Sagan's antics and podium girls

frenchfighter

No one started a thread on it but there seemed to be a lot of opinions on both sides. It's probably worth starting a thread particularly now there is a Guardian article on it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... m-pinching

inkyfingers

Lots of people seem to be using this to have a bash at the whole idea of podium girls, but I think the two issues are separate. Sagan's behaviour was totally inappropriate and in most workplaces would have seen him in serious trouble.

Personally I have no problem with podium girls, those who dismiss it as sexism seem to forget that these women do this from choice and that it's part of their job, they are not victims. Everybody has a right to an opinion, but these women also have the right to choose what they do for a living. It amuses me that some feminists seem to want to "protect" women, by dictating what a woman should and shouldn't do, which personally I find deeply ironic.

* I don't like that word, but can't think of a better one.

frenchfighter

As usual the twitterati were up in arms about the issue.

To pick one. Hutch:
Shame that Peter Sagan has so much class on a bike and so very little off it
I have criticised the notion of podium girls on several occasions
When National TT organiser a few years ago solicited suggestions for improving event, most common suggestion was podium girls
Im a little surprised that probably 50% of the Sagan-ass-grabbing-gate replies I've got have been pro Sagan. (Maybe I shouldn't be.)
And probably half of those from women.
I find it hard to regard the treatment of women in cycling as being quite that trivial.

Alex Dowsett:
tirreno team time trial, (try saying that after a few) we all had a female lycra clad holder upper
Hutch:
I look forward to seeing you in pusher-off mode at the women's national TT in a few weeks...!
Dowsett:
gladly, ill marshal a local 10 in speedos this summer as well..

Peter Sagan @petosagan
Was not my intention to disrespect women today on the podium. Just a joke, sorry if someone was disturbed about it.

frenchfighter

inkyfingers wrote:

Lots of people seem to be using this to have a bash at the whole idea of podium girls, but I think the two issues are separate. Sagan's behaviour was totally inappropriate and in most workplaces would have seen him in serious trouble.

Personally I have no problem with podium girls, those who dismiss it as sexism seem to forget that these women do this from choice and that it's part of their job, they are not victims. Everybody has a right to an opinion, but these women also have the right to choose what they do for a living. It amuses me that some feminists seem to want to "protect" women, by dictating what a woman should and shouldn't do, which personally I find deeply ironic.

* I don't like that word, but can't think of a better one.

Agree that the two are separate and that the choice is the girls. An organiser can ask for podium girls but wont get any if those girls don't want to do it. And that applies to all sports and all sorts of other aspects. Banning podium girls is not a smart move. The actions of Sagan (he also pretended to do it in E3), are totally out of order.

tailwindhome

Such a big deal over nothing.

It was even described as 'sexual assault' of someone in their workplace.

If this is 'sexual assault' then every hen party were a waiter gets his arse grabbed also constitutes sexual assault.

slim_boy_fat

I wonder if anyone's stopped to ask the young lady what she thought of it.

inkyfingers

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

I wonder if anyone's stopped to ask the young lady what she thought of it.

None of the stories i've read have even mentioned her name.

specialgueststar

frenchfighter wrote:

As usual the twitterati were up in arms about the issue.


When National TT organiser a few years ago solicited suggestions for improving event, most common suggestion was podium girls
.

:roll:

surely make them safer

Tom BB

I mentioned it on the spoiler thread....was it sexist when Wiggo signed his name on that girls tits? Can't remember when it was, one of the TdF pre race signing on things? Their didn't seem to be a fuss kicked up then.

Sagan's actions were daft, but really is it such a big deal? The girl makes her money based on looking sexually desirable. I'm not a huge fan of the podium girl thing, but as far as I'm aware they are not forced to do it?

frenchfighter

Tom BB wrote:

I mentioned it on the spoiler thread....was it sexist when Wiggo signed his name on that girls tits? Can't remember when it was, one of the TdF pre race signing on things? Their didn't seem to be a fuss kicked up then.

Are you mixing up Wiggins with Sagan? Or were there two incidents?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUWakT8eu7I

tailwindhome

http://www.150wattsofawesome.blogspot.c ... world.html

ermintrude

Will you please stop using this ridiculous arguement that 'nobody makes them do it' . Podium girls belong back in the Savile era, when Sagans pinch would have probably raised no comment whatsoever. I would much prefer trophies presented by someone who has relevance to the event.

slim_boy_fat

ermintrude wrote:

Will you please stop using this ridiculous arguement that 'nobody makes them do it' . Podium girls belong back in the Savile era, when Sagans pinch would have probably raised no comment whatsoever. I would much prefer trophies presented by someone who has relevance to the event.

If they are happy to do it and get paid for it, should it matter what you think?

inkyfingers

I find the idea that we should stop having podium girls because it's old fashioned slightly puzzling. Do you also think the Tour of Flanders should be run along motorways because narrow cobbled roads are old fashioned?

adr82

TailWindHome wrote:

http://www.150wattsofawesome.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-butt-pinch-seen-round-world.html

"The general uproar defending the podium girl’s right to perform her job without being subjected to Mr. Sagan’s wandering hands clearly demonstrates the exact opposite of what everyone is shouting about." - that right there should be the end of this whole ridiculous discussion.

nevman

Dear Peter,

Tour of Qatar-think about it.Now grow up.

Tom BB

frenchfighter wrote:

Tom BB wrote:

I mentioned it on the spoiler thread....was it sexist when Wiggo signed his name on that girls tits? Can't remember when it was, one of the TdF pre race signing on things? Their didn't seem to be a fuss kicked up then.

Are you mixing up Wiggins with Sagan? Or were there two incidents?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUWakT8eu7I

I'm pretty sure that it was Wiggo-in my mind it was pretty race sign on and each team had a promo girl and Wiggo signed her boobs...Google isn't throwing up much though....other than Sagan doing it ffs! Maybe he is just a sexual deviant

frenchfighter

It is safe to say that Sagan has adolescent issues that he is having difficultly controlling. There are a fair few examples of this.

danlikesbikes

ermintrude wrote:

Will you please stop using this ridiculous arguement that 'nobody makes them do it' . Podium girls belong back in the Savile era, when Sagans pinch would have probably raised no comment whatsoever. I would much prefer trophies presented by someone who has relevance to the event.

Why? I think it is a fairly obvious statement. The girls are professional & paid quite often to look 'sexy' on the podium & often wear if not ridiculous sponsors outfits or tight spandex outfits. Their job is to stand there and kiss the winners & look pretty for the photos. Plus as at other races they are often paraded around the start line to hold promotional material wearing & standing looking rather provocatively at times.

I agree that they are outdated & I would prefer if they were not there, but to say its a ridiculous argument that nobody makes them do it is in itself ridiculous. Unless all podium girls are drugged when they go for an interview & prior to that have never seen a bike race & what is expected of them of course no body makes them do it.

Sagan was stupid to have done what he did & has apologised for his actions. If the podium girl herself was offended then I'm sure that he will also apologise to her too as I think he realises his actions have caused some offence.

Vino'sGhost

I quite like Podium girls, i judge the quality of an event by the quality of its podium girls (amongst other things) What a disappointment when someone gets PC and the local fat ginger boy gets to hand over the prize.

To the victor the spoils! I suspect a lot of the complaining is by guys who just never really got, or get the hotgirls.

I am very concerned by the use of champagne in celebrations, i think it sends out the wrong message to children and is also potentially offensive to muslims yet this use of alcohol is regularly used in any number of sports. Very disturbing indeed :evil:

Tom BB

Local fat ginger boy

I can't help thinking danlikesbikes that you're getting overly offended on the girls behalh-she sells herself as a product based on her looks....she is objectifying herself for money. Getting her spandex clad arise pinched by a 23 year old bloke is going to happen if you ask me. I'm not saying that it is right, but the nature of what she does leaves her open to this....and whilst it being a little daft, Sagan is hardly advocating a return to the 50's with that one action is he?

danlikesbikes

Tom BB wrote:

Local fat ginger boy

I can't help thinking danlikesbikes that you're getting overly offended on the girls behalh-she sells herself as a product based on her looks....she is objectifying herself for money. Getting her spandex clad arise pinched by a 23 year old bloke is going to happen if you ask me. I'm not saying that it is right, but the nature of what she does leaves her open to this....and whilst it being a little daft, Sagan is hardly advocating a return to the 50's with that one action is he?

Overly offended on her behalf? Far from it.

I think your miss reading my comments, or perhaps I did not make my thoughts as clear as I could.

I was responding to the comment 'Will you please stop using this ridiculous argument that 'nobody makes them do it'" & that it was in itself a ridiculous argument as she is a paid podium girl & might expect more male looks & possibly attraction from males (& females if they are into that sort of thing) due to her job.

Do I think they are outdated yes. Am I offended by them no. Am I offended on her behalf no as I've said she is a pro and whilst Sagan's actions were not brilliant, its not hard to see how it happened.

big_p

When people are thrust into the spot light, they do things that they would never do in the normal course of life, he is young (23 i think) and daft, he probably feels like the king of the world with his current form.
If we all think back to when we were that age, could we all say that we never made a mistake....... I doubt it.

In his mind, he probably thought it was just a cheeky thing to do (no pun intended) and i doubt his employers will even remember it next week, he's not paid to be politically correct, he's paid for his attitude and physique.

When he has the panache, age, experience and palmarès of Spartacus, maybe he'll look back and say "yes i was a d1ck" but i doubt that's what he's thinking right now.

Please don't take what i have said here as my defense of him, it's just my take on the situation, other views are available.

jane90

TailWindHome wrote:

Such a big deal over nothing.

It was even described as 'sexual assault' of someone in their workplace.

If this is 'sexual assault' then every hen party were a waiter gets his ars* grabbed also constitutes sexual assault.

I'm sorry, but this is just factually incorrect and good luck in a court of law if you proceed on the basis that it isn't.

As for the argument that I've seen trotted out here a couple of times that hen parties do it so it must be OK, if you just think about what you're saying you must surely see that this argument doesn't hold water. It's a sad fact that some women perpetrate domestic violence against their male partners, but does this excuse or justify a husband beating up his wife? No, of course not. Both instances are wrong.

jane90

I've also seen a lot of people trying to excuse Sagan's behaviour because of his age. He's 23, not 13. He's 6 months older than I am and if any of my contemporaries had done that to me anywhere, but especially in my place of work, I would have thrown the book at him.

frenchfighter

jane90 wrote:

I've also seen a lot of people trying to excuse Sagan's behaviour because of his age. He's 23, not 13. He's 6 months older than I am and if any of my contemporaries had done that to me anywhere, but especially in my place of work, I would have thrown the book at him.

I agree about the age. I had a mortgage by that age. There are soldiers at 15.

Tom Butcher

Tom BB wrote:

Local fat ginger boy

I can't help thinking danlikesbikes that you're getting overly offended on the girls behalh-she sells herself as a product based on her looks....she is objectifying herself for money. Getting her spandex clad arise pinched by a 23 year old bloke is going to happen if you ask me. I'm not saying that it is right, but the nature of what she does leaves her open to this....and whilst it being a little daft, Sagan is hardly advocating a return to the 50's with that one action is he?

You are right - she is objectifying herself for money and neanderthals who think like Sagan will take that as an invitation to treat them like he did yesterday - which is why it would be better if we just didn't bother with podium girls.

jane90

Tom BB wrote:

Local fat ginger boy

I can't help thinking danlikesbikes that you're getting overly offended on the girls behalh-she sells herself as a product based on her looks....she is objectifying herself for money. Getting her spandex clad arise pinched by a 23 year old bloke is going to happen if you ask me. I'm not saying that it is right, but the nature of what she does leaves her open to this....and whilst it being a little daft, Sagan is hardly advocating a return to the 50's with that one action is he?

This is an insidious and absolutely terrible argument.

Is the woman objectifying herself? Yes. Is she doing it for money? Yes. Does that constitute the women giving consent for a man to sexually assault her? Absolutely not. It's the same discredited argument that people used to use to justify rape - she was provocatively dressed, therefore she was asking for it.

blazing_saddles

A sad state of affairs when, on a cycling forum,
there are two pages of responses to this side show
and half a dozen posts (mostly from FF) on a major live racing event.

above_the_cows

jane90 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Such a big deal over nothing.

It was even described as 'sexual assault' of someone in their workplace.

If this is 'sexual assault' then every hen party were a waiter gets his ars* grabbed also constitutes sexual assault.

I'm sorry, but this is just factually incorrect and good luck in a court of law if you proceed on the basis that it isn't.

As for the argument that I've seen trotted out here a couple of times that hen parties do it so it must be OK, if you just think about what you're saying you must surely see that this argument doesn't hold water. It's a sad fact that some women perpetrate domestic violence against their male partners, but does this excuse or justify a husband beating up his wife? No, of course not. Both instances are wrong.

+1 Jane it is sexual assault. I know of instances where people have been prosecuted and convicted of such.

Excusing it with the usual whataboutery of 'what about the men' doesn't excuse or lessen the incident.

As to the issue of podium girls themselves as the most visible female objects in cycling, it does not create an environment that is overly welcoming to women. It says that women are fine as long as they are nothing more than pretty vassals their for the titilation of men, they are nameless, voiceless dolls.

That no one knows this woman's name is symptomatic of this. She was not a person. That Sagan's Neanderthal behaviour was condoned and promoted by the official organizers of the RVV speaks volumes about what those engaged in the running and promoting of the sport think about women. Is it any wonder we can't get TV coverage of one of the biggest women's races of the year if this is their attitude?

This explains the position rather well http://jezebel.com/5993100/cyclist-rising-star-peter-sagan-grabs-womans-ass-but-who-really-cares.

Thanks for starting the thread Frenchie.

inkyfingers

Blazing Saddles wrote:

A sad state of affairs when, on a cycling forum,
there are two pages of responses to this side show
and half a dozen posts (mostly from FF) on a major live racing event.

The forum just reflects its members interests. Basque country is pretty, but hardly seat of the pants stuff.