edit* I've just figured out what 'LA' refers to.

Glad you did... it's more Texas than California...

No doubt, the thread has been pruned back a lot to it's current state. Shame, as light entertainment is always welcome.

freestyle_gus

dazz_ni45 wrote:

That is the one thing I have been debating. The wheels (@ £150/£170) I believe are a bargain given the price of the individual components, however does a discounted price mean that you should expect or accept a sub-standard build? (I'm not for a second suggesting that all the wheelsets were built to a sub-standard, however mine were). I personally was still expecting the wheels to be fit for purpose and to be generally in line with the manufacturers recommendations regardless of the price and I think that is a fair expectation.

If they had of been more expensive, I would have returned them and asked for my money back but as I said, even with the expenditure of getting them corrected, in my opinion I will still be left with a good wheelset at a good price, although this is expenditure I shouldn't have had nor should I have had to replace the rimtape (SSC have confirmed that the supplied tape was too thick) in order to fit tyres.

As Matt has said the main issue is how SSC have handled themselves on this thread by completely refusing to acknowledge that some of their supplied wheelsets have a problem and that there could be a issue either with how they have been built or their quality control.

I would agree. They're not a bargain in any way if they are not fit for purpose. As mentioned previously in the thread I bought the 28s and they are pretty true and well put together, so I'm very happy. Anything less than this and I would have sent them back, as you suggest.

I think once you are getting LBS or similar to correct them you are letting SSC off the hook. I do acknowledge the inconvenience of sending wheels though!

ugo.santalucia

DKay wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DKay wrote:

*edit* I've just figured out what 'LA' refers to.

Glad you did... it's more Texas than California...

No doubt, the thread has been pruned back a lot to it's current state. Shame, as light entertainment is always welcome.

I would not define the comment that led to his ban as "light entertainment"... maybe we are talking about different LA threads... there are probably 100 dotted around the forum... :roll:

matt-h

freestyle_gus wrote:

dazz_ni45 wrote:

If they had of been more expensive, I would have returned them and asked for my money back but as I said, even with the expenditure of getting them corrected, in my opinion I will still be left with a good wheelset at a good price, although this is expenditure I shouldn't have had nor should I have had to replace the rimtape
I think once you are getting LBS or similar to correct them you are letting SSC off the hook. I do acknowledge the inconvenience of sending wheels though!

Whats the point in sending something back if the person you are sending them to, will not acknowledge that there is a fault? :?

freestyle_gus

matt-h wrote:

freestyle_gus wrote:

dazz_ni45 wrote:

If they had of been more expensive, I would have returned them and asked for my money back but as I said, even with the expenditure of getting them corrected, in my opinion I will still be left with a good wheelset at a good price, although this is expenditure I shouldn't have had nor should I have had to replace the rimtape
I think once you are getting LBS or similar to correct them you are letting SSC off the hook. I do acknowledge the inconvenience of sending wheels though!

Whats the point in sending something back if the person you are sending them to, will not acknowledge that there is a fault? :?

I'm sure they would take back a set of wheels that were not right. I know Mr SSC didn't seem to want to talk in specifics, which is to his detriment but as far as I can tell they haven't refused to take back any wheels, just disputed that there are issues... Which of course isn't great!

ugo.santalucia

dazz_ni45 wrote:

That is the one thing I have been debating. The wheels (@ £150/£170) I believe are a bargain given the price of the individual components, however does a discounted price mean that you should expect or accept a sub-standard build? (I'm not for a second suggesting that all the wheelsets were built to a sub-standard, however mine were). I personally was still expecting the wheels to be fit for purpose and to be generally in line with the manufacturers recommendations regardless of the price and I think that is a fair expectation.

If they had of been more expensive, I would have returned them and asked for my money back but as I said, even with the expenditure of getting them corrected, in my opinion I will still be left with a good wheelset at a good price, although this is expenditure I shouldn't have had nor should I have had to replace the rimtape (SSC have confirmed that the supplied tape was too thick) in order to fit tyres.

As Matt has said the main issue is how SSC have handled themselves on this thread by completely refusing to acknowledge that some of their supplied wheelsets have a problem and that there could be a issue either with how they have been built or their quality control.

Basically, if I read your comment correctly, your point is: I am not happy and I am going to vent it, but at the right price, I would buy again.
It's a bit like 2005 general elections... everybody was disgusted with Blair's lies on the weapons of mass destruction... but he was voted in anyway...

It takes a stand for things to change... next time get a pair of Zonda...