Giro Stage 3 *spoiler*
Comments
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woodford2barbican wrote:The rule which allowed Phinney to not cross the finish line under his own power - I presume that does not apply in the final stage? Abdoujaparov crash in '91 tdf comes to mind.
It's a newer rule than that.
I still like the idea that they still have to cross the line with a bike under their own steam, regardless.
You can't cross the line on your own? Don't start.0 -
Simmotino wrote:It's a shame the rider taken out wasn't someone other than Cavendish.
Perhaps then the observations (from both sides of the MC love/hate fence) would be a little more subjective :roll:
Your right in your conclusion but if you run back to the incident photos on this thread you will see more than Cav "taken out" he was the first.
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Ron Stuart wrote:Your right in your conclusion but if you run back to the incident photos on this thread you will see more than Cav "taken out" he was the first.
[pedant]
Cav was the rider taken out, the rest just fell over him/each other
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Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone see the Farne rider bunny-hop Cav?
http://www.steephill.tv/players/gazzett ... 56&yr=2012
@ 1:35
Shows Cavendish has lost some weight...
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Simmotino wrote:Ron Stuart wrote:Your right in your conclusion but if you run back to the incident photos on this thread you will see more than Cav "taken out" he was the first.
[pedant]
Cav was the rider taken out, the rest just fell over him/each other
[/pedant]
Cheers, you made me laugh 0 -
iainf72 wrote:It's an interesting puzzle. Someone who doesn't like Cavendish (there's a lot of them). The question is, would it be someone who comes across as a bit thick normally or is it someone smart enough to pretend to be a particualary stupid teenager.
And Iain neatly outs himself 0 -
I saw that live last night and I was dancing round the living room cursing Ferrari. My wife's Italian and she thought I meant the car.
That lad should be booted out of the race, to endanger so many riders at this level? Sorry son but you should stick to your local club on a sunday afternoon.
Absolutely disgusted and I feel genuinely sorry for all the lads who got dragged down. Even Gossy was denied a clean victory.'I started with nothing and still have most of it left.'0 -
Ron Stuart wrote:iainf72 wrote:You can't stop this kind of thing happening.
Everyone needs to stop overreacting about this. It's a racing incident. If Ferrari had gone "oh, god, sorry everyone, my bad" this would've all ended. But he didn't so it's now a big deal.
Everyone knows sprinting is dangerous. Isn't that part of it's charm? Elbow to elbow at 60km/h, trying to find a gap, bit of barging and holding your nerve is part of it. Sometimes it goes wrong and people fall.
Iain, I normally look up to your posts but here your wrong.
Ferrari's switching is forbidden hence he was penalised. We could talk more about appropriate penalties and consistency but not now. It's only a racing incident in as much as it happened it doesn't excuse it.
Everyone knows that F1 is dangerous and what has happened in that sport in the past is anything but charming and if your trying to suggest that that the Ferrari's crash had some sort of charm then my friend you have some sort of weird taste in entertainment. Formula One racing has done massive amounts to take "the charm" of crashes injury and death out of the sport and strangely enough it's still very popular.
No rider was penalised as a result of the corner crash the previous stage finish, why? because it was rightly deemed to be a racing incident (over cooked a corner). Ferrari was found guilty of riding like a nutter and the sport wants rid of this type of riding and rightly so.
Indeed,there is a general trend in other sports to higher safety levels too, or at least, a trend to call for higher saftey levels, take ice hockey, (arguably) the best player in the world was out for about 12 months with post concussion trauma, so naturally, there are calls for getting tough on headshots.
Fundamentally, a lot of fans tune in to see the best riders in the world sprint/players play, the hustle and bustle is exciting, but I should bet most cycling fans don't want to see the best sprinter in the world taken out by some relatively unknown rider who's decided to mix it up in the sprint.
The UCI/race organizers should be protecting their stars a bit better, and if sending riders home from races for riding dangerously would help prevent this type of riding then I'm all for it. We don't want a situation where a great rider suffers a terrible injury because of lousy un-careful riding, as the crash on the corner in stage 2 made clear, sprinting is dangerous enough without stupid riding.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
See Ferrari clipped out.
Contador is the Greatest0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
ok it may be going too far to say he should be thrown off the race, especially if idiocy like that is covered by the rule book and it was duly applied. I assume this was so.
But to say "well thats just how sprinting is" is nonsense. It's very obvious from the footage that Cav had no chance to do anything other than crash and it wasn't as if Ferrari miscalculated and just touched his wheel by 1cm say, he scythed straight into him. I don't mind Cav not winning in the slightest, doubtless he will some other time somewhere. But I do mind someone taking down about 15 riders at high speed from carelessness, which was the very predictable result of bringing down someone near the front of the sprint like that- he was very lucky not to cause serious injuries and it remains to be seen whether he has ended Phinney's race.
So I still think the guy's a tosser. Especially when he claims to have done nothing wrong.
Not sure what to think of what Kelly was saying. He was less forgiving of Abdou when he was still riding.
Bottom line IMHO, if Phinney isn't badly injured then the guy should apologize profusely (obviously- you don't get relagated to last for being especially clever, do you?) and we should then forget about it.0 -
The simple solution is to get rid of all of these stupid flat finishes.
Kelly was saying these things happen. And they do. If it's a pattern of behaviour, then you look at it differently.
Does anyone think Ferrari meant to make anyone crash?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Exactly.
I mean, heaven forbid a rider makes a mistake in the rough and tumble of a sprint finish.
We don't get all excited just because it's quick - it is dangerous too!
Now for sure, Ferrari rode like a t!t. I'm sure he knows that, and the peloton will react accordingly (I imagine he'll find it tough to get into position for the next few sprints).
'tis the rough & tumble (literally) of sprints.
S'why chaps like Boonen have to bar up and grit their teeth before they decide to go for a sprint.0 -
The problem with the Giro in particular, probably even more than the Tour, is that every team brings someone who thinks that they can sprint. Also the finishes in the Giro tend to be a little narrower and more technical. So you end up with 15+ 'sprinters' plus teammates in too small a space. Added to the mix you have third rate sprinters, like Ferrari, who get overexcited at playing with the big boys.
In days gone by the likes of Ferrari would have chanced their arm in a breakaway, but nowadays the break is a bunch of no hopes who go too early to ensure they get on TV. So instead he takes big risks to try and come fifth. Feilleu is a good example of this. Not so longer ago he took the Yellow Jersey in a breakaway, but now he is content to ride the sprint like a maniac.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I don't want to see people hurt, but crashes add to the spectacle. That may be an uncomfortable truth, but that's how I feel. Cav can say what he likes but he's caused them previously, it's just part of the game. Sure Ferrari rode like a twat, but it happens, get over it.
This thread has about 4 posts on the stage, and about 200 on the aftermath, so don't tell me we don't feel a little like this.0 -
iainf72 wrote:The simple solution is to get rid of all of these stupid flat finishes.
What is that going to solve? I really don't think that's the answer. Rider education and massive penalties for reckless riding are surely the way forward?Does anyone think Ferrari meant to make anyone crash?
No. But he was reckless as to whether his actions would cause a crash. I was a Police Officer for 14 years, and recklessness is a key point to prove in many crimes. You simply cannot do something without regard for the consequences of your actions.0 -
I'm sort of with Iain on this. It was a sprint, people are acting instinctively. Ferrari sees a rider (Farrar) going past him quickly with no-one immediately on his wheel and sees a chance to jump on the back. He doesn't look properly and we all know the conclusion. Decisions are being made in fractions of a second and riders get things wrong. No-one can seriously suggest it was a move intended to cause harm. However, I do think it needs harsher penalties when people do make these errors in judgement and relegation on the stage for a rider who came in outside the first 3 isn't really sufficient. A large fine should be a minimum.
I'm not convinced about comparisons with Cav's crash in the Tour de Suisse (2010 not 2009 as some have said). Yes, he veered off his line and was at fault but it was a far less eratic move than Ferrari's.0 -
Pross wrote:I'm sort of with Iain on this. It was a sprint, people are acting instinctively. Ferrari sees a rider (Farrar) going past him quickly with no-one immediately on his wheel and sees a chance to jump on the back. He doesn't look properly and we all know the conclusion. Decisions are being made in fractions of a second and riders get things wrong. No-one can seriously suggest it was a move intended to cause harm. However, I do think it needs harsher penalties when people do make these errors in judgement and relegation on the stage for a rider who came in outside the first 3 isn't really sufficient. A large fine should be a minimum.
I'm not convinced about comparisons with Cav's crash in the Tour de Suisse (2010 not 2009 as some have said). Yes, he veered off his line and was at fault but it was a far less eratic move than Ferrari's.
Ferrari's move didn't even make sense. If you watch the video again you'll see he had a clear lane to the left. he should have gone left and accelerated, not swerve to the right to get around Tyler - it was much further to go.
Someone needs to remind him that the fastest way from A to B is in a straight line.0 -
That is the last thing all the flag-waving Cavendish fans would want though, as it would mean that he would never win another race again. After all, he is hardly an all-round bike rider.iainf72 wrote:The simple solution is to get rid of all of these stupid flat finishes.
Quite so. On the subject of 'patterns' it is interesting how so many crashes in sprint finishes seem to have had one common factor: Mark Cavendish...iainf72 wrote:Kelly was saying these things happen. And they do. If it's a pattern of behaviour, then you look at it differently.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
That is the last thing all the flag-waving Cavendish fans would want though, as it would mean that he would never win another race again. After all, he is hardly an all-round bike rider.iainf72 wrote:The simple solution is to get rid of all of these stupid flat finishes.
Quite so. On the subject of 'patterns' it is interesting how so many crashes in sprint finishes seem to have had one common factor: Mark Cavendish...iainf72 wrote:Kelly was saying these things happen. And they do. If it's a pattern of behaviour, then you look at it differently.
Boonen was involved in more sprint crashes over the past two years than Cavendish and he doesn't get any sh!t.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:That is the last thing all the flag-waving Cavendish fans would want though, as it would mean that he would never win another race again. After all, he is hardly an all-round bike rider.
Bernie...are you Cornoyemade? :shock:Quite so. On the subject of 'patterns' it is interesting how so many crashes in sprint finishes seem to have had one common factor: Mark Cavendish...
But not surprising. He's stupidly fast, therefore he gets himself into a position where other riders struggle to deal with him. No different really to a fast attacking footballer being brought down in the box.0 -
To me it's simple. Ferrari made a mistake, he either didn't look or he misjudged the speed that Cav was going..either is stupid but at the end just a mistake made in the heat of the moment. He deserves to be fined and receive a large telling off and hopefully he'll think twice next time.
Not coming out and apologising for it on the other hand is shameful behaviour. If not to the riders who crashed then at least to those poor sods who picked Cav for PTP."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
Quite so.Pross wrote:I'm sort of with Iain on this. It was a sprint, people are acting instinctively. Ferrari sees a rider (Farrar) going past him quickly with no-one immediately on his wheel and sees a chance to jump on the back. He doesn't look properly and we all know the conclusion. Decisions are being made in fractions of a second and riders get things wrong.
It might have been less 'erratic', but was far more calculated and aggressive, as the only reason Cavendish moved across was to try to lean on Haussler. (As was clear from the overhead shot). The riders certainly know 'what is what' and in Cavendish's case they all held a two minute protest about his aggressive riding and lack of respect for the safety of others before the start of the next stage. I wonder if anything similar will happen tomorrow?Pross wrote:I'm not convinced about comparisons with Cav's crash in the Tour de Suisse... Yes, he veered off his line and was at fault but it was a far less eratic move than Ferrari's.
To be honest, the main conclusion that can be drawn from all this is that many British bike racing fans are getting as blinkered and jingoistic as their fellow football supporters!0 -
Do I detect just a teeny weeny hint of anti-Cavendish bias here? Are you developing a new target for your obsessive behaviour now that LA is starting to fade into history? Could success and popularity be the common factor?BikingBernie wrote:
That is the last thing all the flag-waving Cavendish fans would want thoughiainf72 wrote:The simple solution is to get rid of all of these stupid flat finishes.BikingBernie wrote:
Quite so. On the subject of 'patterns' it is interesting how so many crashes in sprint finishes seem to have had one common factor: Mark Cavendish...iainf72 wrote:Kelly was saying these things happen. And they do. If it's a pattern of behaviour, then you look at it differently.
I presume you must have a graph somewhere to show us how this crash was in fact Cavendish's fault :roll:0 -
The Mad Rapper wrote:Ferrari's move didn't even make sense. If you watch the video again you'll see he had a clear lane to the left. he should have gone left and accelerated, not swerve to the right to get around Tyler - it was much further to go.
Someone needs to remind him that the fastest way from A to B is in a straight line.
If he had gone left, he'd be riding into the wind. By going right, he's trying to use Farrar's acceleration into the wind and then come past both Goss and Farrar by the time they have got to the line.0 -
Do you also think that it was also shameful the way Cavendish tried to play down his responsibility for causing the crash in the Tour of Switzerland? Was it also shameful the way that he spat at the feet of those who criticised his riding?inkyfingers wrote:Not coming out and apologising for it on the other hand is shameful behaviour. If not to the riders who crashed then at least to those poor sods who picked Cav for PTP.0 -
No, it is just that blind jingoism gets right on my tits...bompington wrote:Do I detect just a teeny weeny hint of anti-Cavendish bias here? Are you developing a new target for your obsessive behaviour now that LA is starting to fade into history? Could success and popularity be the common factor?0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Do you also think that it was also shameful the way Cavendish tried to play down his responsibility for causing the crash in the Tour of Switzerland? Was it also shameful the way that he spat at the feet of those who criticised his riding?inkyfingers wrote:Not coming out and apologising for it on the other hand is shameful behaviour. If not to the riders who crashed then at least to those poor sods who picked Cav for PTP.
Not sure what Cavendish has to do with it. I'm not a Cav apologist but the blame for that crash was far less easy to determine than it was in this case, and didn't he apologise in the end? if he didn't then shame on him too, but not apologising because you didn't think you were in the wrong and saying that you don't care what happens behind you are different things.
I also thought that the spitting story eventually turned out to be false, but I can't remember where I read that."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
bompington wrote:
Do I detect just a teeny weeny hint of anti-Cavendish bias here? Are you developing a new target for your obsessive behaviour now that LA is starting to fade into history? Could success and popularity be the common factor?BikingBernie wrote:
That is the last thing all the flag-waving Cavendish fans would want thoughiainf72 wrote:The simple solution is to get rid of all of these stupid flat finishes.BikingBernie wrote:
Quite so. On the subject of 'patterns' it is interesting how so many crashes in sprint finishes seem to have had one common factor: Mark Cavendish...iainf72 wrote:Kelly was saying these things happen. And they do. If it's a pattern of behaviour, then you look at it differently.
I presume you must have a graph somewhere to show us how this crash was in fact Cavendish's fault :roll:
Thank you for your post - just what I was thinking as I read that tripe. I'm sure there are others.
Pity how a good discussion has to be spammed with this, and there was I hoping this forum would be better now the Armstrong campaign had subsided.0 -
The Mad Rapper wrote:Pross wrote:I'm sort of with Iain on this. It was a sprint, people are acting instinctively. Ferrari sees a rider (Farrar) going past him quickly with no-one immediately on his wheel and sees a chance to jump on the back. He doesn't look properly and we all know the conclusion. Decisions are being made in fractions of a second and riders get things wrong. No-one can seriously suggest it was a move intended to cause harm. However, I do think it needs harsher penalties when people do make these errors in judgement and relegation on the stage for a rider who came in outside the first 3 isn't really sufficient. A large fine should be a minimum.
I'm not convinced about comparisons with Cav's crash in the Tour de Suisse (2010 not 2009 as some have said). Yes, he veered off his line and was at fault but it was a far less eratic move than Ferrari's.
Ferrari's move didn't even make sense. If you watch the video again you'll see he had a clear lane to the left. he should have gone left and accelerated, not swerve to the right to get around Tyler - it was much further to go.
Someone needs to remind him that the fastest way from A to B is in a straight line.
It made sense in that he saw Farrar go past and presumably thought that would help lead him out. If he'd gone left he was on his own. It was just the fact that he didn't bother looking to see if anyone else had the same idea!0
