Sagan's antics and podium girls

frenchfighter

Some of you need to get an education.

I also pity your wifes and children if you have either if the views you express on here are expressed in real life and your actions reflect them.

Lightweights. I'd eat you for breakfast.

tailwindhome

10 pages.

WOW.

seanoconn

Abdoujaparov wrote:

To be fair, Sagan didn't just pinch a girl's ars* against her will (bad enough). He pinched a girl's ars* against her will in front of millions of people, including kids.

Also, I can't believe everyone doesn't find paying a woman to kiss someone who's won a bike race pretty f*cking lame. It's proper sad fellas, really 1930s.

Against her will? I wasn't aware the podium girl in question had made a statement? Or are you having a stab at a guess like a lot of other posts in this thread as to whether the pinch was or wasn't against her will?

Fine, condemn the guy for being a dick, but to make assumptions without the facts and to state 'it was sexual assault' ( mentioned in a couple of posts) is wrong, incorrect, counterfactual, imprecise, inaccurate and inappropriate.

mididoctors

Squirrelpie wrote:

Time for me to start reading the clinics sky thread beginning to end! I'm sure I will find sanctuary in that nuthouse after reading this thread.
There's so many balanced views there, not fed on media hype designed to sell stories. Just solid arguments based on facts. No one trying to impose there views on others. No attempt to create a better world (in their eyes) without foreseeing the consequences that reality brings.

Do gooder's / pc? Were does it end?

Its made a right mess of this country in the last 20 years.

but this media hyped world already exists in the status quo that is imposed on everyone. Its a false assertion that what we have is not effected by imposed choices.

you have a vast professional industry of PR using sexual sterotypes for its own end to such a ubiquitous degree people have come to accept it as a norm that has not been imposed. Where the reality is it is almost impossible to go anywhere with out being exposed to this stuff.

the whole world as it is is an imposition... probably always will be because we make it what it is. I do not agree with everything that we have made

I must agree that things have taken a very odd turn, especially the economic "empowerment" of the sub teenies who hassle their parents for consumer goods sold to them by commercial interests who lose no time exploiting the formative sexual feelings of children resulting in this bizarre sexualization of girls as young as 9 who aspire to this wag barbie doll/ porn actress look... a wave of STI's and teenage pregnancies is the pleasant outcome. "Its only a harmless bit of fun thou so its not imposed".

I don't think cycling loses anything by opting out of all of that to be honest, it may be no big deal and only partly connective but heh... why don't we just put that to bed

mididoctors

Dave_1 wrote:

women....I live in south east asia where women have a role I
understand...and I like lookers as much as the next man but do
strugglre to justify women's race ignored on tv and dolls
do men's podium

When this sort of geezer expresses this sort of opinion the whole notion of podium hotties looks pretty damm dated

Squirrelpie

neeb wrote:

Squirrelpie wrote:

No one trying to impose there views on others. No attempt to create a better world (in their eyes) without foreseeing the consequences that reality brings.

Do gooder's / pc? Were does it end?

Its made a right mess of this country in the last 20 years.

If everyone took that view we'd all still be hitting each other over the head with clubs, selling slaves and stoning women for adultery. And we wouldn't have things such as the NHS which the Americans are opposing their possible version of right now for reasons similar to the ones you are giving.

Strange how by merely stating views (even ones which most reasonable people would agree with) you are somehow "imposing" them if the audience happens to disagree.

If anything has made a mess of things in the U.K. over the past 20 years it's political and moral apathy, which has made politics the sole concern of the political classes and completely divorced from people's lives.

20 Years ago people were not hitting each other with clubs, and they weren't 25,000 years ago.
On stoning etc, it was and still is the culture in some countries. Right or wrong, what is right and wrong? Cultural perception? individual perception? Religious perception? All of these?

Unfortunately our NHS doesn't have the funding to support the 63 million and everyone else who seems to be able to come over and abuse it. People from the US would be appalled by our NHS as it lags behind there system in terms of technology and professionalism. Hence they are scared of getting the same deal as us. USA does have the capacity to run a successful version though.

There has been some ridiculous arguing over what Sagan did. But the bottom line is almost every single person agreed it was wrong. Yet ten pages on and it still going, because some want the guy burning at the stake.
The press will do that and have started already. Race organizers and the UCI will be taking a serious line with him and so will his team. We don't need to chase him down the street with pitch forks and burning torches.

neeb

Squirrelpie wrote:

20 Years ago people were not hitting each other with clubs, and they weren't 25,000 years ago.
On stoning etc, it was and still is the culture in some countries. Right or wrong, what is right and wrong? Cultural perception? individual perception? Religious perception? All of these?

Well, that's what moral philosophy is for, it's been a knotty subject for at least 2500 years.. Your view could be defined as relativist. I like to be optimistic and believe that most human beings, when given sufficient resources and education to see through deep rooted cultural prejudices, can agree on a core set of "rights" and "wrongs" that would include, amongst other things, social equality and respect for women.

Squirrelpie wrote:

Unfortunately our NHS doesn't have the funding to support the 63 million and everyone else who seems to be able to come over and abuse it. People from the US would be appalled by our NHS as it lags behind there system in terms of technology and professionalism. Hence they are scared of getting the same deal as us. USA does have the capacity to run a successful version though.

For all the complaining and occasional hiccups it still works pretty well and is available to all. Comparisons with the U.S. are misleading because while people with the best insurance may have more options available, a large part of the population is less fortunate. Also I don't think the NHS lacks anything in professionalism compared to the U.S. The funding in the U.K. is distributed more rationally and favours the treatments that make the biggest difference to people's lives, while the private system in the U.S. often ends up wasting a lot of resources on pandering to people's neuroses.

Squirrelpie wrote:

There has been some ridiculous arguing over what Sagan did. But the bottom line is almost every single person agreed it was wrong. Yet ten pages on and it still going, because some want the guy burning at the stake.
The press will do that and have started already. Race organizers and the UCI will be taking a serious line with him and so will his team. We don't need to chase him down the street with pitch forks and burning torches.

Except that they didn't! The opinion in a large number of the posts above seems to be that it wasn't wrong, or was so trivial as not to warrant comment. I agree though that demonising a young guy of Sagan's age for a foolish and immature mistake is way over the top.

alihisgreat

For all the complaining and occasional hiccups it still works pretty well and is available to all. Comparisons with the U.S. are misleading because while people with the best insurance may have more options available, a large part of the population is less fortunate. Also I don't think the NHS lacks anything in professionalism compared to the U.S. The funding in the U.K. is distributed more rationally and favours the treatments that make the biggest difference to people's lives, while the private system in the U.S. often ends up wasting a lot of resources on pandering to people's neuroses.

ermm.. don't know where you got that idea from.. but no it doesn't work well.

The standard of care in some hospitals is appalling and completely unacceptable.

Squirrelpie

Humans are just animals who seem to think that they can change the world for the better yet they do more harm.
Sexuality is part of us all and it cant be suppressed. We can educate but even that has its problems, look at what Hitlers education did to a generation. Experience counts for far more. I'm sure Sagan will learn more from the backlash than any education thrown at him.

The NHS is a good idea but funding is a problem and will continue to be as long as the UK is unable to generate wealth from within and stays within the country. The US system is unfair but benefits those who put in ours benefit those who don't and provides less value to those who do.

neeb

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

ermm.. don't know where you got that idea from.. but no it doesn't work well.

The standard of care in some hospitals is appalling and completely unacceptable.

Yes, there are some bad examples but It's all relative. The figures show that the U.K. does as well as most other European countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Europe

O.K., this is from a few years ago but the picture now won't be different by an order of magnitude.

You get bad hospitals and failures in health care everywhere. Where the U.K. excels is value for money - you may scoff, but if you look into the evidence this is well established. The standard of care we have in the U.K. given the money spent on it is the envy of the world.

RideOnTime

mididoctors wrote:

Squirrelpie wrote:

Time for me to start reading the clinics sky thread beginning to end! I'm sure I will find sanctuary in that nuthouse after reading this thread.
There's so many balanced views there, not fed on media hype designed to sell stories. Just solid arguments based on facts. No one trying to impose there views on others. No attempt to create a better world (in their eyes) without foreseeing the consequences that reality brings.

Do gooder's / pc? Were does it end?

Its made a right mess of this country in the last 20 years.

but this media hyped world already exists in the status quo that is imposed on everyone. Its a false assertion that what we have is not effected by imposed choices.

you have a vast professional industry of PR using sexual sterotypes for its own end to such a ubiquitous degree people have come to accept it as a norm that has not been imposed. Where the reality is it is almost impossible to go anywhere with out being exposed to this stuff.

the whole world as it is is an imposition... probably always will be because we make it what it is. I do not agree with everything that we have made

I must agree that things have taken a very odd turn, especially the economic "empowerment" of the sub teenies who hassle their parents for consumer goods sold to them by commercial interests who lose no time exploiting the formative sexual feelings of children resulting in this bizarre sexualization of girls as young as 9 who aspire to this wag barbie doll/ porn actress look... a wave of STI's and teenage pregnancies is the pleasant outcome. "Its only a harmless bit of fun thou so its not imposed".

I don't think cycling loses anything by opting out of all of that to be honest, it may be no big deal and only partly connective but heh... why don't we just put that to bed

eek

EKIMIKE

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

ermm.. don't know where you got that idea from.. but no it doesn't work well.

The standard of care in some hospitals is appalling and completely unacceptable.

ermm.. compare that with the U.S. where the un-insured don't get any care at all or if they do, it bankrupts them.

The notion that access to health care should be dependent on someone's wealth is appalling and completely unacceptable.

The fact that insurance providers can then make a profit out the situation is frankly sickening. It is a system that essentially prioritises business profits (thus wages and personal wealth) over health.

mroli

Squirrelpie wrote:

But the bottom line is almost every single person agreed it was wrong. Yet ten pages on and it still going, because some want the guy burning at the stake.

Don't think that's correct mate. Think a lot of people have been saying "oh, he's a young lad, from Eastern Europe, he's a professional sportsman, there was no harm, Podium Girls are dressed up to look pretty anyway - who cares?"

The reason it has gone to 10 pages is because people have been arguing about those attitudes. And then gone on to debate other things as a consequence.

Anyway - Sagan has apologised, appears contrite and that's probably where it should be left with regards to him.

TMR

neeb wrote:

So you call people's posts "lezzer, tree-hugging crap" and think that's not a little insulting? Maybe you expected me to come back and say "oh no it isn't"?

That comment clearly wasn't directed at you, but you chose to make it about you. You are not the moral Police, just for your information.

You mentioned limp-wristedness. Limp-wristed in my book is throwing around insults without backing them up. Anyone can say that something is crap, but why is it crap? Care to explain yourself?

You can disagree if you like, but don't be insulting about it if you can't back it up.

How would you like me to 'back it up'? I spent 14 years in the Army, 'backing it up' to me means lifting your fists up. I presume you mean debating; I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of my posts with you. If I have a view on something then I'll express it. I couldn't care less who I upset. Cry about it, get over it, or don't. I've said what I wanted to say and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

TMR

EKIMIKE wrote:

ermm.. compare that with the U.S. where the un-insured don't get any care at all or if they do, it bankrupts them.

Is that really true? There must be some provision surely?

The notion that access to health care should be dependent on someone's wealth is appalling and completely unacceptable.

Why? A person's access to any other service in life is dependent upon their wealth. Why should Health care be different?

seanoconn

The Mad Rapper wrote:

neeb wrote:

So you call people's posts "lezzer, tree-hugging crap" and think that's not a little insulting? Maybe you expected me to come back and say "oh no it isn't"?

That comment clearly wasn't directed at you, but you chose to make it about you. You are not the moral Police, just for your information.

You mentioned limp-wristedness. Limp-wristed in my book is throwing around insults without backing them up. Anyone can say that something is crap, but why is it crap? Care to explain yourself?

You can disagree if you like, but don't be insulting about it if you can't back it up.

How would you like me to 'back it up'? I spent 14 years in the Army, 'backing it up' to me means lifting your fists up. I presume you mean debating; I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of my posts with you. If I have a view on something then I'll express it. I couldn't care less who I upset. Cry about it, get over it, or don't. I've said what I wanted to say and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

I thought punching people in the Army was frowned on?

You may not be the best at reasoned debate........ But you are entertaining

salsiccia1

The Mad Rapper wrote:

neeb wrote:

So you call people's posts "lezzer, tree-hugging crap" and think that's not a little insulting? Maybe you expected me to come back and say "oh no it isn't"?

That comment clearly wasn't directed at you, but you chose to make it about you. You are not the moral Police, just for your information.

You mentioned limp-wristedness. Limp-wristed in my book is throwing around insults without backing them up. Anyone can say that something is crap, but why is it crap? Care to explain yourself?

You can disagree if you like, but don't be insulting about it if you can't back it up.

How would you like me to 'back it up'? I spent 14 years in the Army, 'backing it up' to me means lifting your fists up. I presume you mean debating; I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of my posts with you. If I have a view on something then I'll express it. I couldn't care less who I upset. Cry about it, get over it, or don't. I've said what I wanted to say and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

What a big man you are. You're my hero.

PeteinSQ

The Mad Rapper wrote:

The Guardian readers need to put their dildos away and quit bitching as well, I've never read such lezzer, tree-hugging crap in my life.

Wow, that quote marks you out as a bit of an inbred doesn't it? You've got a problem with lesbians I take it? Fascist.

Ben6899

The Mad Rapper wrote:

I spent 14 years in the Army...

It suddenly all falls into place.

seanoconn

PeteinSQ wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

The Guardian readers need to put their dildos away and quit bitching as well, I've never read such lezzer, tree-hugging crap in my life.

Wow, that quote marks you out as a bit of an inbred doesn't it? You've got a problem with lesbians I take it? Fascist.

Have you got a problem with inbreds!??

PeteinSQ

seanoconn wrote:

PeteinSQ wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

The Guardian readers need to put their dildos away and quit bitching as well, I've never read such lezzer, tree-hugging crap in my life.

Wow, that quote marks you out as a bit of an inbred doesn't it? You've got a problem with lesbians I take it? Fascist.

Have you got a problem with inbreds!??

Ha ha yes, they're more likely to suffer from genetic defects.

seanoconn

PeteinSQ wrote:

seanoconn wrote:

PeteinSQ wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

The Guardian readers need to put their dildos away and quit bitching as well, I've never read such lezzer, tree-hugging crap in my life.

Wow, that quote marks you out as a bit of an inbred doesn't it? You've got a problem with lesbians I take it? Fascist.

Have you got a problem with inbreds!??

Ha ha yes, they're more likely to suffer from genetic defects.

Fair enough

briantrumpet

neeb wrote:

You get bad hospitals and failures in health care everywhere. Where the U.K. excels is value for money - you may scoff, but if you look into the evidence this is well established. The standard of care we have in the U.K. given the money spent on it is the envy of the world.

If we were to take infant mortality rates as an indicator of successful healthcare, it's interesting that the US comes below the UK, if this table is correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ality_rate
(Incidentally this masks a mortality rate amongst black infants that is twice that of whites. Make of that what you will.)

Not great, if, according to the Guardian Data Blog, "The US has the highest health spending in the world - equivalent to 17.9% of its gross domestic product (GDP), or $8,362 per person." Compare that with UK, which "spends $3,480 per year on health" or 9.6% of GDP.

Of course, any system as complex as a healthcare system is going to have its fair share of variations and 'horror stories'. But, even with its problems, the NHS delivers remarkable outcomes, on average, at relatively low cost.

Now, I'm not sure how that fits into the story of Sagan and his antics... (but I wanted to say it anyway).

(Edited for superfluous apostrophe howler.)

neeb

The Mad Rapper wrote:

neeb wrote:

So you call people's posts "lezzer, tree-hugging crap" and think that's not a little insulting? Maybe you expected me to come back and say "oh no it isn't"?

That comment clearly wasn't directed at you, but you chose to make it about you. You are not the moral Police, just for your information.

Well, it seemed to be directed at me as the last poster to put forward vaguely feminist views, but if it wasn't then I'll happily take back the Daily Mail comment if nothing else.

The Mad Rapper wrote:

neeb wrote:

You mentioned limp-wristedness. Limp-wristed in my book is throwing around insults without backing them up. Anyone can say that something is crap, but why is it crap? Care to explain yourself?

You can disagree if you like, but don't be insulting about it if you can't back it up.

How would you like me to 'back it up'? I spent 14 years in the Army, 'backing it up' to me means lifting your fists up. I presume you mean debating; I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of my posts with you. If I have a view on something then I'll express it. I couldn't care less who I upset. Cry about it, get over it, or don't. I've said what I wanted to say and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

Fair enough, but in civilian society debate is how things are resolved, if it wasn't we'd need the Army more than we do. Debate is basically just explanation, it saves a lot of hassle.

On_What

bottles back in cages chaps

mididoctors

PeteinSQ wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Why? A person's access to any other service in life is dependent upon their wealth. Why should Health care be different?

We pay for all sorts of things out of general taxation -

like the army

PeteinSQ

Like the army indeed.

briantrumpet

The Mad Rapper wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

ermm.. compare that with the U.S. where the un-insured don't get any care at all or if they do, it bankrupts them.

Is that really true? There must be some provision surely?

Well, if Reuters is to believed, some 26,000 Americans died prematurely in 2010 alone, because "they lack health insurance".

TMR

seanoconn wrote:

I thought punching people in the Army was frowned on?

Officially yes, but like many things it goes on all the time. We'd either go behind the block (accommodation), or speak with a PTI and do it in the evening with gloves. Win some, lose some, but it was dealt with. None of this complaining to HR (or Mods :P ) nonsense you have in civilian life.

mroli

Ben6899 wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

I spent 14 years in the Army...

It suddenly all falls into place.

Isn't there a "classic" quote about FM Douglas Haig. When he announced he was going to go into the army, his teacher said: "Oh, there's no need for that, he's really quite bright"....