Orange Hate

ej2320

Exactly ^
I wouldn't buy a bike if it was poorly made, however very few are (Excusing Halfords £70 bikes but at £70 you can expect it to snap)
If Orange pack up and make frames in Taiwan so be it, I don't care
If they made their prices competive or make the bike worth the money I'd consider buying one
My frame has a made in Taiwan sticker on it, it's been faultless.. Well made, Well priced and clean neat welding

Angus Young

Northwind wrote:

Loads of people say Britain doesn't make anything, actually we make more today than at any time in history (well- a wee slump because of the recession, we peaked momentarily in 2010). 7th or 8th biggest manufacturer in the world despite being only 22nd by population and 80th by size. Not too shabby.

Sort of. But... Much (most?) of that production is owned by foreign interests. Cars are an oft quoted success story and how we have a thriving motor industry in this country. What they joyous forget to mention is that we used to make cars for ourselves...

rockmonkeysc

Angus Young wrote:

Northwind wrote:

Loads of people say Britain doesn't make anything, actually we make more today than at any time in history (well- a wee slump because of the recession, we peaked momentarily in 2010). 7th or 8th biggest manufacturer in the world despite being only 22nd by population and 80th by size. Not too shabby.

Sort of. But... Much (most?) of that production is owned by foreign interests. Cars are an oft quoted success story and how we have a thriving motor industry in this country. What they joyous forget to mention is that we used to make cars for ourselves...

Is it better to make rubbish for companies like British Leyland, TVR, Rover etc or good quality cars for Honda, Nissan, BMW, Ford and General Motors?
It may be foreign companies but they provide jobs for British workers. Not just in their own factories but also the huge industry that has grown around them to make components, sub assemblies, develop technology and build and maintain production systems.

Kowalski675

Angus Young wrote:

What they joyous forget to mention is that we used to make cars for ourselves...

And most of them were shockingly dreadful.

rockmonkeysc

Kowalski675 wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

What they joyous forget to mention is that we used to make cars for ourselves...

And most of them were shockingly dreadful.

The Austin Princess was probably the highlight of the British motor industry before all the British manufacturers went bust.
I think the American motor industry is a perfect example of what happens when people buy to be patriotic rather than to get the best for their money. All American cars are crap, without any exceptions.

Northwind

YIMan wrote:

Buying the cheapest just because it's the cheapest is remarkably short-sighted.

Yep, if anyone in this thread was suggesting that, they'd be daft to.

rockmonkeysc

Can this thread get as long as the Canyon bikes thread?

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Is it better to make rubbish for companies like British Leyland, TVR, Rover etc or good quality cars for Honda, Nissan, BMW, Ford and General Motors?
It may be foreign companies but they provide jobs for British workers. Not just in their own factories but also the huge industry that has grown around them to make components, sub assemblies, develop technology and build and maintain production systems.

Kowalski675 wrote:

And most of them were shockingly dreadful.

You're both kinda missing the point there...

cooldad

Not at all. There's nothing to stop you investing in BMW, Ford, Microsoft, Apple or any other listed company, no matter where their head office is, because the head office is all that's really confined to a particular country.
Raw materials, components, labour, design, technology etc, are sourced wherever in the world makes the most sense.
It's not the 19th century any more.

Angus Young

cooldad wrote:

Not at all. There's nothing to stop you investing in BMW, Ford, Microsoft, Apple or any other listed company, no matter where their head office is, because the head office is all that's really confined to a particular country.
Raw materials, components, labour, design, technology etc, are sourced wherever in the world makes the most sense.
It's not the 19th century any more.

Except, that wasn't the point they made.

rockmonkeysc

Angus Young wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Is it better to make rubbish for companies like British Leyland, TVR, Rover etc or good quality cars for Honda, Nissan, BMW, Ford and General Motors?
It may be foreign companies but they provide jobs for British workers. Not just in their own factories but also the huge industry that has grown around them to make components, sub assemblies, develop technology and build and maintain production systems.

Kowalski675 wrote:

And most of them were shockingly dreadful.

You're both kinda missing the point there...

So in what way would it be better if they were British companies?

Kowalski675

cooldad wrote:

It's not the 19th century any more.

It is in Halifax...

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

So in what way would it be better if they were British companies?

It's about strength in a global market.

ej2320

YIMan wrote:

Northwind wrote:

YIMan wrote:

The uneducated consumer buys the cheapest regardless of what sweatshop it may be made in.

Obviously the educated consumer buys expensive, inferior products with poor customer service and short warranties because it was made in their country?

Your words, not mine.

Buying the cheapest just because it's the cheapest is remarkably short-sighted. It applies to everything, not just bikes. People go for the cheapest at the time and then wonder why after a few years they have no local shops and whenever they ring up their energy/tv/phone supplier they speak to someone in India.

People need to wake up and smell the roses and realise that short term gain behaviour can lead to long term loss.

Slating a successful British company on the Internet with made up parochial tales of woe says more about the people chucking the stones than it does about Orange as a bike/brand/company/owners club.

I don't buy the cheapest because it's the cheapest.. but if I can get something that does the job just as well for less I'll buy it
I can get a perfectly good Covert frame that's rated higher than Orange, so why would I buy the Orange?

rockmonkeysc

Angus Young wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

So in what way would it be better if they were British companies?

It's about strength in a global market.

I think you're missing the point here my old fruit. It's not the 80's anymore. Things have changed.

cooldad

Angus Young wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

So in what way would it be better if they were British companies?

It's about strength in a global market.

You don't get strength by being uncompetitive, even if some misguided nationalists buy your crud.

adamfo

Mountain bikes are classed as luxury lifestyle items. Such items are not bought just because they are cheap. With such items brand image is key. Specialized have built up a strong brand and as such can command high prices with people paying a premium to buy into the brand. Demand is inelastic IE. a price increase will have little effect on sales. A nice position to be in as most of their product is sourced in lower cost countries.
In past times Orange also built up a brand but appear unable to exploit it by introducing new product. For example, the Five 29er is a rehash of old ideas. It's also way overweight at it's price point.

Angus Young

Here's a clue, guys, as you obviously don't get it: How many companies the size of, say, Toyota does Britain have, bestriding the world and having every other country in the world falling over themselves to offer incentives for us to place our manufacturing on their soil?

ej2320

adamfo wrote:

Mountain bikes are classed as luxury lifestyle items. Such items are not bought just because they are cheap. With such items brand image is key. Specialized have built up a strong brand and as such can command high prices with people paying a premium to buy into the brand. Demand is inelastic IE. a price increase will have little effect on sales. A nice position to be in as most of their product is sourced in lower cost countries.
In past times Orange also built up a brand but appear unable to exploit it by introducing new product. For example, the Five 29er is a rehash of old ideas. It's also way overweight at it's price point.

Agree with most of this..
But I wouldn't get a Spesh for the brand but more for the proven design and reliability, which is kinda related but I wouldn't get it cause it has spesh printing on it
Then again I wouldn't buy a spesh because I prefer the less talked about brands but that's just me, would happily take a spesh for a good price though

rockmonkeysc

Angus Young wrote:

Here's a clue, guys, as you obviously don't get it: How many companies the size of, say, Toyota does Britain have, bestriding the world and having every other country in the world falling over themselves to offer incentives for us to place our manufacturing on their soil?

You would be surprised. There are an aweful lot of huge, multi national, multi billion pound uk manufacturers making boring items such as valves, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, mining equipment, structural components, ships, electric motors.
Just because we dont make terrible cars any more doesn't mean British manufacturing is dead.

Northwind

Also, the british car industry didn't fail because everyone went and bought foreign cars purely on price. It failed because we were making a load of rubbish and charging a lot for it.

Orange fanbois can be touchy but if I'd paid the £2300 RRP for my 224 Evo frame, with its on-the-piss welding, ropey suspension, and oops-missed-a-bit paint job, not to mention the design-flaw headstock plates that dent on every bike, and the taste for cracking just about everywhere... Well, I'd have driven to Yorkshire and gone on a murdering spree frankly. I like it, it's great fun to ride but you had to be mentally ill to buy a new one.

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

Also, the british car industry didn't fail because everyone went and bought foreign cars purely on price. It failed because we were making a load of rubbish and charging a lot for it.

On the two days per week that they weren't on strike.

Clank

Anyone ever heard of some little British outfit called 'BP'?

Bigger than Toyota.

Just sayin'.

adamfo

Angus Young wrote:

Here's a clue, guys, as you obviously don't get it: How many companies the size of, say, Toyota does Britain have, bestriding the world and having every other country in the world falling over themselves to offer incentives for us to place our manufacturing on their soil?

I suggest you buy a copy of the Financial Times. There are plenty of British multi-nationals manufacturing or operating abroad. Here are some:

The world's third-largest construction equipment manufacturer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Bamford

The World's largest producer of spirits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diageo

The world's largest advertising group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WPP_plc

The World's second largest defence contractor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems

The world's fourth-largest pharmaceutical company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlaxoSmithKline

The Worlds biggest oil company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Dutch_Shell

and so on..... admit you are wrong !

stubs

Clank wrote:

Anyone ever heard of some little British outfit called 'BP'?

Bigger than Toyota.

Just sayin'.

Except BP isnt really British anymore its more a US company now.

stubs

Kowalski675 wrote:

Northwind wrote:

Also, the british car industry didn't fail because everyone went and bought foreign cars purely on price. It failed because we were making a load of rubbish and charging a lot for it.

On the two days per week that they weren't on strike.

A mates Dad worked at Fords Halewood and he reckons during the 70s the only times there wasnt industrial action somewhere in the plant was the 2 week shutdown in August and the 2 weeks before Xmas payday.

Kowalski675

Sounds about right.

adamfo

stubs wrote:

Clank wrote:

Anyone ever heard of some little British outfit called 'BP'?

Bigger than Toyota.

Just sayin'.

Except BP isnt really British anymore its more a US company now.

They are a multi-national. The same can be said about companies like Mercedes whose largest shareholder is a middle-eastern wealth fund and they have factories in 24 different countries including the UK.

Angus Young

adamfo wrote:

They are a multi-national.

Shall we cross that one off your impressive list, then?

If you want to know where we are on the world stage you only have to look at the air of desperation that surrounded our recent visit to China.

Mojo_666

You should all STFU and go ride your bikes.