USADA files doping charges against Lance

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Comments

  • luckao
    luckao Posts: 632
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    Luckao wrote:
    I really don't think Lance needs a union working on his behalf. If the organisation does lack credibility, or even the case itself, he has the people to expose that.

    The union part was more about cyclists in general. They get screwed by the ADA's, the race management and the UCI at every turn.

    Out of curiosity, do you have any specific cases in mind? I'd just like a better insight into what you're talking about.
  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    Luckao wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    Luckao wrote:
    I really don't think Lance needs a union working on his behalf. If the organisation does lack credibility, or even the case itself, he has the people to expose that.

    The union part was more about cyclists in general. They get screwed by the ADA's, the race management and the UCI at every turn.

    Out of curiosity, do you have any specific cases in mind? I'd just like a better insight into what you're talking about.

    Do you mean like when they decided to ban race radios without talking to the riders and only when the DS got involved and rumors started of a breakaway series did radios come back...for now? How about the Pro Tour minimum salary being about $40,000, the lowest in team sports, while the UCI and the major organizers are raking in the money? For comparison the average salary in League Two is £65,000!
  • luckao
    luckao Posts: 632
    League Two? Once again, enlighten me.
  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    Luckao wrote:
    League Two? Once again, enlighten me.

    That would be the fourth level of professional football in England. Premier League, Championship, League One, League Two?
  • luckao
    luckao Posts: 632
    They don't get that much per year. It's quite a bit, just not that much. It's more like £40,000.
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    The financial state of most football teams is fairly precarious though, and comparing the average salary to the minimum possibly isn't fair.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • luckao
    luckao Posts: 632
    Jez mon wrote:
    The financial state of most football teams is fairly precarious though, and comparing the average salary to the minimum possibly isn't fair.

    Yeah, I'm not really sure how much a union could pull out of the teams. Unions in sport seem to extract crippling amounts from the teams, certainly in basketball and football.
  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    Luckao, I got the numbers from here: http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-englis ... ons/92692/ Though looking some more it appears that £38,000 is the average, which is almost double the cycling minimum.

    Jez, I used League Two because they do not have the huge salaries at the top to drive up the average, so it would compare a lot closer then the just under 50% difference between that and cyclings minimum.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    (unlike ddraver, who avoided it). .

    Necessary? Maybe it was time for ddraver to go home and speak to real people? Sounds like you re starting your own insults now.... but anyway...

    Football is swimming in money, there is no comparison between football and cycling, One Player can cost more than an entire cycling team. In Britain in particualr this filters down to the lower leagues who get fill significant stadiums every weekend. Crazy, but nevertheless reality....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    ddraver wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    (unlike ddraver, who avoided it). .

    Necessary? Maybe it was time for ddraver to go home and speak to real people? Sounds like you re starting your own insults now.... but anyway...

    Football is swimming in money, there is no comparison between football and cycling, One Player can cost more than an entire cycling team. In Britain in particualr this filters down to the lower leagues who get fill significant stadiums every weekend. Crazy, but nevertheless reality....

    No, you avoided it by your response to my truthful scenario, so let's not make things up.

    Football does have money, but League Two should not have an average salary that much higher then the minimum in cycling. Here is something to think about, ASO get about €3.1m just from stage start and finish towns on average for the whole Tour and about €20m just for French TV rights. Enough to give each team €1m if they wanted. That could do a lot for the sport. Keep in mind this is before sponsorship revenue or merchandise, so that is just the tip of the iceberg. In other words the current minimum is absurdly low for a professional team sport at the highest level.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    going back to the LA arguement, he claims it's the UCI that should bring about any action rather than USADA. The very same UCI he has twice publicly paid money too and I would suspect there may be a few back door payments to them too.

    The same UCI who allegedly covered up an LA positive and rememeber on ex team mate of Vaughters once said "if you were on our team you would be protected". Wonder who could have said that
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    The judge dismissed his suit saying it was a PR move.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    edited July 2012
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    (unlike ddraver, who avoided it). .

    Necessary? Maybe it was time for ddraver to go home and speak to real people? Sounds like you re starting your own insults now.... but anyway...

    Football is swimming in money, there is no comparison between football and cycling, One Player can cost more than an entire cycling team. In Britain in particualr this filters down to the lower leagues who get fill significant stadiums every weekend. Crazy, but nevertheless reality....

    No, you avoided it by your response to my truthful scenario, so let's not make things up.

    Football does have money, but League Two should not have an average salary that much higher then the minimum in cycling. Here is something to think about, ASO get about €3.1m just from stage start and finish towns on average for the whole Tour and about €20m just for French TV rights. Enough to give each team €1m if they wanted. That could do a lot for the sport. Keep in mind this is before sponsorship revenue or merchandise, so that is just the tip of the iceberg. In other words the current minimum is absurdly low for a professional team sport at the highest level.
    Genuinely am lost now - what response? I asked you three simple questions hoping for straight answers and i left it at that. Everyone else can decide if you gave them or not... I did nt respond to any of them. If you want my response, please ask. However you can probably guess what it is from the fact that I'm fully behind the judge's decision

    I disagree with you about the comparison to football, it just simply is nt the same scale. Even comparing football in a single country (in fact even a single country within a united kingdom) to Global cycling...I know it's a shame and we all want cycling to be the Number 1 sport, but it just ain't
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/sport ... ref=sports

    He's going to re-file, but the judge saw it for what it was very quickly
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    listed here too

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/ju ... sfeed=true

    Not read the article yet
  • luckao
    luckao Posts: 632
    80 pages? That's definitely clutching at straws. At least the judge was critical about the only possible purpose that such a document could serve.
  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    ddraver wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    (unlike ddraver, who avoided it). .

    Necessary? Maybe it was time for ddraver to go home and speak to real people? Sounds like you re starting your own insults now.... but anyway...

    Football is swimming in money, there is no comparison between football and cycling, One Player can cost more than an entire cycling team. In Britain in particualr this filters down to the lower leagues who get fill significant stadiums every weekend. Crazy, but nevertheless reality....

    No, you avoided it by your response to my truthful scenario, so let's not make things up.

    Football does have money, but League Two should not have an average salary that much higher then the minimum in cycling. Here is something to think about, ASO get about €3.1m just from stage start and finish towns on average for the whole Tour and about €20m just for French TV rights. Enough to give each team €1m if they wanted. That could do a lot for the sport. Keep in mind this is before sponsorship revenue or merchandise, so that is just the tip of the iceberg. In other words the current minimum is absurdly low for a professional team sport at the highest level.
    Genuinely am lost now - what response? I asked you three simple questions hoping for straight answers and i left it at that. Everyone else can decide if you gave them or not... I did nt respond to any of them. If you want my response, please ask. However you can probably guess what it is from the fact that I'm fully behind the judge's decision

    I disagree with you about the comparison to football, it just simply is nt the same scale. Even comparing football in a single country (in fact even a single country within a united kingdom) to Global cycling...I know it's a shame and we all want cycling to be the Number 1 sport, but it just ain't

    The response that was only a question, not an answer. Read the top of page 69, maybe you'll figure it out.

    You can disagree all you want but your comments show that you are only seeing what you want to see and not what I am presenting. You are also making things up(where did I say anything about wanting cycling to be number one) in order to obfuscate things and ignoring what doesn't suit your argument. It's disingenuous at best, therefore until you stick to the points I am making and what I am actually saying I won't bother responding to you here.
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    blah blah blah.. I won't bother responding to you here.
    Good. Your posts are tiresome at best.
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  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    nic_77 wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    blah blah blah.. I won't bother responding to you here.
    Good. Your posts are tiresome at best.

    So tiresome that you read them and get worked up enough to respond with an attempted insult?

    That doesn't reflect well on you.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Once again, it isnt all about you Rundy, My posts show that I disagree, no more, no less

    Top of page 69 - Ok, that was asking you to give a solid answer, we re not politicians here, Maybe I've been with the Dutch too long but I find it easier when people just say what they mean!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • prawny
    prawny Posts: 5,440
    Judge sparks is hilarious, someone posted an old order from 2011 on twitter

    http://t.co/w2r1qoYJ (hope that works, not LA related but very good.)

    In my head he's the judge from My Cousin Vinny
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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    prawny wrote:
    Judge sparks is hilarious, someone posted an old order from 2011 on twitter

    http://t.co/w2r1qoYJ (hope that works, not LA related but very good.)

    In my head he's the judge from My Cousin Vinny

    Ahm no faancy, biiig city lawyer...
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    prawny wrote:
    Judge sparks is hilarious, someone posted an old order from 2011 on twitter

    http://t.co/w2r1qoYJ (hope that works, not LA related but very good.)

    In my head he's the judge from My Cousin Vinny

    I do hope that is real.
    It is a brilliant response and one I shall be forwarding to a couple of Briefs that I know (they will hate it :D )
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • Noclue
    Noclue Posts: 503
    I've been trying to following this thread and i'm mostly up to date but i do have a couple of questions, apologies if the answers lie in some of the previous pages,

    1, USADA claim to have blood data that proves LA doped during his 2009/10 come back, should this not have been picked up by the biological passport? or is the BP administered by each countries ADA? I thought it was all done by the UCI or WADA.

    2, If the BP has failed in this case are USADA implying that the UCI/WADA covered up irregularities in LA's blood profile?

    3, If the answer to 2 is yes where does this leave the BP in it's current form, and would those who have served bans due to it i.e. Pellozotti, have a case to take the UCI/WADA to court for loss of earnings etc.

    Hope that makes enough sense to answer. Thanks.
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,891
    I like this part
    "Defendants have presented Mr Armstrong with an impossible and unlawful choice: either accept a lifetime ban and the loss of his competitive achievements, or endure a rigged process where he would be certain to lose and suffer the same outcome,"

    Hyperbole aside, it implies he is realising the game is up.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Noclue wrote:
    I've been trying to following this thread and i'm mostly up to date but i do have a couple of questions, apologies if the answers lie in some of the previous pages,

    1, USADA claim to have blood data that proves LA doped during his 2009/10 come back, should this not have been picked up by the biological passport? or is the BP administered by each countries ADA? I thought it was all done by the UCI or WADA.

    Yes, but it could opnly indicate suspicion rather than PROVE doping

    2, If the BP has failed in this case are USADA implying that the UCI/WADA covered up irregularities in LA's blood profile?

    Meh....not exactly, but questions should be asked of them. Trouble is we all know they ll be ignored

    3, If the answer to 2 is yes where does this leave the BP in it's current form, and would those who have served bans due to it i.e. Pellozotti, have a case to take the UCI/WADA to court for loss of earnings etc.

    I think the BP is OK, but the UCI is in a bit of a pickle!! It will depend what the Witnesses have said, The UCI could potentially still stick their heads in the sand and ignore it unless there is definite evidence that they ve covered stuff up. At the end of the day, "I witnessed Armstrong taking EPO" does not equate to "The UCI covered up positive tests"
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Noclue wrote:
    I've been trying to following this thread and i'm mostly up to date but i do have a couple of questions, apologies if the answers lie in some of the previous pages,

    1, USADA claim to have blood data that proves LA doped during his 2009/10 come back, should this not have been picked up by the biological passport? or is the BP administered by each countries ADA? I thought it was all done by the UCI or WADA.

    2, If the BP has failed in this case are USADA implying that the UCI/WADA covered up irregularities in LA's blood profile?

    3, If the answer to 2 is yes where does this leave the BP in it's current form, and would those who have served bans due to it i.e. Pellozotti, have a case to take the UCI/WADA to court for loss of earnings etc.

    Hope that makes enough sense to answer. Thanks.

    1) The passport is administered by the UCI. It should have been picked up by the passport. There were a number of outstanding cases around 2010 which seem to have disappeared. It's probably worth reading Michael Ashendens take on it

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/ ... ges_227833

    2) Maybe. Maybe not

    3) No. One of the big challenges around the passport is because it's complex, they make completely sure. Even with Franco they took their time because the first thing a rider does is bust out the expensive lawyers. Which means the UCI need a lawyer and all this stuff costs money.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    the trouble with the passport is it seems to look for spikes and they use that to take case forward. If you microdose all the time then every time you are checked the levels will be similar but they don't seem to be checking for this. Not sure if that is by design as it's safer to microdose than jack yourself to the gills
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    sherer wrote:
    the trouble with the passport is it seems to look for spikes and they use that to take case forward. If you microdose all the time then every time you are checked the levels will be similar but they don't seem to be checking for this. Not sure if that is by design as it's safer to microdose than jack yourself to the gills

    Didn't The Cobra go for a combination of consistent blood levels and jacking himself to the gills? He had a UCI execption for high HCT didn't he?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,891
    Surely the passport is a deterent rather than a means of prosecution.

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