TDF 2013 Stage 15 - Ventoux *Spoilers*
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oldwelshman wrote:Stuff...
You may be old, Welsh and a man, but please accept this sloppy smacker of appreciation from me...
The negative sniping is in danger of outweighing the celebration in these pages...
Has Rundfart always been like the John Goodman character in Big Lebowski, or is this a new thing? And has he had the baton passed from DennisN?.
To paraphrase and invert whoever it was who said "for evil to flourish all it needs is for good men to do nothing"': for common sense to prevail, how about a bit more intolerance of the dickheads...?0 -
You constantly harp on about your years of experience, riders and DS's you know and that your a sceptic about performances that are suspicious but do not post any data to back up your suspicions and from what I saw from yesterdays stage I did not see anything extraordinary.Rundfahrt wrote:Hey oldwelshman, can you please point out where I have ever posted what you quoted me as saying?
I would also like to point out that the comments by most of us about Froome's ugly attacks are merely taking the wee-wee about his riding style, something many people do in the cycling word. The guy looks like a daddy long legs spider humping a bike for gods sake!
Froomes attacks to drop Quintana did not work initially and he was reeled back wice before finally getting away. Am sure in a year or wo that Quintana will hang on and probably drop Froome once or twice, but then again you have doubts about Qunitana. O akso doubts about Cancellara.
I have a question for you, is there anyone you do not doubt in peloton as being a doper?
I thought yesterday stage was great, not just becuase Froome won but also from other attacks by Quintana, Nieve, work being done by team mates such as Peter K and Porte( I guess Peter K systematic doper under control of BCF?) and for the gutsy ride by Tenam, Mollema and Kreuizeger to get back up to the lead group.
I hope the remaining spoilers will be more about the actual race than trolling.
I hope Froome wins the Alpe stage with a gap of 10 minutes like Landis did before, we may hit 100 pages for spoiler then, and maybe even FF may comliment Froome on his panache and attacking riding, I bet FF was spitting teeth watching his beloved steak eater being dropped so easily, but I suspect AC will improve as week goes on to get 2nd although Kreuzeger has looked better early on in the tour.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:
You constantly harp on about your years of experience, riders and DS's you know and that your a sceptic about performances that are suspicious but do not post any data to back up your suspicions and from what I saw from yesterdays stage I did not see anything extraordinary.Rundfahrt wrote:Hey oldwelshman, can you please point out where I have ever posted what you quoted me as saying?
I would also like to point out that the comments by most of us about Froome's ugly attacks are merely taking the wee-wee about his riding style, something many people do in the cycling word. The guy looks like a daddy long legs spider humping a bike for gods sake!
Froomes attacks to drop Quintana did not work initially and he was reeled back wice before finally getting away. Am sure in a year or wo that Quintana will hang on and probably drop Froome once or twice, but then again you have doubts about Qunitana. O akso doubts about Cancellara.
I have a question for you, is there anyone you do not doubt in peloton as being a doper?
I thought yesterday stage was great, not just becuase Froome won but also from other attacks by Quintana, Nieve, work being done by team mates such as Peter K and Porte( I guess Peter K systematic doper under control of BCF?) and for the gutsy ride by Tenam, Mollema and Kreuizeger to get back up to the lead group.
I hope the remaining spoilers will be more about the actual race than trolling.
I hope Froome wins the Alpe stage with a gap of 10 minutes like Landis did before, we may hit 100 pages for spoiler then, and maybe even FF may comliment Froome on his panache and attacking riding, I bet FF was spitting teeth watching his beloved steak eater being dropped so easily, but I suspect AC will improve as week goes on to get 2nd although Kreuzeger has looked better early on in the tour.
I did not know mentioning my background two three times to put something in context (something that does not even say anyone is doping or comment negatively on a poster) is "constantly harp(ing)." Most would say it is not...unless they are here to stir things up.
I note you make no mention of Froome's seated Cav impression to drop everyone who was left in the small group. Could that be because it doesn't fit your agenda? Personally, based on what Movistar has done since Valverde got dropped by Belkin when he had his flat, I think Movistar and Sky have a deal, ,work together to help Froome win, Quintana get on the podium and screw over Belkin. Froome puts in a couple of attacks, but none with the ferocity of his drive to drop Contador. Constantly on the radio, perhaps hearing something like "let him come back, we need to help him so Movistar helps us more."
It's amusing how you keep going back to calling me a troll, yet never mention the Sky fans blatant trolling and, most amusingly, your own trolling here. Go back to the stage thread and see how often I post about the stage, non-doping, and have someone go after me, much like you are doing here. Best to ignore the parts that don't fit....right?
Is their anything else you would like to discuss? Perhaps cycling without the attacks insults, false claims and well, you know?
Oops, almost forgot, nice job trying to get me away from the fact that I never said what you attempted to make look like a quote directly from me.0 -
How is it possible for someone to type so much without actually saying anything new?0
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durhamwasp wrote:Anybody got a link to the photos of David Millar giving his cap to Tom Simpson?
Haven`t seen one but if I do I will post it.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:oldwelshman wrote:
You constantly harp on about your years of experience, riders and DS's you know and that your a sceptic about performances that are suspicious but do not post any data to back up your suspicions and from what I saw from yesterdays stage I did not see anything extraordinary.Rundfahrt wrote:Hey oldwelshman, can you please point out where I have ever posted what you quoted me as saying?
I would also like to point out that the comments by most of us about Froome's ugly attacks are merely taking the wee-wee about his riding style, something many people do in the cycling word. The guy looks like a daddy long legs spider humping a bike for gods sake!
Froomes attacks to drop Quintana did not work initially and he was reeled back wice before finally getting away. Am sure in a year or wo that Quintana will hang on and probably drop Froome once or twice, but then again you have doubts about Qunitana. O akso doubts about Cancellara.
I have a question for you, is there anyone you do not doubt in peloton as being a doper?
I thought yesterday stage was great, not just becuase Froome won but also from other attacks by Quintana, Nieve, work being done by team mates such as Peter K and Porte( I guess Peter K systematic doper under control of BCF?) and for the gutsy ride by Tenam, Mollema and Kreuizeger to get back up to the lead group.
I hope the remaining spoilers will be more about the actual race than trolling.
I hope Froome wins the Alpe stage with a gap of 10 minutes like Landis did before, we may hit 100 pages for spoiler then, and maybe even FF may comliment Froome on his panache and attacking riding, I bet FF was spitting teeth watching his beloved steak eater being dropped so easily, but I suspect AC will improve as week goes on to get 2nd although Kreuzeger has looked better early on in the tour.
I did not know mentioning my background two three times to put something in context (something that does not even say anyone is doping or comment negatively on a poster) is "constantly harp(ing)." Most would say it is not...unless they are here to stir things up.
I note you make no mention of Froome's seated Cav impression to drop everyone who was left in the small group. Could that be because it doesn't fit your agenda? Personally, based on what Movistar has done since Valverde got dropped by Belkin when he had his flat, I think Movistar and Sky have a deal, ,work together to help Froome win, Quintana get on the podium and screw over Belkin. Froome puts in a couple of attacks, but none with the ferocity of his drive to drop Contador. Constantly on the radio, perhaps hearing something like "let him come back, we need to help him so Movistar helps us more."
It's amusing how you keep going back to calling me a troll, yet never mention the Sky fans blatant trolling and, most amusingly, your own trolling here. Go back to the stage thread and see how often I post about the stage, non-doping, and have someone go after me, much like you are doing here. Best to ignore the parts that don't fit....right?
Is their anything else you would like to discuss? Perhaps cycling without the attacks insults, false claims and well, you know?
Oops, almost forgot, nice job trying to get me away from the fact that I never said what you attempted to make look like a quote directly from me.
1) "everyone" = one person. Porte dropped the rest of them when he took up the pace on the front.
2) Oddly enough Froome was probably quite tired near the top.. but I can't possibly imagine why his attacks were less ferocious :roll:
3) Everyone else has a radio too.. and yes Froome did ask Quintana to work with him when he caught up? Why does that matter.. its something that happens all the time in bike racing.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:durhamwasp wrote:Anybody got a link to the photos of David Millar giving his cap to Tom Simpson?
Haven`t seen one but if I do I will post it.
He didn't place it himself, he gave it to someone at the side to place it, who then sent a picture to Fran Millar, who posted it on twitter.
http://twitter.com/franmillar/status/35 ... 00/photo/1Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:
On the ITV highlights they showed a screenshot of Millar handing his cap to the roadside. Haven't seen a photograph....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
@willfoth: Tim Kerrison makes the point that Froome does what he did on Ventoux every other day in training http://t.co/eYK4JtPQgf via @guardian0
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No tA Doctor wrote:frenchfighter wrote:durhamwasp wrote:Anybody got a link to the photos of David Millar giving his cap to Tom Simpson?
Haven`t seen one but if I do I will post it.
He didn't place it himself, he gave it to someone at the side to place it, who then sent a picture to Fran Millar, who posted it on twitter.
http://twitter.com/franmillar/status/35 ... 00/photo/1
Nice, ty.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Slim Boy Fat wrote:@willfoth: Tim Kerrison makes the point that Froome does what he did on Ventoux every other day in training http://t.co/eYK4JtPQgf via @guardian
Maybe so. A `bit` different conditions though.
In addition, most attacks that take people into the red zone like that mean they eventually get caught. Not add ridiculous time into their opponents. From the looks of things, he can ride faster than everyone else at a constant pace and on top of that intersperse it with multiple red zone efforts with no drop off in the constant pace. Quality stuff.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Maybe because he's been specifically training to do that for the past two years?frenchfighter wrote:Slim Boy Fat wrote:@willfoth: Tim Kerrison makes the point that Froome does what he did on Ventoux every other day in training http://t.co/eYK4JtPQgf via @guardian
Maybe so. A `bit` different conditions though.
In addition, most attacks that take people into the red zone like that mean they eventually get caught. Not add ridiculous time into their opponents. From the looks of things, he can ride faster than everyone else at a constant pace and on top of that intersperse it with multiple red zone efforts with no drop off in the constant pace. Quality stuff.0 -
I want to believe that Froome isn't doping but you can't say that it's not natural for his performance to arouse suspicion.
We can say that he has trained all year to perform like this, but that implies that somehow Contador et al have not been training properly which is the sort of thing we used to hear from Armstrong (you know that Nike ad with the "what am I on" statement).
Froome might really be clean, and he might be leaving these other riders behind because their previous performances were somewhat enhanced. But I really would not be especially shocked if it did turn out he was on something he shouldn't be. What I would be very, very surprised to learn is that Brailsford and BC are in anyway involved - surely they have far too much to lose as it would call into question the performance of the olympic cycling team etc. It would be one of the biggest scandals to ever hit sport in this country.<a><img></a>0 -
So that implies that every sportsman or women should finish in a dead heat every time they compete because they all train hard? Do people not realise how ridiculous this 'they all train hard' statement is?PeteinSQ wrote:We can say that he has trained all year to perform like this, but that implies that somehow Contador et al have not been training properly which is the sort of thing we used to hear from Armstrong (you know that Nike ad with the "what am I on" statement).0 -
I agree that of course they shouldn't all be finishing in a dead heat, and that someone has to be the best. I'm not sure how much better is credible when you're racing against other highly talented athletes.
As I said, I want to believe he is clean, and I will certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. If he is clean then he is likely to win several tours and become a legend. Sadly because of people like Armstrong some people will always suspect him of being a doper, which is the very reason why Armstrong has done so much damage to the sport.<a><img></a>0 -
"Ridiculous time"? 30s on Quintana and barely 90s on Contador (and Nieve/Rodriguez) over 7k? If he'd swanned away from Quintana as easily as he did Contador and then proceeded to put 5+ minutes into everyone you might have a point, but this sort of constant exaggeration isn't helping your argument at all. Did you even watch the stage? The gap back to Contador actually increased very slowly for a long time after he made the initial attack at around 7k and caught up with Quintana. At around 5.5k the gap was barely 20s. 2k later it was roughly 30s. When Froome left Quintana at ~1.5k I think it was still only 50s. Contador must also have slowed a bit in the last 1-2k, as shown by the fact he finished behind Nieve and Rodriguez.frenchfighter wrote:Slim Boy Fat wrote:@willfoth: Tim Kerrison makes the point that Froome does what he did on Ventoux every other day in training http://t.co/eYK4JtPQgf via @guardian
Maybe so. A `bit` different conditions though.
In addition, most attacks that take people into the red zone like that mean they eventually get caught. Not add ridiculous time into their opponents. From the looks of things, he can ride faster than everyone else at a constant pace and on top of that intersperse it with multiple red zone efforts with no drop off in the constant pace. Quality stuff.0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
As a reference point can we please have a table of acceptable time gains for any given stage so that we know when something should be classed as 'ridiculous'? I would have said from past experience that you are looking at a minimum of a couple of minutes but others seem to think it's 30 - 60 seconds.0
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Contador is the Greatest0 -
Proof positive that Quintana has the best poker face in the peleton. Not even a flicker! One of the moments of the tour for me, thanks for posting FF.0
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Pross wrote:As a reference point can we please have a table of acceptable time gains for any given stage so that we know when something should be classed as 'ridiculous'? I would have said from past experience that you are looking at a minimum of a couple of minutes but others seem to think it's 30 - 60 seconds.
I can see what you are getting at here but from a position of total ignorance of these matters I would guess that there are just far too many variables to construct any reference that would be of use (temperature; current gradient; previous length & profile of race, how well either rider had eaten / drunk; how much pacing each had been given, etc, etc)0 -
Froboz wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Who wants to bet that Sagan has 10 fans for every 1 that Froome has? Probably being generous there too.
More probably. Sagan is awesome.
Ah, bless, I bet the thought makes you both very pleased. Winning the Yellow jersey will probably help Froome rise above the petty comments. :roll: :roll: :roll:0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:mike6 wrote:
I want to see the TDF, cos love pro cycling and also believe the vast majority of them are clean. If I didnt think that I would watch another sport. I dont see the point of involvement in something if all you want to do is denigrate the athletes. With the new testing, biological passports, etc it is much more difficult to cheat. Ask Contador, he had a tiny amount of a banned substance in his body but it was picked up. Froome is making EX proven dopers struggle.
1) How do you know the vast majority are clean? Is it cleaner? Yes, but since you have no idea what is available to use, no idea of current methods, are not in the pro peloton and don't really know what it was totally like in the past you can't possibly say that and be serious.
2) If you really were giving up on sports that were dirty you never would have gotten into cycling and you would have no other sports to watch. Even amateurs dope in sports these day. Every sport has doping issues.
3) I don't denigrate the athletes, I question the performances. Huge difference. I watch the sport, because I love the show, I love being able to relate to the pain and suffering. While I may not be able to ride the pave as fast as Cancellara (who I have suspicions about) I can ride to my limits on them and wake up sore the next day. I may not be able to TT like Martin but I can ride to my limit with strings of spittle hanging out of my mouth and tunnel vision. I can ride a race in a peloton and fight to be near the front, use excellent skill to avoid the crash in front of me, destroy the field descending at 63 mph. It's a thing of beauty and I can do it to, at my own level. Just as I love other sports despite knowing there is doping. I love that I can play soccer in a local league and curl a free kick into the upper corner, it may not be at the old Wembley and it might not be Kahn in the net, but I can do it at my own level. As a matter of fact the fact that I am willing to question and not just accept that they are clean without question simply shows how much I love the sport.
4) It is more difficult to cheat...using the methods of the past. Just as it was more difficult to cheat in 2005 then in the 90's. Unfortunately the dopers are ahead of the game so instead of filling up on EPO they microdose, instead of EPO they went bag to real blood. It goes on and on, but there is always an advance in doping and, as has been stated by a number of ex-dopers, getting caught is more about being stupid then doping.Come from nowhere???? Like finishing second in two GTs so far. He is now the right age to peak, If you open your biased eyes.(I wont stoop to personal abuse but it is obviously your bag If someone has a different opinion to you.)
1) Second in two GT's in less then a year. It's not like we are talking about a guy who finished 75, 35, 10, 2, 2 in GT's, showing even growth. Interesting that you stuck to that and didn't touch the idea that he is now the best climber in the world, one of the best TT men and can ride the cross winds with the best (when paying attention).
2) Stoop to my personal abuse?!?! That's a laugh considering how much personal I abuse I receive and how little I have dished out. I guess when you are blindly flailing this is the easiest route to take.So you would accept Sagan? He has come from nowhere in the last two to three years, same as Froome, only without the GT results pedigree.
It's easier to accept a young rider who is very good at one day races then someone who is good at GT's. If you know about blood vector doping you would understand why this is. I think the biggest difference for me is that I have seen Sagan improve each year by increments. He wasn't just an ok rider who is suddenly the best sprinter, a great climber and TT man. He gets blown out in big mountain stages and rarely out sprints the big dogs. His forte is smaller group sprints and hilly terrain.Quintana? Where are your doubts concerning him???
I have doubts about all of the Columbians. The country does not have the financial or cycling infrastructure to be suddenly producing so many great riders who have spent most of their time in Columbia.And if we are going to play the "how long I have been following cycling" hand, not that it makes any difference, I have been riding bikes and watching racing since the lats 70s. I am a qualified athletics endurance coach with 22 years experience, so I understand athletes and how they mature and peak.
Excellent then you should be a sceptic just like I am and should understand that endurance athletes do not suddenly spring up making huge gains in short periods of time and start dominating at various distances and events. I would think, if this was true, you would be discussing this topic with me and understanding where I am coming from rather then trying to squelch all Sky doping talk.
Why on earth should I be just like you?? I am a "glass half full" guy, not a break the glass cos its not exactly how I like it. I am skeptical........about the proven dopers back in the peloton after a ban and the un repentant dopers like Contador,Valverdi etc. The rest?? They have done nothing wrong. I celebrate the athletic prowess of the best cyclists. They are aware, since the Armstrong outing, and the current re testing of old samples, that there is no escape if you dope, eventually it will catch up with you. You will lose all results and it will cost you financially. So, one would presume, that the vast majority will not want to take the risk.
You receive lots of personal abuse??? Not from me you don't. There again, perhaps if you looked at the tone of your posts you may find a reason for the bile of others.0 -
Wow I make two posts and I am a troll lol I don't have an agenda unlike you. I think I will leave it to others to decide who the troll is.Rundfahrt wrote:oldwelshman wrote:
You constantly harp on about your years of experience, riders and DS's you know and that your a sceptic about performances that are suspicious but do not post any data to back up your suspicions and from what I saw from yesterdays stage I did not see anything extraordinary.Rundfahrt wrote:Hey oldwelshman, can you please point out where I have ever posted what you quoted me as saying?
I would also like to point out that the comments by most of us about Froome's ugly attacks are merely taking the wee-wee about his riding style, something many people do in the cycling word. The guy looks like a daddy long legs spider humping a bike for gods sake!
Froomes attacks to drop Quintana did not work initially and he was reeled back wice before finally getting away. Am sure in a year or wo that Quintana will hang on and probably drop Froome once or twice, but then again you have doubts about Qunitana. O akso doubts about Cancellara.
I have a question for you, is there anyone you do not doubt in peloton as being a doper?
I thought yesterday stage was great, not just becuase Froome won but also from other attacks by Quintana, Nieve, work being done by team mates such as Peter K and Porte( I guess Peter K systematic doper under control of BCF?) and for the gutsy ride by Tenam, Mollema and Kreuizeger to get back up to the lead group.
I hope the remaining spoilers will be more about the actual race than trolling.
I hope Froome wins the Alpe stage with a gap of 10 minutes like Landis did before, we may hit 100 pages for spoiler then, and maybe even FF may comliment Froome on his panache and attacking riding, I bet FF was spitting teeth watching his beloved steak eater being dropped so easily, but I suspect AC will improve as week goes on to get 2nd although Kreuzeger has looked better early on in the tour.
I did not know mentioning my background two three times to put something in context (something that does not even say anyone is doping or comment negatively on a poster) is "constantly harp(ing)." Most would say it is not...unless they are here to stir things up.
I note you make no mention of Froome's seated Cav impression to drop everyone who was left in the small group. Could that be because it doesn't fit your agenda? Personally, based on what Movistar has done since Valverde got dropped by Belkin when he had his flat, I think Movistar and Sky have a deal, ,work together to help Froome win, Quintana get on the podium and screw over Belkin. Froome puts in a couple of attacks, but none with the ferocity of his drive to drop Contador. Constantly on the radio, perhaps hearing something like "let him come back, we need to help him so Movistar helps us more."
It's amusing how you keep going back to calling me a troll, yet never mention the Sky fans blatant trolling and, most amusingly, your own trolling here. Go back to the stage thread and see how often I post about the stage, non-doping, and have someone go after me, much like you are doing here. Best to ignore the parts that don't fit....right?
Is their anything else you would like to discuss? Perhaps cycling without the attacks insults, false claims and well, you know?
Oops, almost forgot, nice job trying to get me away from the fact that I never said what you attempted to make look like a quote directly from me.0 -
Nairo Quintana (Movistar): “I attacked because I saw that a lot of people were suffering and it was a terrain where few would be able to follow a strong pace. The main idea was to take back time in order to get closer to the podium; I knew that the white jersey would come with that attack and that, why not, I’d also be able to dream of a stage win. Unfortunately, Froome caught me later; he’s at a superior level to everybody. The first attack was from way behind and caught me off guard. I caught his wheel for as long as I could, and ended up going. He thought that I was stronger than I really was and we made a pact, a bit of a lie, because I could see how strong he was and I could fool him a little and hold on as long as I could hold on. We left it that if I arrived with him, I would win the stage, but he needed to take more time. I’m not at his level and even though he didn’t do what he said, I understand. I knew that I wouldn’t be able to hold on after another attack like that, so I got out of the saddle a little, took a good breath and tapped out nice rhythm to the finish line to minimize the time loss.”
Bauke Mollema (Belkin): “I don’t know if I’ve ever suffered as much as today. During the final 10 kilometers of the stage, my legs hurt beyond imagining. But with me was Ten Dam, who did a great job pacing me on the climb. Laurens was very strong and did agreat job. It’s possible to withstand a great quantity of suffering when you’re second in the GC.”
Laurens Ten Dam (Belkin): “I’m happy to have been able to support Bauke and I’m happy with the fact that we successfully defended our places in the GC. I felt very well on the Ventoux.Unfortunately, I couldn’t follow Froome, but that’s not a surprise. All this year he’s been too strong.”Contador is the Greatest0 -
Thanks for that FF - interesting quote from Quintana. Sounds like both Quintana and Froome were lying when they made their pact and they each knew the other was lying too.
I'd rather play poker against Froome than Quintana. You couldn't really tell at all from Quintana's face or body language that he was suffering.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:
What's he carrying here? I've seen this picture a few times ad can't work it out.
(Sorry if it's been posted before, I can't be bothered checking the other pages0 -
A stuffed wild boar under his arm with a missing leg. The missing leg is in his right handTakeTheHighRoad wrote:frenchfighter wrote:
What's he carrying here? I've seen this picture a few times ad can't work it out.
(Sorry if it's been posted before, I can't be bothered checking the other pages
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Haha amazing, what every fan needs at the side of the road0
