Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

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Comments

  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/19/lance-armstrong-oprah-winfrey-live

    Can't see a video link for last nights to post for people, but this can be read in 2 minutes and goes through it all.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    mfin wrote:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/19/lance-armstrong-oprah-winfrey-live

    Can't see a video link for last nights to post for people, but this can be read in 2 minutes and goes through it all.


    Nice to see Betsy Andreu who always stood up to Armstrong.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    All athletes point to the amount of dope tests they undertake. Just because Lance said it, doesnt mean that every athlete must be held up to suspicion for saying similar. Funnily enough Lance doesnt hold the monopoly on language.

    It is absolutely ridiculous to try to condemn athletes - of ANY sport that's regularly tested - from highlighting the fact that they're regularly tested. Firstly because its generally the truth. Secondly AD testing processes and controls in cycling have made huge progress since the 90s and early 00s - far more regular OOC testing, far more in-competition tests for the pros, the range of tests, the Whereabouts systems, and the biological passport (which I believe ALL WADA-code sports should be made to sign up to).

    Its not unique to Wiggins. Even BR's own Pokerface wrote a blog that I read yesterday in which he writes extensively about how important testing is to him as a clean athlete. Want to challenge Pokerface now or doubt that he's a clean rider because he talks about being tested?

    There's also how hard they train - but of course the likes of Trev will also say 'oh Lance talked about how hard he busted his ass' etc etc.

    So the only things the athletes can say when asked to back up their assertions that they are clean are:

    how hard they train
    testing and AD controls
    their antipathy to doping and why they wouldnt do it (about which actually Wiggins has said vastly more than almost any other rider up to and including his recent book)

    Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but how do you know Poker Face, or any other rider isn't doping or using PEDs? You don't know. None of us do and none of us can. I think it's a very dangerous position to take to state that any rider is clean. Healthy cynicism is probably best all round.

    For my own penny's worth, I shall continue to enjoy the sport, but I shall never again put a rider on a pedestal or take any performance for granted.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    All athletes point to the amount of dope tests they undertake. Just because Lance said it, doesnt mean that every athlete must be held up to suspicion for saying similar. Funnily enough Lance doesnt hold the monopoly on language.

    It is absolutely ridiculous to try to condemn athletes - of ANY sport that's regularly tested - from highlighting the fact that they're regularly tested. Firstly because its generally the truth. Secondly AD testing processes and controls in cycling have made huge progress since the 90s and early 00s - far more regular OOC testing, far more in-competition tests for the pros, the range of tests, the Whereabouts systems, and the biological passport (which I believe ALL WADA-code sports should be made to sign up to).

    Its not unique to Wiggins. Even BR's own Pokerface wrote a blog that I read yesterday in which he writes extensively about how important testing is to him as a clean athlete. Want to challenge Pokerface now or doubt that he's a clean rider because he talks about being tested?


    There's also how hard they train - but of course the likes of Trev will also say 'oh Lance talked about how hard he busted his ass' etc etc.

    So the only things the athletes can say when asked to back up their assertions that they are clean are:

    how hard they train
    testing and AD controls
    their antipathy to doping and why they wouldnt do it (about which actually Wiggins has said vastly more than almost any other rider up to and including his recent book)

    So are you saying cycling is a clean sport now and has been since the mid 2000s? Sky have only just got rid of half the team that helped Wiggins win the Tour because they have used drugs or blood doped. Only just got rid of the Dr Leinders.

    Wiggins has been around a long time, he was in the Cofidis team when a rider got busted. Wiggins has been swimming in a very dirty pool in amongst a shoal of proven and self confessed cheats.

    Sorry but I do not think cycling is now clean. I've heard it all before - every year since 1967..
  • meagain
    meagain Posts: 2,331
    "...he fought back tears as he discussed the impact on his family, "

    At last, the bit where we can all simultaneously vomit and laugh.
    d.j.
    "Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    All athletes point to the amount of dope tests they undertake. Just because Lance said it, doesnt mean that every athlete must be held up to suspicion for saying similar. Funnily enough Lance doesnt hold the monopoly on language.

    It is absolutely ridiculous to try to condemn athletes - of ANY sport that's regularly tested - from highlighting the fact that they're regularly tested. Firstly because its generally the truth. Secondly AD testing processes and controls in cycling have made huge progress since the 90s and early 00s - far more regular OOC testing, far more in-competition tests for the pros, the range of tests, the Whereabouts systems, and the biological passport (which I believe ALL WADA-code sports should be made to sign up to).

    Its not unique to Wiggins. Even BR's own Pokerface wrote a blog that I read yesterday in which he writes extensively about how important testing is to him as a clean athlete. Want to challenge Pokerface now or doubt that he's a clean rider because he talks about being tested?


    There's also how hard they train - but of course the likes of Trev will also say 'oh Lance talked about how hard he busted his ass' etc etc.

    So the only things the athletes can say when asked to back up their assertions that they are clean are:

    how hard they train
    testing and AD controls
    their antipathy to doping and why they wouldnt do it (about which actually Wiggins has said vastly more than almost any other rider up to and including his recent book)

    So are you saying cycling is a clean sport now and has been since the mid 2000s? Sky have only just got rid of half the team that helped Wiggins win the Tour because they have used drugs or blood doped. Only just got rid of the Dr Leinders.

    Wiggins has been around a long time, he was in the Cofidis team when a rider got busted. Wiggins has been swimming in a very dirty pool in amongst a shoal of proven and self confessed cheats.

    Sorry but I do not think cycling is now clean. I've heard it all before - every year since 1967..

    So every rider ever is dirty?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    Only if they haven't failed a test.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    All athletes point to the amount of dope tests they undertake. Just because Lance said it, doesnt mean that every athlete must be held up to suspicion for saying similar. Funnily enough Lance doesnt hold the monopoly on language.

    It is absolutely ridiculous to try to condemn athletes - of ANY sport that's regularly tested - from highlighting the fact that they're regularly tested. Firstly because its generally the truth. Secondly AD testing processes and controls in cycling have made huge progress since the 90s and early 00s - far more regular OOC testing, far more in-competition tests for the pros, the range of tests, the Whereabouts systems, and the biological passport (which I believe ALL WADA-code sports should be made to sign up to).

    Its not unique to Wiggins. Even BR's own Pokerface wrote a blog that I read yesterday in which he writes extensively about how important testing is to him as a clean athlete. Want to challenge Pokerface now or doubt that he's a clean rider because he talks about being tested?

    There's also how hard they train - but of course the likes of Trev will also say 'oh Lance talked about how hard he busted his ass' etc etc.

    So the only things the athletes can say when asked to back up their assertions that they are clean are:

    how hard they train
    testing and AD controls
    their antipathy to doping and why they wouldnt do it (about which actually Wiggins has said vastly more than almost any other rider up to and including his recent book)

    Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but how do you know Poker Face, or any other rider isn't doping or using PEDs? You don't know. None of us do and none of us can. I think it's a very dangerous position to take to state that any rider is clean. Healthy cynicism is probably best all round.

    For my own penny's worth, I shall continue to enjoy the sport, but I shall never again put a rider on a pedestal or take any performance for granted.


    Rapper, my point is not that because an athlete says they are clean, that there is a god-given right for everyone to believe them. The point I am making is that there are only so many things they can say to back up their assertions that they are clean - and undertaking regular controls is one of them. They dont have a whole army of other things they can say. And to highlight anything a rider is quoted for as sus 'because Lance also said' it, is daft. Like I said, Lance doesnt have the monopoly on the English language.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.
  • mooro
    mooro Posts: 483
    meagain wrote:
    "...he fought back tears as he discussed the impact on his family, "

    At last, the bit where we can all simultaneously vomit and laugh.

    Meagain - to do both at the same time is quite a choking risk!

    So to summarise his plan - come clean about 1999-2005 accept an eight year ban, and with some fake remorse / contrition wins back a few potential sponsors in a few years and he is back competing in other sports in about (counts fingers...) six months....
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.

    So why bother then? I'm only going to condemn a rider as a cheat if there is convincing evidence to support that. Not conjecture and guilt by association. Otherwise, I might as well just follow doping stories rather than racing.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited January 2013
    Trev, what are your views on Garmin, who won the Giro?

    - several of Ryder Hejesdal's team mates who were crucial to his win, are confessed ex-dopers
    - the boss is Vaughters
    - Ryder rode for USPS 04-05, and Phonak 06
    - they also have Millar and Dekker
    - one of the DS's is Jonny Weitz/Weltz - look him up, his background and how he lied by decrying Hamilton's book
    - Allan Lim, redacted name in the USADA report - connected with some of the riders in coaching capacity

    and so on

    Take a look them at the team who was the equivalent for Sky in the Classics - OPQS. Their roster of people with pasts will blow your mind - and most especially a certain Doctor Jose Ibarguren Taus...Christ, you want a doctor who worked with many teams with drug busts and postives, he makes Leinders look like your local GP.


    Does this mean that I think Garmin or Boonen arent clean? No, on balance I think they are. But there are people with pasts on every single Pro Tour team.

    Sky have had a clear out to try to avoid any nasty scandals emerging from staffs' pre-Sky pasts a la Barry, in the future.

    But I'll ask you this question: if Sky were doping to win last year and it involved people they've let go, dont you think they would do everything to ensure that those people stayed within the fold and under their eye and control - whatever it took - rather than clear them out and let them go off to other teams, start talking and give away any Sky dark doping secrets?
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.

    So why bother then? I'm only going to condemn a rider as a cheat if there is convincing evidence to support that. Not conjecture and guilt by association. Otherwise, I might as well just follow doping stories rather than racing.


    I think the fact is, DG, that there are some who actually want to spend more time immersed in the dark side stuff, rather than the actual racing.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.

    So why bother then? I'm only going to condemn a rider as a cheat if there is convincing evidence to support that. Not conjecture and guilt by association. Otherwise, I might as well just follow doping stories rather than racing.


    Seeing as I doubt you have ever seen a top class race which does not have doped riders contesting the podium places you are watching doping stories anyway.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    There you go, Greased, do you feel burned?
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.

    So why bother then? I'm only going to condemn a rider as a cheat if there is convincing evidence to support that. Not conjecture and guilt by association. Otherwise, I might as well just follow doping stories rather than racing.


    Seeing as I doubt you have ever seen a top class race which does not have doped riders contesting the podium places you are watching doping stories anyway.

    But without proof of their doping, I choose to believe in a concept that has been the cornerstone of judicial systems the world over for centuries... That until proven beyond reasonable doubt, somebody didn't dope until evidence is presented otherwise.

    Show me the evidence (remember, conjecture, hearsay and guilt by association doesn't count) of the podiums of this years Giro or Tour doping.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • feltkuota
    feltkuota Posts: 333
    Got to say that I was a believer. The why's and the sense of that I've had to come to terms with since the Doj and USADA. For the avoidance of doubt he is now in the same box with all the other cheats and dopers. Yes he was probably the biggest and worst doper but still just a doper.

    Of course he is a huge villain in many people's eyes, caused by his own deeds, bullied many, sued many and lied plenty but what do people want? He is at the end of the day someone that cheated at sport and went all in to depend the indefensible.

    From the first part of the OW show, haven't yet seen the second, i took that perhaps he now got how much damage he has done. Whether that's because he now sees jail time, loss of fortune, misery for his children as the reason, is by and large irrelevant as the point is that he now appreciates the damage.

    I know there are a huge amount of people and livelihoods he has harmed and I hope that they can find a resolution however he is just a man that has cheated at sport. That last line may sound like me defending him however it is not.

    Anyway, flame away
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Trev, what are your views on Garmin, who won the Giro?

    - several of Ryder Hejesdal's team mates who were crucial to his win, are confessed ex-dopers
    - the boss is Vaughters
    - Ryder rode for USPS 04-05, and Phonak 06
    - one of the DS's is Jonny Weitz/Weltz - look him up, his background and how he lied by decrying Hamilton's book
    - Allan Lim, redacted name in the USADA report - connected with some of the riders in coaching capacity

    and so on

    Take a look them at the team who was the equivalent for Sky in the Classics - OPQS. Their roster of people with pasts will blow your mind - and most especially a certain Doctor Jose Ibarguren Taus...Christ, you want a doctor who worked with many teams with drug busts and postives, he makes Leinders look like your local GP.


    Does this mean that I think Garmin or Boonen arent clean? No, on balance I think they are. But there are people with pasts on every single Pro Tour team.

    Sky have had a clear out to try to avoid any nasty scandals emerging from staffs' pre-Sky pasts a la Barry, in the future.

    But I'll ask you this question: if Sky were doping to win last year and it involved people they've let go, dont you think they would do everything to ensure that those people stayed within the fold and under their eye and control - whatever it took - rather than clear them out and let them go off to other teams, start talking and give away any Sky dark doping secrets?

    That is a very good question. There are so many people who have to keep quite. It only needs one disgruntled ex rider or coach to say something. There is so much money and so many reputations at stake. Surely they won't risk it all by cheating. But hold on - how many millions were Nike paying Armstrong plus many millions of dollars from other sponsors, not to mention the charity, and so many reputations at stake and it took over a decade for the lot to come tumbling down.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    part two seemed a bit of a wash out and again I just felt he was acting and wasn't really sorry. Still going on with the same lies to try and get himself out of a corner and again he gave some leading answers with Oprah either cut off or changed to a different line of questioning without following up
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited January 2013
    Trev, seriously, like Greased, I will not condemn a team soley on the basis of x or y connections in the past. By doing that EVERY team in the ProTour would have to condemned.

    And I ask you, if you feel that way, why continue to take any kind of interest in procycling - if in fact you do?
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.

    So why bother then? I'm only going to condemn a rider as a cheat if there is convincing evidence to support that. Not conjecture and guilt by association. Otherwise, I might as well just follow doping stories rather than racing.


    Seeing as I doubt you have ever seen a top class race which does not have doped riders contesting the podium places you are watching doping stories anyway.

    But without proof of their doping, I choose to believe in a concept that has been the cornerstone of judicial systems the world over for centuries... That until proven beyond reasonable doubt, somebody didn't dope until evidence is presented otherwise.

    Show me the evidence (remember, conjecture, hearsay and guilt by association doesn't count) of the podiums of this years Giro or Tour doping.

    You coud have said that about every tour for 30 years but look back now. There might not be evidence yet, wait a few years.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    So every rider ever is dirty?

    No of course not, but a very high percentage of top riders have been, even if you only take the ones where there is proof.

    So why bother then? I'm only going to condemn a rider as a cheat if there is convincing evidence to support that. Not conjecture and guilt by association. Otherwise, I might as well just follow doping stories rather than racing.


    Seeing as I doubt you have ever seen a top class race which does not have doped riders contesting the podium places you are watching doping stories anyway.

    But without proof of their doping, I choose to believe in a concept that has been the cornerstone of judicial systems the world over for centuries... That until proven beyond reasonable doubt, somebody didn't dope until evidence is presented otherwise.

    Show me the evidence (remember, conjecture, hearsay and guilt by association doesn't count) of the podiums of this years Giro or Tour doping.

    You coud have said that about every tour for 30 years but look back now. There might not be evidence yet, wait a few years.


    That'll hold up in court.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    You havent responded to my questions about Garmin or OPQS, Trev
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Trev, seriously, like Greased, I will not condemn a rider or a team because of any connections. By doing that EVERY team in the ProTour would be condemned. And I ask you, if you feel that way, why continue to take any kind of interest in procycling - if in fact you do?

    The reason so many teams in the pro tour would be condemned is because so many team owners, coaching staff and riders are ex dopers.

    You should spend more time getting all wound up by the cheats than getting annoyed at people like me who are not prepared to keep sweeping all the cheating under the carpet.

    The sport is infested and it will remain so as long as apologists like you try to shout down people who want to see it properly disinfected.
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    But without proof of their doping, I choose to believe in a concept that has been the cornerstone of judicial systems the world over for centuries... That until proven beyond reasonable doubt, somebody didn't dope until evidence is presented otherwise.

    Show me the evidence (remember, conjecture, hearsay and guilt by association doesn't count) of the podiums of this years Giro or Tour doping.

    You coud have said that about every tour for 30 years but look back now. There might not be evidence yet, wait a few years.[/quote]


    There is a difference. 10 years ago, 20 years ago, I reckon most informed observers assumed it was at least highly likely that most of the main contenders were doping. My guess would be that now most informed observers think there is at least a good chance that many of the top contenders are clean. Now that's a long way from being fairly certain the sport is clean - but it's also a long way from the situation of 10 or 20 years ago.

    Of course in 30 years it might turn out they are all doped to the eyeballs.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Greased, Trev's new approach to sport: No medals, trophies, titles, names on rosters etc to be awarded across sport for an indeterminate number of years because you never know what might come to light
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Greased, Trev's new approach to sport: No medals, trophies, titles, names on rosters etc to be awarded across sport for an indeterminate number of years because you never know what might come to light


    All joking aside

    1) SOmebody has to win the races, don't they?

    2) How will Trev ever know when he has found clean sport?

    3) Not shouting that people with no evidence against them are dopers because they do well is not the same as "sweeping it under the carpet", that approach is the same as wanting the bloke down the end of the street who looks a bit funny locked up

    4) I'm not Greased Scotsman.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Greased, Trev's new approach to sport: No medals, trophies, titles, names on rosters etc to be awarded across sport for an indeterminate number of years because you never know what might come to light

    That is not my approach. Your approach just got 7 Tours won by Armstrong with no winner at all, 2006 got the bloke who came 2nd to Landis, and 2010 got the bloke who came second to Contador.

    You have been watching a farce for years, and the reason you were watching a farce was because people like you chose to believe in the farce year in year out and bought the merchandise and continued to feather the nests of a bunch of cheating liars.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Greased, Trev's new approach to sport: No medals, trophies, titles, names on rosters etc to be awarded across sport for an indeterminate number of years because you never know what might come to light


    All joking aside

    1) SOmebody has to win the races, don't they?

    2) How will Trev ever know when he has found clean sport?

    3) Not shouting that people with no evidence against them are dopers because they do well is not the same as "sweeping it under the carpet", that approach is the same as wanting the bloke down the end of the street who looks a bit funny locked up

    4) I'm not Greased Scotsman.



    Just realised I'd been typing the wrong name :oops:
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    Trev your arrogance is approaching Armstrong levels. The notion that only a select few had doubts about Armstrong (and other cyclists) is frankly bizarre. And offensive.

    People like you want nothing more than for cycling to remain dirty.

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