Scott Foil - Westbrook Cycles

Miles253

Anybody riding the foil...is it as rough a ride as reviews say?

keef_zip

It's OK - but you do "feel" the road. I suppose it depends heavily on what wheels / tyres you have on it, and what stem / handlebar combo.

Grill

Miles253 wrote:

Anybody riding the foil...is it as rough a ride as reviews say?

It's not. Did the BCM on it last year with no problem.

jgarpotter

I'm considering doing build with the 15 frameset and Di2 (its currently on sale at cycle division, although I think someone said that westbrook is bringing it back).

However, I'm not entirely sure on what else I would need! I would try and build it as cheap as possible to start with, and then over the next year upgrade a few components.

So aside from the frameset + groupset, I'll need my handlebars, steam, wheels, saddle, bar tape and pedals - is there anything else I'll need at all to build it, e.g. cables?

Also does anyone know the weight of the frameset + seatpost?

Thanks

Miles253

keef_zip wrote:

It's OK - but you do "feel" the road. I suppose it depends heavily on what wheels / tyres you have on it, and what stem / handlebar combo.

Maybe with a carbon bar then, such good value equipment

Grill wrote:

Miles253 wrote:

Anybody riding the foil...is it as rough a ride as reviews say?

It's not. Did the BCM on it last year with no problem.

Did you have carbon bars? And what tyres?

Grill

Nope Ritchey WCS bars and C260 stem. Tyres were Pro4 SC.

jgarpotter

When setting up the Di2 do you need to connect it to a computer at all? Apologies if its obvious or not!

Thanks

norvernrob

Received my 2013 Foil 10 today. Had a couple of arse clenching moments tightening the bolts, even though I was using a decent torque wrench set below maximum and I'd greased the bolts beforehand! It weighs 6.75 kg with bottle cages, Garmin and mount. Full sram red apart from a dura ace chain and cassette, which I need to change as an 11-25 is no good for the Peak District, not with me on it anyway!

meanredspider

jgarpotter wrote:

When setting up the Di2 do you need to connect it to a computer at all? Apologies if its obvious or not!

Thanks

No - not for the entirely standard set up

meanredspider

NorvernRob wrote:

Received my 2013 Foil 10 today. Had a couple of ars* clenching moments tightening the bolts, even though I was using a decent torque wrench set below maximum and I'd greased the bolts beforehand!

Looks good. BTW - I'm not really sure why you greased the bolts. That will INCREASE the clamping force for any given torque (less friction) and will also increase the likelihood of the bolts loosening (for exactly the same reason). Better to use dry bolts (screws) and carbon assembly paste on the carbon mating surfaces (not on the bolts).

Edited for clarity...

meanredspider

Miles253 wrote:

Anybody riding the foil...is it as rough a ride as reviews say?

As above, I'm riding the Foil HMX and I don't find it a rough ride at all. I am using Ritchey WCS carbon bars and a Toupe RBX saddle and 25C tyres on RS80 rims but I have no sense of it being harsh. The frame is nice and stiff though.

iwantblue

NorvernRob wrote:

Received my 2013 Foil 10 today. Had a couple of ars* clenching moments tightening the bolts, even though I was using a decent torque wrench set below maximum and I'd greased the bolts beforehand! It weighs 6.75 kg with bottle cages, Garmin and mount. Full sram red apart from a dura ace chain and cassette, which I need to change as an 11-25 is no good for the Peak District, not with me on it anyway!

Dont grease the bolts and expect the torque wrench to do anything accurate, it needs to be dry mating surfaces... you will have over-torqued to what you set... I appreciate you said less than max, so 'might' be ok, but be aware you've tightened more than you think.... :shock:

I'd forgotten about this thread,(so thanks for the pics) I was going to pass Cycle division on a detour home from Huddersfield over Easter , but they were shut so the opportunity passed, and I wanted to seethe silver in the flesh before pulling the trigger.... I'd love to see MRS's in the flesh too, that looks great, with just enough detail without going overboard... but again I'd like to have seen them in the flesh...

Do you have any more close-ups and different angles MRS??


EDIT apologies, MRS has covered it... should have read the whole thread...

andyrr

Not sure if carbon assembly paste is wrong for bolts - I thought it was for carbon - carbon mating surfaces, eg seatpost in frame, stem / bars, maybe a threadlock would be more appropriate ?

meanredspider

andyrr wrote:

Not sure if carbon assembly paste is wrong for bolts - I thought it was for carbon - carbon mating surfaces, eg seatpost in frame, stem / bars, maybe a threadlock would be more appropriate ?

DON'T use carbon assembly paste on bolts - sorry if that's how my post came across (I'll edit for clarity). Use it for the carbon mating surfaces and you can usually get away with lower torques than specified (though I'd still tighten to the required torque to avoid anything getting loose).

meanredspider

IWANTBLUE wrote:

I'd love to see MRS's in the flesh too, that looks great, with just enough detail without going overboard... but again I'd like to have seen them in the flesh...

Do you have any more close-ups and different angles MRS??

I'll see what I can do

Mr Dog

Stunning bike Rob. Looks so good it forces me to rethink a purchase of a Canyon CF SLX!

Miles253

Mr Dog wrote:

Stunning bike Rob. Looks so good it forces me to rethink a purchase of a Canyon CF SLX!

My thoughts too, looks like such a tidy frame. If it can reasonably match comfort, may have a winner

norvernrob

meanredspider wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

Received my 2013 Foil 10 today. Had a couple of ars* clenching moments tightening the bolts, even though I was using a decent torque wrench set below maximum and I'd greased the bolts beforehand!

Looks good. BTW - I'm not really sure why you greased the bolts. That will INCREASE the clamping force for any given torque (less friction) and will also increase the likelihood of the bolts loosening (for exactly the same reason). Better to use dry bolts (screws) and carbon assembly paste on the carbon mating surfaces (not on the bolts).

Edited for clarity...

I must have read it wrong, I thought it was the other way around! I got some grease (not the carbon paste) in with the packaging that said it was for assembly so used it. Good job I torqued everything below maximum, think I'd better do it again and wipe the grease off! Christ I'd have hung myself if I'd broken anything :shock:

drlodge

6Nm torque is 6Nm torque, I really don't think a tiy bit of friction on the threads is going to make that much difference to the pressure the carbon fibre sees.

meanredspider

drlodge wrote:

6Nm torque is 6Nm torque, I really don't think a tiy bit of friction on the threads is going to make that much difference to the pressure the carbon fibre sees.

What do you think it is that stops the bolt coming undone again? Ah yes, that tiny bit of friction

drlodge

meanredspider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

6Nm torque is 6Nm torque, I really don't think a tiy bit of friction on the threads is going to make that much difference to the pressure the carbon fibre sees.

What do you think it is that stops the bolt coming undone again? Ah yes, that tiny bit of friction

Yes, its called stiction friction, a different kind of friction to when the bolt is rotating upon tightening.

norvernrob

Mr Dog wrote:

Stunning bike Rob. Looks so good it forces me to rethink a purchase of a Canyon CF SLX!

Thanks, in all honesty it looks a lot better in the flesh than photos. I was stuck between this and a cannondale supersix Evo in team colours, but glad I went for the Foil in the end.

meanredspider

drlodge wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

6Nm torque is 6Nm torque, I really don't think a tiy bit of friction on the threads is going to make that much difference to the pressure the carbon fibre sees.

What do you think it is that stops the bolt coming undone again? Ah yes, that tiny bit of friction

Yes, its called stiction friction, a different kind of friction to when the bolt is rotating upon tightening.

So, as you turn your torque wrench back on the ratchet, what do you have: friction or your stiction...?

drlodge

meanredspider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

6Nm torque is 6Nm torque, I really don't think a tiy bit of friction on the threads is going to make that much difference to the pressure the carbon fibre sees.

What do you think it is that stops the bolt coming undone again? Ah yes, that tiny bit of friction

Yes, its called stiction friction, a different kind of friction to when the bolt is rotating upon tightening.

So, as you turn your torque wrench back on the ratchet, what do you have: friction or your stiction...?

That would be stiction, since the bolt is not turning. You typically need more torque to turn a stationary bolt and get it moving (overcoming the stiction friction) , compared to the usual friction once the bolt is turning.

Same princple when you lock up your car tyres, you can brake harder while the wheels are turning, compared to when the wheels are locked and "sliding" over the ground. Maximum decelleration occurs just before the wheels lock up.

meanredspider

drlodge wrote:

That would be stiction, since the bolt is not turning. You typically need more torque to turn a stationary bolt and get it moving (overcoming the stiction friction) , compared to the usual friction once the bolt is turning.

Same princple when you lock up your car tyres, you can brake harder while the wheels are turning, compared to when the wheels are locked and "sliding" over the ground. Maximum decelleration occurs just before the wheels lock up.

Exactly - so what's the difference (in percentage terms will be fine) between the static and dynamic friction? How do you allow for that in your torque wrench? And, using your example of car tyres, what happens when you apply lubricant (diesel on a wet road, let's say) to the threshold of dynamic to static friction?

meanredspider

To save me spending the rest of the evening building this up from first principles, here's some helpful graphics:

drlodge

Hey, that's a really useful diagram, which makes me reconsider what I said.

The "torque" that's applies is a rotating force, and its dependent on those 3 factors - pre-load (the pressure being exerted on your carbon post/frame), thread friction and nut face friction. The pre-load is only 10%, so if some lubricant is applied to the threads and nut face and lets assume this friction is reduced to zero, then I guess for a given torque setting, you'd end up with 10x the amount of force (pre-load) on your carbon seat post?

If you apply threadlock, that will act as a lubricant in its liquid state so will allow a greater pre-load to be applied too.

On the point about stiction vs dynamic. Stiction is more than dynamic, I'm not sure by how much but I guess 10%-40%. So if you're using a torque wrench and the thing "clicks out" when turning, then it should "click out" immediatley when you stop and try turning again.

jgarpotter

Has anyone heard back from Westbrook Cycles about this offer at all? I emailed them twice but haven't heard anything from them.

I spoke to Cycle Division and they've sold out on this deal, aside from XS and S.

gabriel959

The offer is online again, Westbrook put in online on their Facebook page last night.

jgarpotter

gabriel959 wrote:

The offer is online again, Westbrook put in online on their Facebook page last night.

Ahh thanks for that! Found it cheers, hadn't liked them on Facebook.