USADA files doping charges against Lance
Comments
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Rundfahrt wrote:Luckao, I got the numbers from here: http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-englis ... ons/92692/ Though looking some more it appears that £38,000 is the average, which is almost double the cycling minimum.
Jez, I used League Two because they do not have the huge salaries at the top to drive up the average, so it would compare a lot closer then the just under 50% difference between that and cyclings minimum.
Um, I suggest you redo 'the math'. Other than for a neo-pro the minimum salary is 35,000 euros which is roughly £28,000 i.e. 75% of the football average. The average pro tour salary (to compare apples with apples rather than oranges) is 70,000 euros so double the minimum. Don't forget that cycling is also very equitable in that they pool prize money and split it among the team (both riding and back room). The biggest problem in payments to cyclists is the race organisers taking ages to pay out prize money. Comparing with football or the major US sports is completely unfair in any case as they all make far more money from sponsorship and TV deals than a minority sport like cycling. There seem to be plenty of people who want to be a pro cyclist considering they are having to work for such a pittence.0 -
One thing I am confused about here is the process. My understanding is the doping agencies pass evidence to the national governing body for the sport in question (so US cycling in this case) and that they then give a sanction. The UCI either ratifies that sanction or appeals it to WADA (as per the Bertie case). If upheld the athlete can appeal to WADA. Is this correct? If so I assume all USADA are doing is pulling the evidence together for US cycling to make the ultimate decision of what the sanction should be?0
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disgruntledgoat wrote:prawny wrote:Judge sparks is hilarious, someone posted an old order from 2011 on twitter
http://t.co/w2r1qoYJ (hope that works, not LA related but very good.)
In my head he's the judge from My Cousin Vinny
Ahm no faancy, biiig city lawyer...
Saracen Tenet 3 - 2015 - Dead - Replaced with a Hack Frame
Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
Vitus Sentier VRS - 20170 -
sherer wrote:the trouble with the passport is it seems to look for spikes and they use that to take case forward. If you microdose all the time then every time you are checked the levels will be similar but they don't seem to be checking for this. Not sure if that is by design as it's safer to microdose than jack yourself to the gills
I think you might be looking at the passport along simple lines if you think it looks for spikes. Spikes aren't by definition a difference from the norm that indicates doping, of course, spikes can be too though, but the BP looks at many aspects of the blood and how things should change naturally over time etc... takes a lot of reading up to even begin to get a picture.
Also, as for microdosing... well, it can be easy to think, if you're talking about a drug such as EPO that 'people used to taking whopping amounts in one go' and now they 'take little bits all the time' for a similar effect. BUT, take a look in the case of EPO into the fact that 'microdosing of EPO' is used in one scenario to manipulate Reticulyte counts where blood transfusions are concerned, the EPO itself in that methodology is not a performance booster, the extra blood is, its used to make levels look normal where the advantage has been gained from the transfusion of extra blood. I'm trying to keep it simple there, but its worth reading up on if its something of interest. I'm sure some people will have some links to hand on all this.
Also, take a look at the fact that if you got a coke can of your blood and popped it in then basically, the volume of your Red Cells and Plasma both increase, its the Red Cells you want for more oxygen carrying capacity, and you then have them, there and ready to go. Your body will then quickly get rid of the Plasma, and again, you're still left with those extra Red Cells. Again, a simple example. ...but, if you get to the point of being tested, you can bung half a coke can of Plasma back into you (so your Red vs White comes back into line), your Reticulyte count wont look right though, microdosing EPO at the right time can help get round this.
Ive kept all that really simple and vague, more to make the point that Microdosing EPO is not what it might be first perceived to be on gut reaction (as that is what I got an impression is what you were leaning towards).
Also, this little description was a 'one off', just imagine how complex it gets in full detail rather than loose layman's terms, plus when you're continually having to maniuplate values and re-transfuse to keep the advantages. No wonder why some of these 'doctors' are so bloody expensive!!0 -
Contador is the Greatest0
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The athlete would appeal to CAS ( Court of Arbitration in Sport) I think. That is the end of the road unless there is an appeal on procedural grounds (very rare) which would be made to a Swiss Federal Court.Pross wrote:One thing I am confused about here is the process. My understanding is the doping agencies pass evidence to the national governing body for the sport in question (so US cycling in this case) and that they then give a sanction. The UCI either ratifies that sanction or appeals it to WADA (as per the Bertie case). If upheld the athlete can appeal to WADA. Is this correct? If so I assume all USADA are doing is pulling the evidence together for US cycling to make the ultimate decision of what the sanction should be?0 -
ddraver wrote:Once again, it isnt all about you Rundy, My posts show that I disagree, no more, no less
Top of page 69 - Ok, that was asking you to give a solid answer, we re not politicians here, Maybe I've been with the Dutch too long but I find it easier when people just say what they mean!
Who said it was about me? That seems to be your go to insult, surely you can come up with something better then that.
No, the top of page 69 was you avoiding answering my post. You do it all the time when people's posts are too tough for you to respond intelligently to and still be able to stick to your closed minded opinion.0 -
Pross wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Luckao, I got the numbers from here: http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-englis ... ons/92692/ Though looking some more it appears that £38,000 is the average, which is almost double the cycling minimum.
Jez, I used League Two because they do not have the huge salaries at the top to drive up the average, so it would compare a lot closer then the just under 50% difference between that and cyclings minimum.
Um, I suggest you redo 'the math'. Other than for a neo-pro the minimum salary is 35,000 euros which is roughly £28,000 i.e. 75% of the football average. The average pro tour salary (to compare apples with apples rather than oranges) is 70,000 euros so double the minimum. Don't forget that cycling is also very equitable in that they pool prize money and split it among the team (both riding and back room). The biggest problem in payments to cyclists is the race organisers taking ages to pay out prize money. Comparing with football or the major US sports is completely unfair in any case as they all make far more money from sponsorship and TV deals than a minority sport like cycling. There seem to be plenty of people who want to be a pro cyclist considering they are having to work for such a pittence.
It's amazing how many things I have posted that you have ignored in this response. Some examples:
1) The simple list of a small portion of the profits ASO makes off of just the Tour and how it could easily share money with the teams. (oh, the payout is something like 3.4m, essentially pocket change to them)
2) the fact that the average in cycling is raised quite a bit because of the huge disparity in salary that does not exist in League Two.0 -
DNQ wrote:
The athlete would appeal to CAS ( Court of Arbitration in Sport) I think. That is the end of the road unless there is an appeal on procedural grounds (very rare) which would be made to a Swiss Federal Court.Pross wrote:One thing I am confused about here is the process. My understanding is the doping agencies pass evidence to the national governing body for the sport in question (so US cycling in this case) and that they then give a sanction. The UCI either ratifies that sanction or appeals it to WADA (as per the Bertie case). If upheld the athlete can appeal to WADA. Is this correct? If so I assume all USADA are doing is pulling the evidence together for US cycling to make the ultimate decision of what the sanction should be?
Doh, I meant CAS. It was more whether it is the Anti Doping Agency or the national governing body who would ultimately sanction LA that I'm unsure of.0 -
No really, it was me asking you a straight question (which you still have nt answered). I know, I wrote it remember?
Anyway, over it now!
If we don't feed him will he go away do you think? Appears to have largely worked for Coroney and Cycling 2580...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
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ddraver wrote:No really, it was me asking you a straight question (which you still have nt answered). I know, I wrote it remember?
Anyway, over it now!
If we don't feed him will he go away do you think? Appears to have largely worked for Coroney and Cycling 2580...
It's interesting how you keep avoiding it and making excuses to not step up to it. Every time you do that it just makes it more obvious.
By the way I like how you edited your post from just an insult to add something about the topic. Did you suddenly get a bit of a clue about posting?
Finally I am done with you in this thread as its obvious you have no intention to try to discuss what's being posted and only will talk about things that suit your argument. It's cowardly at best.0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:Pross wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Luckao, I got the numbers from here: http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-englis ... ons/92692/ Though looking some more it appears that £38,000 is the average, which is almost double the cycling minimum.
Jez, I used League Two because they do not have the huge salaries at the top to drive up the average, so it would compare a lot closer then the just under 50% difference between that and cyclings minimum.
Um, I suggest you redo 'the math'. Other than for a neo-pro the minimum salary is 35,000 euros which is roughly £28,000 i.e. 75% of the football average. The average pro tour salary (to compare apples with apples rather than oranges) is 70,000 euros so double the minimum. Don't forget that cycling is also very equitable in that they pool prize money and split it among the team (both riding and back room). The biggest problem in payments to cyclists is the race organisers taking ages to pay out prize money. Comparing with football or the major US sports is completely unfair in any case as they all make far more money from sponsorship and TV deals than a minority sport like cycling. There seem to be plenty of people who want to be a pro cyclist considering they are having to work for such a pittence.
It's amazing how many things I have posted that you have ignored in this response. Some examples:
1) The simple list of a small portion of the profits ASO makes off of just the Tour and how it could easily share money with the teams. (oh, the payout is something like 3.4m, essentially pocket change to them)
2) the fact that the average in cycling is raised quite a bit because of the huge disparity in salary that does not exist in League Two.
1. Commercial organisation that runs the biggest event in its sport but doesn't share it among the competitors is hardly unique to cycling. In tennis the US, Australian and Frnech Opens only pay out in the region of 15% of their revenue in prize money (Wimbledon doesn't publish the information). I'm sure it's the same in many other sports.
2. Your assertion that pro tour cyclists earn "about half" what a Division 2 footballer earns was so far wide of the mark as to make the argument over using average earnings in one and minimum in another pretty much irrelevant. Besides, I suspect wages will vary considerably from club to club in the division as well as player to player. Even down in the Conference wages can vary from £100 to £700 per week.0 -
Nah, the boss walked in....
Are you talking about Armstrongs Tactics? - I think they were delaying tactics and it appears the judge agreed. THe system is the system and he's known that for years. After USADA comes CAS...which is entirely independent. If he said he was going to ignore USADA and just wait until CAS decide then that would make more sense.
RE Football - Not a fair comparison, you re talking about a lower league in one country vs a global sport, it's too complicated to make a direct comparison. There is no equivalent of ASO in League 2 football, Do you mean the FA should pay more/less to the teams for the TV rights (which in League 2 are pretty poor, not much League 2 football on Telly) or UEFA or FIFA? Who? Too many differences...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Pross wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Pross wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Luckao, I got the numbers from here: http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-englis ... ons/92692/ Though looking some more it appears that £38,000 is the average, which is almost double the cycling minimum.
Jez, I used League Two because they do not have the huge salaries at the top to drive up the average, so it would compare a lot closer then the just under 50% difference between that and cyclings minimum.
Um, I suggest you redo 'the math'. Other than for a neo-pro the minimum salary is 35,000 euros which is roughly £28,000 i.e. 75% of the football average. The average pro tour salary (to compare apples with apples rather than oranges) is 70,000 euros so double the minimum. Don't forget that cycling is also very equitable in that they pool prize money and split it among the team (both riding and back room). The biggest problem in payments to cyclists is the race organisers taking ages to pay out prize money. Comparing with football or the major US sports is completely unfair in any case as they all make far more money from sponsorship and TV deals than a minority sport like cycling. There seem to be plenty of people who want to be a pro cyclist considering they are having to work for such a pittence.
It's amazing how many things I have posted that you have ignored in this response. Some examples:
1) The simple list of a small portion of the profits ASO makes off of just the Tour and how it could easily share money with the teams. (oh, the payout is something like 3.4m, essentially pocket change to them)
2) the fact that the average in cycling is raised quite a bit because of the huge disparity in salary that does not exist in League Two.
1. Commercial organisation that runs the biggest event in its sport but doesn't share it among the competitors is hardly unique to cycling. In tennis the US, Australian and Frnech Opens only pay out in the region of 15% of their revenue in prize money (Wimbledon doesn't publish the information). I'm sure it's the same in many other sports.
2. Your assertion that pro tour cyclists earn "about half" what a Division 2 footballer earns was so far wide of the mark as to make the argument over using average earnings in one and minimum in another pretty much irrelevant. Besides, I suspect wages will vary considerably from club to club in the division as well as player to player. Even down in the Conference wages can vary from £100 to £700 per week.
1) Tennis is not a team sport. I specifically mentioned team sports as individual sports do not have salaries.
2) The mistake I made in my calculation does not make it irrelevant, unless you prefer to see the current situation never change. Only the top guys making real money, the organizers and UCI making big money, sponsors leaving the sport constantly, teams falling apart due to money, etc. £7,200 a year difference is not even close to the Difference between the €38,500 minimum and the reported €5m of Contador, €2m of the Schlecks or €1.2m of Gilbert.0 -
So let me get this straight - you think race organisers like ASO should put more of their money back into the teams. Do you mean as prize money or just like the TV revenue for football rights getting split amongst clubs? If the latter you are expecting a commercial organisation to fund what is effectively an advertising campaign for various companies. Cycling is pretty much unique in that the teams are not based around a tangible place, they are just a mobile advertising hoarding. Why should ASO pay money to help the companies that sponsor teams? If the teams want the best riders in order to win races and gain publicity then it is up to them to pay what is required. There's plenty of people who would jump a the chance to earn 35,000 euros a year + a share of prize money. No-one is forcing these people to ride a bike for a living, if the wage is so bad they could always go and work in an office.
As for teams falling apart and losing sponsorship - perhaps the actions of certain riders and their teams together with the negative publicity they have bought are the problem there.0 -
ddraver wrote:No really, it was me asking you a straight question (which you still have nt answered). I know, I wrote it remember?
Anyway, over it now!
If we don't feed him will he go away do you think? Appears to have largely worked for Coroney and Cycling 2580...
I'm still here and don't worry. When the $shit hits the fan with doping charges against UK Postal I'll be all over it.
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ddraver wrote:Do you ever fancy commenting on the actual racing?
You mentioned me so I thought I would say hi.0 -
cycling5280 wrote:ddraver wrote:No really, it was me asking you a straight question (which you still have nt answered). I know, I wrote it remember?
Anyway, over it now!
If we don't feed him will he go away do you think? Appears to have largely worked for Coroney and Cycling 2580...
I'm still here and don't worry. When the $shoot hits the fan with doping charges against UK Postal I'll be all over it.
I hope you're prepared for a long wait then. That Reuters journalist was right, it does appear the Sky doping rumours are being pushed through from across the pond. Presumably trying to deflect from the perilous state of their own favourite son.0 -
Pross wrote:cycling5280 wrote:ddraver wrote:No really, it was me asking you a straight question (which you still have nt answered). I know, I wrote it remember?
Anyway, over it now!
If we don't feed him will he go away do you think? Appears to have largely worked for Coroney and Cycling 2580...
I'm still here and don't worry. When the $shoot hits the fan with doping charges against UK Postal I'll be all over it.
I hope you're prepared for a long wait then. That Reuters journalist was right, it does appear the Sky doping rumours are being pushed through from across the pond. Presumably trying to deflect from the perilous state of their own favourite son.
HAHA...that's awesome that you think speculation about Wiggins being clean or not has something to do with trying to get the attention away from LA. Now that's a stretch and a bunch of BS. Anyone who has followed cycling can't help but be reminded of the US Postal team when they saw UK Postal drilling it last Saturday. BTW - I don't truly think Wiggins is doping.0 -
Yeah it might have looked the same but if you look at the figures you realise that it wasn't the same. Now that doesn't prove there is no doping but it does suggest things are very different to the days of US Postal.cycling5280 wrote:Pross wrote:cycling5280 wrote:ddraver wrote:No really, it was me asking you a straight question (which you still have nt answered). I know, I wrote it remember?
Anyway, over it now!
If we don't feed him will he go away do you think? Appears to have largely worked for Coroney and Cycling 2580...
I'm still here and don't worry. When the $shoot hits the fan with doping charges against UK Postal I'll be all over it.
I hope you're prepared for a long wait then. That Reuters journalist was right, it does appear the Sky doping rumours are being pushed through from across the pond. Presumably trying to deflect from the perilous state of their own favourite son.
HAHA...that's awesome that you think speculation about Wiggins being clean or not has something to do with trying to get the attention away from LA. Now that's a stretch and a bunch of BS. Anyone who has followed cycling can't help but be reminded of the US Postal team when they saw UK Postal drilling it last Saturday. BTW - I don't truly think Wiggins is doping.0 -
As somebody who never saw US Postal in their prime, are Sky really comparable to in terms of performance? I know they're currently dominating the GC, only it's not like they've been dictating the entire race for the last 10 days. They did rip the peloton apart on stage 7. It doesn't really cause me to see them as some sort of juggernaut. I see it as their top men being the best of a weaker field.0
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Luckao wrote:As somebody who never saw US Postal in their prime, are Sky really comparable to in terms of performance?
Relative to the rest of the peloton?
We don't know till we hit some proper mountains. People are talking about US postal style ride on a 6km climb, when they would do it on 18km climbs.
The team performance on Sunday suggests probably not, given that Wiggins had to chase Evans down himself.0 -
I'd like to believe Rubiera was clean when he was a workhorse for LA. I think most of US Postal was doping so is it possible Rubiera raced clean and still worked as hard as he did? Super nice guy...one of the nicest pros I've met.0
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cycling5280 wrote:I'd like to believe Rubiera was clean when he was a workhorse for LA. I think most of US Postal was doping so is it possible Rubiera raced clean and still worked as hard as he did? Super nice guy...one of the nicest pros I've met.
Based on all the comments from former riders if you wanted to make the tour team you had to dope0 -
cycling5280 wrote:I'd like to believe Rubiera was clean when he was a workhorse for LA. I think most of US Postal was doping so is it possible Rubiera raced clean and still worked as hard as he did? Super nice guy...one of the nicest pros I've met.
Nice blokes cheat at sport too."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0
