Sagan's antics and podium girls

powerbookboy

Tom Butcher wrote:

Tom BB wrote:

Local fat ginger boy

I can't help thinking danlikesbikes that you're getting overly offended on the girls behalh-she sells herself as a product based on her looks....she is objectifying herself for money. Getting her spandex clad arise pinched by a 23 year old bloke is going to happen if you ask me. I'm not saying that it is right, but the nature of what she does leaves her open to this....and whilst it being a little daft, Sagan is hardly advocating a return to the 50's with that one action is he?

You are right - she is objectifying herself for money and neanderthals who think like Sagan will take that as an invitation to treat them like he did yesterday - which is why it would be better if we just didn't bother with podium girls.

I'm completely in agreement that Sagan should keep his hands to himself, but I'm not sure we should be banning jobs because some people don't like what they represent.

We objectify and idolise genetically gifted individuals who happen to be athletes. What's so surprising that society also objectifies other genetically gifted people who happen to be pretty? No one tries to ban people from doing what they're good at because they're clever.

If the issue is that pretty girls acting as ornaments is sexist, then there are going to be a whole lot of people out of work from jobs where their looks are a valuable part of the work they do. Just as in the same way for some jobs physical strength is important, in others being clever is a critical part of it.

iainf72

Wow, been away, must've been a turd of a race.

If there had been a podium guy giving Canc a kiss and Sagan had pinched his butt, we'd all be in uproar about that too, right?

inkyfingers

iainf72 wrote:

Wow, been away, must've been a turd of a race.

If there had been a podium guy giving Canc a kiss and Sagan had pinched his butt, we'd all be in uproar about that too, right?

That's part of the problem with the "equality" thing.

A few years ago a guy I work with drunkenly grabbed a woman's bum at the office party, she complained, he got fired and his reputation damaged.

The very next year a woman in my office grabbed my arse in front of the whole office, all the women thought it was hilarious, i ignored it.

Squirrelpie

This is all ridiculous. He did it playing up to the cameras for god sake. He was not sexually assaulting her.
This is the big brother society going mad as usual.
It was inappropriate and a bad judgement call, but compering it to someone cornering a work college and groping them is stupid.

oneof1982

Squirrelpie wrote:

It was inappropriate and a bad judgement call, but compering it to someone cornering a work college and groping them is stupid.

Sorry that is exactly what he did.......

No place in cycling, and as for podium girls, I though they were there for the old pervs at the back Again. no place in cycling as far as I am concerned.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

Wow, been away, must've been a turd of a race.

If there had been a podium guy giving Canc a kiss and Sagan had pinched his butt, we'd all be in uproar about that too, right?

yeah I think they would...probably all the guys moaning it was no big deal for sagan posting they don't want to see that 5h1t

No_Ta_Doctor

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

above_the_cows

iainf72 wrote:

Wow, been away, must've been a turd of a race.

If there had been a podium guy giving Canc a kiss and Sagan had pinched his butt, we'd all be in uproar about that too, right?

Yes. Everyone has the right not to have their person violated against their will.

powerbookboy

inkyfingers wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Wow, been away, must've been a turd of a race.

If there had been a podium guy giving Canc a kiss and Sagan had pinched his butt, we'd all be in uproar about that too, right?

That's part of the problem with the "equality" thing.

A few years ago a guy I work with drunkenly grabbed a woman's bum at the office party, she complained, he got fired and his reputation damaged.

The very next year a woman in my office grabbed my ars* in front of the whole office, all the women thought it was hilarious, i ignored it.

Someone better qualified than me will tell you it's about power and the exercise thereof. Men are still more likely to be in positions of power than women. And there's the fact that most sexual assaults are carried out against women, rather than by them, therefore women are more likely to be intimidated by male office groper than the other way round.

Basically the argument boils down to don't be a dick, if you are a dick apologise as soon as you can and hope your apology is accepted.

slim_boy_fat

iainf72 wrote:

Wow, been away, must've been a turd of a race.

If there had been a podium guy giving Canc a kiss and Sagan had pinched his butt, we'd all be in uproar about that too, right?

It's the interwebz, there will always be someone in uproar about anything.

I fully understand people being upset about Sagan. Daft thing to do and shouldn't be happening but all the bluster about podium girls, wtf. If they are happy to do it and its not illegal just what is the problem?

slim_boy_fat

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Surely the answer is, as long as its legal, appropriate to the audience and the women have no problem with it then its ok?

Squirrelpie

oneof1982 wrote:

Squirrelpie wrote:

It was inappropriate and a bad judgement call, but compering it to someone cornering a work college and groping them is stupid.

Sorry that is exactly what he did........

Take off the blinkers for god sake.

He was trying to be funny and got it all wrong.

above_the_cows

Squirrelpie wrote:

He was not sexually assaulting her.

For the final time, under UK law groping is a category of sexual assault. And how on earth is people objecting to sexual assault equatable with an omnipresent totalitarian dictatorship? By using such hyperbolic analogies you at one and the same time belittle all victims of sexual violence and totalitarian regimes.

powerbookboy

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Er, I don't want to get too involved, but do you actually think men are titillated by podium girls? They're window dressing, clothes horses so the sponsers logos can be presented well and get into the newspapers. You might as well rail against dummies in shop windows giving passing members (no pun intended) of the public a jolly.

adr82

Above The Cows wrote:

+1 Jane it is sexual assault. I know of instances where people have been prosecuted and convicted of such.

Ah, so the test for whether or not something is bad is if you can successfully be prosecuted for it? :roll: I think this is "sexual assault" in the same sense that taking a pee in public can apparently be enough to get you onto the sex offenders register. Might be correct according to the law as written but anyone with a bit of common sense and/or some sense of perspective (sadly lacking here) can see there's a difference.

As for that link you posted...

Even if a woman's job is to wear a short dress and hand out shiny awards to men, it doesn't mean anyone has a right to anything else from her. Sagan crossed the line, a line that should be VERY clear, and his ass should be punished. In a world that wasn't the sexist worst, this shit would be handled with a team suspension and extensive training for Sagan on how to be a human being. Instead he'll probably be high-fived by a bunch of his pals for violating a woman, and th-th-that's all, folks.

No. Just no. It's not "th-th-that's all, folks." and this thread and the whole internet sh*tstorm this has generated is ample proof that the world isn't "the sexist worst". If the world was as sexist as some of you are making out, nobody would have cared what Sagan did! Why is that difficult to understand? TWH posted another link earlier that made this exact point but nobody seems to have read it. I have zero doubt Sagan is regretting his rather tasteless and unfortunate joke and won't be doing it again. End of story, please go back to waiting for the next artificial controversy to get outraged over.

No_Ta_Doctor

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Surely the answer is, as long as its legal, appropriate to the audience and the women have no problem with it then its ok?

The audience is anyone with access to a TV or a computer.

above_the_cows

adr82 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

+1 Jane it is sexual assault. I know of instances where people have been prosecuted and convicted of such.

Ah, so the test for whether or not something is bad is if you can successfully be prosecuted for it? :roll: I think this is "sexual assault" in the same sense that taking a pee in public can apparently be enough to get you onto the sex offenders register. Might be correct according to the law as written but anyone with a bit of common sense and/or some sense of perspective (sadly lacking here) can see there's a difference.

As for that link you posted...

Even if a woman's job is to wear a short dress and hand out shiny awards to men, it doesn't mean anyone has a right to anything else from her. Sagan crossed the line, a line that should be VERY clear, and his ass should be punished. In a world that wasn't the sexist worst, this shoot would be handled with a team suspension and extensive training for Sagan on how to be a human being. Instead he'll probably be high-fived by a bunch of his pals for violating a woman, and th-th-that's all, folks.

No. Just no. It's not "th-th-that's all, folks." and this thread and the whole internet sh*tstorm this has generated is ample proof that the world isn't "the sexist worst". If the world was as sexist as some of you are making out, nobody would have cared what Sagan did! Why is that difficult to understand? TWH posted another link earlier that made this exact point but nobody seems to have read it. I have zero doubt Sagan is regretting his rather tasteless and unfortunate joke and won't be doing it again. End of story, please go back to waiting for the next artificial controversy to get outraged over.

No one has yet been able to explain to me how Sagan groping a woman's bottom is a joke? How is it funny? People are excusing it this way but are unable to explain why it is funny? And if its all the same to you I won't "go back" anywhere thanks very much. I don't happen to think sexual assault with a large proportion of excuses being made for it actually is an 'artificial controversy'. I think it's a very real problem.

mididoctors

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

In a way this is the crux of it for me...the titillation value is so low. Its just embarrassing. I mean if we are going to have a sexual component you might as well go the full hog and winner does them on the podium. There is nothing more deviant than this low level objectification because it doesn't deliver any genuine erotic entertainment [unless you are a saddo] but at the same time tries to fly in under the radar as though its not even there and that is truly abhorrent.

Its like BB forum or the big girls thread....ok blokes like that sort of banter but in all honesty you have to laugh at how naff it is. It just strikes one as a bunch of guys not getting any. which is ridiculous considering there are sites on the web where you can arrange IRL liaisons with a bevy of consensual women partners quite willing to s**k your k**b three times a hour or more because they like it!

but instead of getting a life where they actually get to enact out the huge wave of erotic desires lurking in the human soul they buy into this really pathetic barbie doll stuff.

I think the whole podium girl wagesque culture thing forms barrier that disrupts the ability of the sexs to get it on. Because the role models are skewed and controlled by commercial forces so for many liaisons are based on this bloody bizarre scenario. I just find it unappealing if nothing else.

Squirrelpie

What a joke.

There was nothing sexual in what he did. He was playing up to the crowd.
It was wrong. Its a bad example of how to conduct himself.

How many times have you lot had your bum pinched?
Have you ever.
a, been offended by the slime ball?
b, broken a smile because they were being jovial?

I can say its happened to me a lot and both a and b applies, a lot is down to my own perspective of the situation at the time and what the intent was by the party involved.

If you can only ever say (a) applies and never (b) then good luck you miserable sod, cos life is gonna brake you.

Frank the tank

Never has there been a better reason for finishing second in a race, there has to be some compensation for finishing second.

Alright it was a bit naughty but it's not exactly up there with rape and doping.

Mountain & mole hill.

adr82

Above The Cows wrote:

No one has yet been able to explain to me how Sagan groping a woman's bottom is a joke? How is it funny? People are excusing it this way but are unable to explain why it is funny? And if its all the same to you I won't "go back" anywhere thanks very much. I don't happen to think sexual assault with a large proportion of excuses being made for it actually is an 'artificial controversy'. I think it's a very real problem.

So tell me, is a failed joke not still a joke? See the grin on Sagan's face in the photo? You don't think that indicates he thought was being funny (please note: "he thought", not "he was")? It's not like he was trying to hide what he did. You might have a better case, or indeed any case, if he'd been captured in an unguarded moment backstage somewhere doing the same thing while lecherously eyeing the lady up, possibly drooling at the mouth or whatever else would most gratify your sense of outrage. However, he did it on the podium in front of presumably hundreds of people and a few dozen photographers. Why else would he do that if not as a joke? Explain that to me.

Anyway, you're obviously enjoying this chance to go on a wee online crusade against "sexual assault", so have fun. Can't help thinking there may be better ways to go about it though... causing such a fuss about what is in the end a trivial offence is essentially just crying wolf and ensuring that real cases of sexual assault will get less attention than they deserve because you've already raised the level of controversy so ridiculously far.

No_Ta_Doctor

powerbookboy wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Er, I don't want to get too involved, but do you actually think men are titillated by podium girls? They're window dressing, clothes horses so the sponsers logos can be presented well and get into the newspapers. You might as well rail against dummies in shop windows giving passing members (no pun intended) of the public a jolly.

So essentially they may as well be blokes?

I'm assuming this BR thread, with nearly 300 replies and over 100K views is primarily for the discussion of sponsor's logos then? viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12698710&p=16134674&hilit=podium+girls#p16134674

above_the_cows

adr82 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

No one has yet been able to explain to me how Sagan groping a woman's bottom is a joke? How is it funny? People are excusing it this way but are unable to explain why it is funny? And if its all the same to you I won't "go back" anywhere thanks very much. I don't happen to think sexual assault with a large proportion of excuses being made for it actually is an 'artificial controversy'. I think it's a very real problem.

So tell me, is a failed joke not still a joke? See the grin on Sagan's face in the photo? You don't think that indicates he thought was being funny (please note: "he thought", not "he was")? It's not like he was trying to hide what he did. You might have a better case, or indeed any case, if he'd been captured in an unguarded moment backstage somewhere doing the same thing while lecherously eyeing the lady up, possibly drooling at the mouth or whatever else would most gratify your sense of outrage. However, he did it on the podium in front of presumably hundreds of people and a few dozen photographers. Why else would he do that if not as a joke? Explain that to me.

Anyway, you're obviously enjoying this chance to go on a wee online crusade against "sexual assault", so have fun. Can't help thinking there may be better ways to go about it though... causing such a fuss about what is in the end a trivial offence is essentially just crying wolf and ensuring that real cases of sexual assault will get less attention than they deserve because you've already raised the level of controversy so ridiculously far.

But you still haven't explained to me why it was a joke in the first place, in order for it to be a failed joke it has still got to have been considered potentially funny in the first place. How is groping a woman's bottom without her consent ever funny?

Believe me I'm not enjoying this at all. It isn't particularly nice to be reminded of the extent of misogyny today nor is it nice to be accused of somehow belittling violence against women when I am not belittling anything you are doing that with words like 'trivial' 'crying wolf' etc. Suggesting that because worse crimes exist then this should be excused. Sorry but I don't agree in that kind of moral relativism.

And I like how it is supposedly me who has raised the controversy level when it was Sagan who was the one groping a woman's bottom against her will. There was actually very little 'controversy' on this forum until people started defending Sagan's actions, you'll find most people, myself included, initially expressing dismay that he'd done something so ridiculous.

But apparently people who object to his actions being seen as acceptable or something to be lauded and applauded should just go away and not speak out about these things.

slim_boy_fat

No tA Doctor wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Surely the answer is, as long as its legal, appropriate to the audience and the women have no problem with it then its ok?

The audience is anyone with access to a TV or a computer.

So your four options are out, however, a couple of pretty women in nice dresses giving the winner a peck on the cheek can't surely be sexist or objectionable? Especially if they are fully ok with it?

Frank the tank

What did he do?

GROPE=Feel about, search blindly.

PINCH=Nip, squeeze.

I didn't witness the happening but I would hazard it was a pinch rather than a grope.

Whether either is acceptable behaviour I have my doubts, however, If a friend of mine/ours pinched my wifes bottom it would get a different response from us both to a grope.

No_Ta_Doctor

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Surely the answer is, as long as its legal, appropriate to the audience and the women have no problem with it then its ok?

The audience is anyone with access to a TV or a computer.

So your four options are out, however, a couple of pretty women in nice dresses giving the winner a peck on the cheek can't surely be sexist or objectionable? Especially if they are fully ok with it?

Well why don't we have a men-only podium presentation afterwards then, where we can hire some strippers?

Using "pretty women" as eye-candy is sexist, and I find it objectionable.

emadden

...meanwhile over in Belgium (and in particular in Oudenaarde this morning where Fabian Cancellara turned up to meet his "fan Club" at the De Ronde Museeum) nobody was really was paying much attention to this or making any song and dance. Perhaps its just a British thing with the ever powerful PC brigade?

slim_boy_fat

No tA Doctor wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Surely the answer is, as long as its legal, appropriate to the audience and the women have no problem with it then its ok?

The audience is anyone with access to a TV or a computer.

So your four options are out, however, a couple of pretty women in nice dresses giving the winner a peck on the cheek can't surely be sexist or objectionable? Especially if they are fully ok with it?

Well why don't we have a men-only podium presentation afterwards then, where we can hire some strippers?

Using "pretty women" as eye-candy is sexist, and I find it objectionable.

Which is your right and your fully entitled to it. However, when its not illegal and the women involved are doing it of their own free will why should they take your opinion into account? I could take them or leave them, wouldn't miss them if they weren't there but they are and I think ' she's a pretty lady', a bit like I do if I pass one on the street. No harm in it, all this talk of sexual deviancy for finding women attractive is laughable.

And if the target audience was a bunch of twenty something women I'm sure we would have a men only podium

No_Ta_Doctor

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

For those defending having podiums girls, at what point would it become sexist or objectionable?

1) Podium girls clad only in lingerie
2) Topless podium girls
3) Full frontal nude podium girls
4) Nude podium girls performing sex acts on the winner

Their only purpose is to provide a little titillation to male fans, they have no connection with cycling. The only question is how far you think they should go to provide that.

Surely the answer is, as long as its legal, appropriate to the audience and the women have no problem with it then its ok?

The audience is anyone with access to a TV or a computer.

So your four options are out, however, a couple of pretty women in nice dresses giving the winner a peck on the cheek can't surely be sexist or objectionable? Especially if they are fully ok with it?

Well why don't we have a men-only podium presentation afterwards then, where we can hire some strippers?

Using "pretty women" as eye-candy is sexist, and I find it objectionable.

Which is your right and your fully entitled to it. However, when its not illegal and the women involved are doing it of their own free will why should they take your opinion into account? I could take them or leave them, wouldn't miss them if they weren't there but they are and I think ' she's a pretty lady', a bit like I do if I pass one on the street. No harm in it, all this talk of sexual deviancy for finding women attractive is laughable.

And if the target audience was a bunch of twenty something women I'm sure we would have a men only podium

You're close to getting it now, if we throw away the straw man of "sexual deviancy", I'm not sure where you dragged that up from. Putting "pretty women" on the podium underlines that cycling is a sport for blokes that women shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about. It's antiquated and alienating for women and girls. You can't see Vos winning the Women's Ronde, but hey, there's some pretty chicks kissing Spartacus...

mididoctors

if you look at womens biathlon its streets ahead in terms of equality coverage and culture