Any London left?

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  • garnett
    garnett Posts: 196
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    This is young generation of underclass children and teenagers who are so excluded from normal society that this awful behaviour isn't constrained. They don't feel part of society, so don't feel they have to abide by it. We continue to exclude them (post-punishment, obviously) at our peril.
    I think there has to be a mix of carrot and stick though. People do make it out of tough backgrounds. Toi me it seems there is just a strong peer-group pressure to resign yourself to petty crime instead.

    At the risk of losing all remaining credibility here, I blame marketing and advertising.

    I'd contend that this generation more than any other has to tally what they are told at school with what they are told by advertisers - be they promoting luxury items we all "deserve", or promoting the coolness and the ease with which material goods are obtained in the world of their music idols, together with the sponsorship deals afforded their sporting heroes.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,382
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Can't agree with this bit.
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Personally, while I think looting a Debenhams is one thing, looting a private owned shops, like the ones in Ealing, where most disgusting. Massive Starbucks fair game as long as no one gets hurt.

    Just because it's a big corporation, doesn't make it any less criminal or damaging to the community. Take the HMV in north London that was trashed. HMV is struggling as it is with people thinking they no longer have to pay for music. The staff (who won't be on big wages to start with) won't be able to work for days or even weeks, so will lose out.

    Larger shops will also start to move out of areas if they think it's too dangerous, undoing a lot of the regeneration that has gone on in the last 20-30 years in various parts of London.
    It is criminal and I'd rather no riot at all but honestly, seriously answer this. A riot has happened what would you rather see, McDonalds trashed or 'Gino's' an independent family owned restaurant?

    I see no difference between the two. Neither, it seems, do the looters. Local people and what they've worked to achieve lose out just the same. Take Subway for example: a big multinational chain, but they are run as franchises, so it's actually Dave Smith from Edmonton's shop, not Subway's.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:

    Wasn't a race riot. People of many cultures (except the Turks in Dalston) were involved. I don't even think it was entirely youths or teenagers - though they probably made up the majority.

    It is unpalatable but In Clapham it was a very specific demographic...'many cultures' would not be an accurate description at all.
    Were the cars that parked up BMW's?
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    rjsterry wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Can't agree with this bit.
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Personally, while I think looting a Debenhams is one thing, looting a private owned shops, like the ones in Ealing, where most disgusting. Massive Starbucks fair game as long as no one gets hurt.

    Just because it's a big corporation, doesn't make it any less criminal or damaging to the community. Take the HMV in north London that was trashed. HMV is struggling as it is with people thinking they no longer have to pay for music. The staff (who won't be on big wages to start with) won't be able to work for days or even weeks, so will lose out.

    Larger shops will also start to move out of areas if they think it's too dangerous, undoing a lot of the regeneration that has gone on in the last 20-30 years in various parts of London.
    It is criminal and I'd rather no riot at all but honestly, seriously answer this. A riot has happened what would you rather see, McDonalds trashed or 'Gino's' an independent family owned restaurant?

    I see no difference between the two. Neither, it seems, do the looters. Local people and what they've worked to achieve lose out just the same. Take Subway for example: a big multinational chain, but they are run as franchises, so it's actually Dave Smith from Edmonton's shop, not Subway's.
    McDonalds are also run as franchises...
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    Just seen this :shock:

    _54501023_012623830-2.jpg
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    rjsterry wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Can't agree with this bit.
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Personally, while I think looting a Debenhams is one thing, looting a private owned shops, like the ones in Ealing, where most disgusting. Massive Starbucks fair game as long as no one gets hurt.

    Just because it's a big corporation, doesn't make it any less criminal or damaging to the community. Take the HMV in north London that was trashed. HMV is struggling as it is with people thinking they no longer have to pay for music. The staff (who won't be on big wages to start with) won't be able to work for days or even weeks, so will lose out.

    Larger shops will also start to move out of areas if they think it's too dangerous, undoing a lot of the regeneration that has gone on in the last 20-30 years in various parts of London.
    It is criminal and I'd rather no riot at all but honestly, seriously answer this. A riot has happened what would you rather see, McDonalds trashed or 'Gino's' an independent family owned restaurant?

    I see no difference between the two. Neither, it seems, do the looters. Local people and what they've worked to achieve lose out just the same. Take Subway for example: a big multinational chain, but they are run as franchises, so it's actually Dave Smith from Edmonton's shop, not Subway's.
    Chicken shops didn't get hit. Just saying.

    But in all seriousness. You don't see any difference, I do. I agree on the franchise point. But I'm pretty sure that some barber shops, pubs and the like were left alone.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Following the fool I guess.

    Badly....

    Idiot
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

    What would Thora Hurd do?
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:

    Wasn't a race riot. People of many cultures (except the Turks in Dalston) were involved. I don't even think it was entirely youths or teenagers - though they probably made up the majority.

    It is unpalatable but In Clapham it was a very specific demographic...'many cultures' would not be an accurate description at all.
    Were the cars that parked up BMW's?

    I have no idea.
  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    rjsterry wrote:
    I see no difference between the two. Neither, it seems, do the looters. Local people and what they've worked to achieve lose out just the same.

    The looters robbed a charity shop on Lavender Hill.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    JonGinge wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Can't agree with this bit.
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Personally, while I think looting a Debenhams is one thing, looting a private owned shops, like the ones in Ealing, where most disgusting. Massive Starbucks fair game as long as no one gets hurt.

    Just because it's a big corporation, doesn't make it any less criminal or damaging to the community. Take the HMV in north London that was trashed. HMV is struggling as it is with people thinking they no longer have to pay for music. The staff (who won't be on big wages to start with) won't be able to work for days or even weeks, so will lose out.

    Larger shops will also start to move out of areas if they think it's too dangerous, undoing a lot of the regeneration that has gone on in the last 20-30 years in various parts of London.
    It is criminal and I'd rather no riot at all but honestly, seriously answer this. A riot has happened what would you rather see, McDonalds trashed or 'Gino's' an independent family owned restaurant?

    I see no difference between the two. Neither, it seems, do the looters. Local people and what they've worked to achieve lose out just the same. Take Subway for example: a big multinational chain, but they are run as franchises, so it's actually Dave Smith from Edmonton's shop, not Subway's.
    McDonalds are also run as franchises...

    Er no, they are not. I think there is one in Derby and that's it. Worked for McD's for 3 years, the drive through on London road, was always told McD's is not a franchise.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Er no, they are not. I think there is one in Derby and that's it. Worked for McD's for 3 years, the drive through on London road, was always told McD's is not a franchise.

    http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/about-us/franchise/why-choose-us.shtml
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Greg T wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Following the fool I guess.

    Badly....

    Idiot
    I've touched a nerve and you've been a little off with me lately (you had a go at me about pensions recently).

    If I have caused offense somewhere along the line, not sure where, then I apologise.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • garnett
    garnett Posts: 196
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:

    Wasn't a race riot. People of many cultures (except the Turks in Dalston) were involved. I don't even think it was entirely youths or teenagers - though they probably made up the majority.

    It is unpalatable but In Clapham it was a very specific demographic...'many cultures' would not be an accurate description at all.
    Were the cars that parked up BMW's?
    Funny because it's true - in all seriousness, I have pictures and the reg of a BMW that parked up and the driver and passenger (older than the others) went out, came back and dumped stuff, and they they went back.

    Got to decide whether it's worth reporting to the police. Sure I was seen taking the pictures, and if the police take 2 hours to tip up should they decide we reported them, well, I'm either going to the morgue or to prision.
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    JonGinge wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Can't agree with this bit.
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Personally, while I think looting a Debenhams is one thing, looting a private owned shops, like the ones in Ealing, where most disgusting. Massive Starbucks fair game as long as no one gets hurt.

    Just because it's a big corporation, doesn't make it any less criminal or damaging to the community. Take the HMV in north London that was trashed. HMV is struggling as it is with people thinking they no longer have to pay for music. The staff (who won't be on big wages to start with) won't be able to work for days or even weeks, so will lose out.

    Larger shops will also start to move out of areas if they think it's too dangerous, undoing a lot of the regeneration that has gone on in the last 20-30 years in various parts of London.
    It is criminal and I'd rather no riot at all but honestly, seriously answer this. A riot has happened what would you rather see, McDonalds trashed or 'Gino's' an independent family owned restaurant?

    I see no difference between the two. Neither, it seems, do the looters. Local people and what they've worked to achieve lose out just the same. Take Subway for example: a big multinational chain, but they are run as franchises, so it's actually Dave Smith from Edmonton's shop, not Subway's.
    McDonalds are also run as franchises...

    Er no, they are not. I think there is one in Derby and that's it. Worked for McD's for 3 years, the drive through on London road, was always told McD's is not a franchise.
    http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/static/pdf/aboutus/education/mcd_franchising.pdf
    51% - I win on the internet. Go me
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • sketchley
    sketchley Posts: 4,238
    JZed wrote:
    Just seen this :shock:

    _54501023_012623830-2.jpg

    Shocking isn't it. I'm surprised no one has been killed.

    Having seen that make we want to post this from a very close friend on Facebook last night who woke up one morning at 8.30am just over 16 years ago to a fire in his home in which he lost his wife and kids and ended up very badly burnt. One of the incidents that defined my life let alone his. He said,
    "I do not agree with riots. I think that people setting light to buildings & putting people's lives' at risk are out of order. If they had experienced what it is like to be trapped inside a burning house let alone loosing the ones you loved, would they still think they are big and clever?"
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    JZed wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Er no, they are not. I think there is one in Derby and that's it. Worked for McD's for 3 years, the drive through on London road, was always told McD's is not a franchise.

    http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/about-us/franchise/why-choose-us.shtml

    Damn.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • asprilla
    asprilla Posts: 8,440
    Most importantly, I'm going out for drinks in Wimbledon tomorrow. Will it be riot free?
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
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  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    Sketchley wrote:
    Shocking isn't it. I'm surprised no one has been killed.

    Not really sure what it has to do with the riots but the chap who was shot last night in Croydon has died.
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    If I have caused offense somewhere along the line, not sure where, then I apologise.

    I'm not offended.

    Saying that starbucks is fair game for a looting is just wrong.
    Massive Starbucks fair game as long as no one gets hurt.

    It's just wrong. You must get this.

    Is it worse to smash up a small shop or a Starbucks - doesn't matter - it's binary - it's wrong.
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

    What would Thora Hurd do?
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Asprilla wrote:
    Most importantly, I'm going out for drinks in Wimbledon tomorrow. Will it be riot free?
    Not sure, and I don't truly understand why Colliers Wood was hit and not Wimbeldon. If it kicks off again in another area and you're out in Wimbledon I'd just go straight home.

    I'm a little worried.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Wrath Rob
    Wrath Rob Posts: 2,918
    Just been listening to an interview on BBC with Shaun Bailey. The man spoke the most sense I've heard on the riots. Basically "Restore law and order and then as a community we need to look at why these kids feel it is OK to attack the very community they live in. The reason is that we have nationalised child care and some parents don't feel the need to instil respect for their community in their children. We need to ask if that's what we want in the 21st century. Or do we take some responsibility and address theses issues ourselves?".
    FCN3: Titanium Qoroz.
  • sketchley
    sketchley Posts: 4,238
    JZed wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Er no, they are not. I think there is one in Derby and that's it. Worked for McD's for 3 years, the drive through on London road, was always told McD's is not a franchise.

    http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/about-us/franchise/why-choose-us.shtml

    Some are some aren't. The business model when I worked there (20+ years ago at college) was that they acquired land, built a restaurant put in a manager and then when all up and running lent (literally a loan) the manager the money to acquire the restaurant. At which point they would use the equity from the loan to build another and repeat until saturation.
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • kelsen
    kelsen Posts: 2,003
    Greg T wrote:
    Is it worse to smash up a small shop or a Starbucks - doesn't matter - it's binary - it's wrong.

    +1 There're better ways to make your protest than to run around like a mindless f*ckwit smashing stuff. Not that this was the agenda anyway. They just wanted to smash stuff. End of.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Asprilla wrote:
    Most importantly, I'm going out for drinks in Wimbledon tomorrow. Will it be riot free?
    Not sure, and I don't truly understand why Colliers Wood was hit and not Wimbeldon. If it kicks off again in another area and you're out in Wimbledon I'd just go straight home.

    I'm a little worried.

    After Clapham Junction, which is empty of stock, the next decent shopping place I can think of is Wimbledon...so if I was looting that is where I would head too next after checking the bus time-table.
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Garnett wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    This is young generation of underclass children and teenagers who are so excluded from normal society that this awful behaviour isn't constrained. They don't feel part of society, so don't feel they have to abide by it. We continue to exclude them (post-punishment, obviously) at our peril.
    I think there has to be a mix of carrot and stick though. People do make it out of tough backgrounds. Toi me it seems there is just a strong peer-group pressure to resign yourself to petty crime instead.

    At the risk of losing all remaining credibility here, I blame marketing and advertising.

    I'd contend that this generation more than any other has to tally what they are told at school with what they are told by advertisers - be they promoting luxury items we all "deserve", or promoting the coolness and the ease with which material goods are obtained in the world of their music idols, together with the sponsorship deals afforded their sporting heroes.

    I really think theres some truth to this.
    FCN 4 PX SL Pro SRAM Red
    FCN 8 Scott Sportster '05
  • sketchley
    sketchley Posts: 4,238
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Asprilla wrote:
    Most importantly, I'm going out for drinks in Wimbledon tomorrow. Will it be riot free?
    Not sure, and I don't truly understand why Colliers Wood was hit and not Wimbeldon. If it kicks off again in another area and you're out in Wimbledon I'd just go straight home.

    I'm a little worried.

    After Clapham Junction, which is empty of stock, the next decent shopping place I can think of is Wimbledon...so if I was looting that is where I would head too next after checking the bus time-table.

    Only problem is getting the stuff home.....
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • clarkey cat
    clarkey cat Posts: 3,641
    wish I hadn't taken off my panniers now.
    Dolan Mythos
  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    Wrath Rob wrote:
    Just been listening to an interview on BBC with Shaun Bailey. The man spoke the most sense I've heard on the riots. Basically "Restore law and order and then as a community we need to look at why these kids feel it is OK to attack the very community they live in. The reason is that we have nationalised child care and some parents don't feel the need to instil respect for their community in their children. We need to ask if that's what we want in the 21st century. Or do we take some responsibility and address theses issues ourselves?".

    First and foremost it comes down to crap parenting. Regardless of claims of poverty or a lack of social mobility, good parents do not produce children who consider it acceptable to behave like this.

    Thereafter one or more of the following:
    Reliance on the welfare state - no concept of needing to work to own nice things
    No personal responsibility - but excellent bleating about "rights"
    Laziness
    Materialism - but not wanting to have to do the work to buy the material goods
    Softly softly hand-wringing nonsense - leading to a total lack of discipline and respect.

    I've avoided commenting so far, but I wonder whether those who supported the thugs and yobs in the student "protests" stick to their position faced with riots on their own door-steps - their property being smashed up this time.

    Fundamentally both these riots and those riots came down to the same thing - irresponsible thugs wanting any excuse for a good ruck and a bit of destruction and violence that they can get away with.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Yesterday in Croydon, during the riots, someone got shot while in their car and has died.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • asprilla
    asprilla Posts: 8,440
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Asprilla wrote:
    Most importantly, I'm going out for drinks in Wimbledon tomorrow. Will it be riot free?
    Not sure, and I don't truly understand why Colliers Wood was hit and not Wimbeldon. If it kicks off again in another area and you're out in Wimbledon I'd just go straight home.

    I'm a little worried.

    After Clapham Junction, which is empty of stock, the next decent shopping place I can think of is Wimbledon...so if I was looting that is where I would head too next after checking the bus time-table.

    Well hopefully they will make it down there tonight and the light drizzle forecast for Wednesday will put them off.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
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