Any London left?

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  • Gussio
    Gussio Posts: 2,452
    kamiokande wrote:
    I read that paramedics and firemen were being attacked by the rioters. Looting is one thing, attacking those that are trying to help is sickening. Surely a few soldiers could be attached to each fire truck/ambulance so they can protect them while they work. Free up the police to concentrate on the rioters.

    Attacks upon the emergency services are deeply depressing. What a mess :cry:
  • Dan_K
    Dan_K Posts: 19
    GB Cycles in Croydon got done too.

    I blame Wiggle.
    http://aspiring-rouleur.blogspot.com
    https://twitter.com/DKNWHY
  • mudcow007
    mudcow007 Posts: 3,861
    bails87 wrote:
    Problems with water cannons according to people on Sky News last night:

    1. We don't have any

    2. They're not licensed for use, and have not been used for a very long time, if ever, on the British mianland.

    3. Even if they were used, where do you put them? Police in cars and vans can't keep up with the 'smash and grab' nature of the violence, so how does a great big trundling water tanker keep up?

    fire engine :wink:
    Keeping it classy since '83
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,346
    Rolf F wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    The political impact of conceding that the police no longer have control of the city would be huge.

    Would it? The yobs have a technological advantage (in comms) that they didn't before which means that it is understandably harder for the police to deal with it than in the past. Bringing in the Army seems a logical reaction.

    Quite honestly, I'd have thought the political impact of keeping fingers crossed and hoping that the police will sort it out and failing is going to be rather greater than just bringing in the army and getting it sorted out quick sharp.


    Has the British Army ever been deployed on the streets on mainland Britain before?

    It would be an enormous step to do so.

    To be honest the situation doesn't seem *that* bad to require military intervention.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • sketchley
    sketchley Posts: 4,238
    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF ... 748773e8f7
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • sketchley
    sketchley Posts: 4,238
    TailWindHome wrote:

    Has the British Army ever been deployed on the streets on mainland Britain before?

    "Since the suppression of Jacobitism in 1745, the army has played little role in British domestic politics (except for the Curragh mutiny), and, other than in Ireland, has seldom been deployed against internal threats to the state (one notorious exception being the Peterloo Massacre)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... itish_Army
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    edited August 2011
    mudcow007 wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    Problems with water cannons according to people on Sky News last night:

    1. We don't have any

    2. They're not licensed for use, and have not been used for a very long time, if ever, on the British mianland.

    3. Even if they were used, where do you put them? Police in cars and vans can't keep up with the 'smash and grab' nature of the violence, so how does a great big trundling water tanker keep up?

    fire engine :wink:

    Also, just been tweeted about Cameron's imminent speech:
    @stebax wrote:
    Angry Face. Dismissive karate chop gesture. "let's be clear about this".Can't wait
    and
    David Cameron's about to make a statement. If he claims that #riotcleanup is an example of the Big Society I may burn down a shop myself
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    mudcow007 wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    Problems with water cannons according to people on Sky News last night:

    1. We don't have any

    2. They're not licensed for use, and have not been used for a very long time, if ever, on the British mianland.

    3. Even if they were used, where do you put them? Police in cars and vans can't keep up with the 'smash and grab' nature of the violence, so how does a great big trundling water tanker keep up?

    fire engine :wink:

    Airport fire engines and military fire engines have water canons. I don't think you need a licence to spray people with water - I guess the Home Sec would need to give the okay. Last time they were used was on the miners I think (not sure). certainly remember them being on TV in the late 70's.

    At what point does stopping the rioters become oppression?
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    bails87 wrote:
    mudcow007 wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    Problems with water cannons according to people on Sky News last night:

    1. We don't have any

    2. They're not licensed for use, and have not been used for a very long time, if ever, on the British mianland.

    3. Even if they were used, where do you put them? Police in cars and vans can't keep up with the 'smash and grab' nature of the violence, so how does a great big trundling water tanker keep up?

    fire engine :wink:

    A great big trundling water tanker? OK then, hands up who thinks they can run faster than a fire engine!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    gtvlusso wrote:
    At what point does stopping the rioters become oppression?

    Fairly soon I hope.

    Right now I think a bit of oppresion is what we need.
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

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  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    Rolf F wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    mudcow007 wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    Problems with water cannons according to people on Sky News last night:

    1. We don't have any

    2. They're not licensed for use, and have not been used for a very long time, if ever, on the British mianland.

    3. Even if they were used, where do you put them? Police in cars and vans can't keep up with the 'smash and grab' nature of the violence, so how does a great big trundling water tanker keep up?

    fire engine :wink:

    A great big trundling water tanker? OK then, hands up who thinks they can run faster than a fire engine!

    Clarification: a fire engine shooting out very high pressure water for 50 to 100 yards around it. Outrun that!
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    edited August 2011
    Rolf F wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    mudcow007 wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    Problems with water cannons according to people on Sky News last night:

    1. We don't have any

    2. They're not licensed for use, and have not been used for a very long time, if ever, on the British mianland.

    3. Even if they were used, where do you put them? Police in cars and vans can't keep up with the 'smash and grab' nature of the violence, so how does a great big trundling water tanker keep up?

    fire engine :wink:

    A great big trundling water tanker? OK then, hands up who thinks they can run faster than a fire engine!

    Down an 5 foot wide alleyway? Almost definitely.

    Edit: Fire engines have to be still while they're spraying water, because someone has to be holding the hose.

    Unless you're talking about the airport ones, in which case, what happens if a plane crashes?

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just what someone said on the news. He was the editor of the Mirror, not a civil security expert, so.....
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    JZed wrote:
    daviesee wrote:
    But how many are on call at any one time?

    Well considering they are increasing it to 13,000, I'm assuming there could have been 13,000 on the streets last night.

    But greater London is a huge area. How do you decide where to deploy them with multiple riots happening on top of the usual stuff that normally keeps them busy as it is?

    Face it. If all the youths of the MET area went on the rampage tonight nothing could be done to stop them. There is not enough manpower. Fact.
    I fear that horrible prospect and the resulting losses are a distinct possibility.
    The Police can do little about it and politicians even less as these youths have zero interest in what MPs do far less what they say.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,381
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    The political impact of conceding that the police no longer have control of the city would be huge.

    Would it? The yobs have a technological advantage (in comms) that they didn't before which means that it is understandably harder for the police to deal with it than in the past. Bringing in the Army seems a logical reaction.

    Quite honestly, I'd have thought the political impact of keeping fingers crossed and hoping that the police will sort it out and failing is going to be rather greater than just bringing in the army and getting it sorted out quick sharp.


    Has the British Army ever been deployed on the streets on mainland Britain before?

    It would be an enormous step to do so.

    To be honest the situation doesn't seem *that* bad to require military intervention.

    Don't know if it's the most recent, but the Queen Square Riot in Bristol in 1831 was broken up by a charge with drawn swords by Lt Col Thomas Brereton leading the Dragoons. He was later court-martialed for refusing to pen fire on the crowd.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Riots#Queen_Square_riots.2C_1831
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  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Dan_K wrote:
    GB Cycles in Croydon got done too.

    I blame Wiggle.

    And my girlfriend tells me the little bike shop on Chalk Farm Road also was turned over.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
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  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    bails87 wrote:
    The British Army is a professional fighting force, one we can be proud of because it's professional and voluntary. It's not a dumping ground for criminals.

    Sure, but I suspect the British Army is also highly skilled in instilling discipline and respect in those who have shown neither in the past (obviously they would have to be given the money and resources to train people properly).

    I can't help thinking that national service might not be such a bad idea, for a number of reasons.
  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    daviesee wrote:
    But greater London is a huge area. How do you decide where to deploy them with multiple riots happening on top of the usual stuff that normally keeps them busy as it is?

    But there could have been 10 officers in Clapham as opposed to 5!! Still wouldn't have been enough.

    My big problem with the police is they knew it was going to happen. They told local shops to lock up and go home. They then went off somewhere else. The looters cumulated in groups of 4 or 5. Then another 4-5. Nothing was happening until there was mass. A couple of officers with dogs early on telling the little shites to leave the area and a line of officers across the start of the high street, may have made a difference.
  • garnett
    garnett Posts: 196
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    Apparently the Notting Hill Carnival is being massively scaled down. Anticipated attendance plummetted overnight as the majority are staying in to watch at home in 3D.

    Thats a f&*king odious statement. I bet you're loving all this aren't you?
    Apologies. You're right. About the comment. I'm not loving all this, however. I suspect it may be easier to be liberal sat in Sheen than it is in Peckham for 2 hours while nobody answers 999 calls and the street below your flat is full of teenagers carrying TVs, and starting fires.

    I'd put a lot of money on the set causing trouble at the Carnival being the same set who kicked off last night.

    In retrospect though, it was a bit rash to infer from that that it's anything more than that - a set. Not the whole Carnival.
  • rubertoe
    rubertoe Posts: 3,994
    Loads of kids on Bikes - some looked like decent road bikes as well.

    basically its crimanality and there needs to be some swift action. i personally would get some of the Irish Bobbies in - they know how to quell a rampaging mob.
    "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

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  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    edited August 2011
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    Apparently the Notting Hill Carnival is being massively scaled down. Anticipated attendance plummetted overnight as the majority are staying in to watch at home in 3D.

    Thats a f&*king odious statement. I bet you're loving all this aren't you?

    I must confess, I thought it was quite funny.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    edited August 2011
    JZed wrote:
    My big problem with the police is they knew it was going to happen. They told local shops to lock up and go home. They then went off somewhere else. The looters cumulated in groups of 4 or 5. Then another 4-5. Nothing was happening until there was mass. A couple of officers with dogs early on telling the little shites to leave the area and a line of officers across the start of the high street, may have made a difference.

    +1

    I have to say I find it slightly suspicious how absent and then 'tame' the police were last night in Clapham Junction. They seemed to have no real interest in doing anything!

    At the back of my mind I fear the lawlessness may well lead to vigilante groups organising to protect assets/people...which would be very dangerous and would (sorry, but its true) be not far off developing into race war.
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Garnett wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    Apparently the Notting Hill Carnival is being massively scaled down. Anticipated attendance plummetted overnight as the majority are staying in to watch at home in 3D.

    Thats a f&*king odious statement. I bet you're loving all this aren't you?
    Apologies. You're right. About the comment. I'm not loving all this, however. I suspect it may be easier to be liberal sat in Sheen than it is in Peckham for 2 hours while nobody answers 999 calls and the street below your flat is full of teenagers carrying TVs, and starting fires.

    I'd put a lot of money on the set causing trouble at the Carnival being the same set who kicked off last night.

    In retrospect though, it was a bit rash to infer from that that it's anything more than that - a set. Not the whole Carnival.

    Was quoting from Enoch Powell's the Rivers of Blood speech "a bit rash" too?
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  • garnett
    garnett Posts: 196
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    Apparently the Notting Hill Carnival is being massively scaled down. Anticipated attendance plummetted overnight as the majority are staying in to watch at home in 3D.

    Thats a f&*king odious statement. I bet you're loving all this aren't you?
    Apologies. You're right. About the comment. I'm not loving all this, however. I suspect it may be easier to be liberal sat in Sheen than it is in Peckham for 2 hours while nobody answers 999 calls and the street below your flat is full of teenagers carrying TVs, and starting fires.

    I'd put a lot of money on the set causing trouble at the Carnival being the same set who kicked off last night.

    In retrospect though, it was a bit rash to infer from that that it's anything more than that - a set. Not the whole Carnival.

    Was quoting from Enoch Powell's the Rivers of Blood speech "a bit rash" too?
    You'd have to ask the person who quoted it.
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    JZed wrote:
    daviesee wrote:
    But greater London is a huge area. How do you decide where to deploy them with multiple riots happening on top of the usual stuff that normally keeps them busy as it is?

    But there could have been 10 officers in Clapham as opposed to 5!! Still wouldn't have been enough.

    My big problem with the police is they knew it was going to happen. They told local shops to lock up and go home. They then went off somewhere else. The looters cumulated in groups of 4 or 5. Then another 4-5. Nothing was happening until there was mass. A couple of officers with dogs early on telling the little shites to leave the area and a line of officers across the start of the high street, may have made a difference.


    Police dogs. Hungry police dogs. Let them have some fun.
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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Sewinman wrote:
    JZed wrote:
    My big problem with the police is they knew it was going to happen. They told local shops to lock up and go home. They then went off somewhere else. The looters cumulated in groups of 4 or 5. Then another 4-5. Nothing was happening until there was mass. A couple of officers with dogs early on telling the little shites to leave the area and a line of officers across the start of the high street, may have made a difference.

    +1

    I have to say I find it slightly suspicious how absent and then 'tame' the police were last night in Clapham Junction. They seemed to have no real interest in doing anything!

    At the back of my mind I fear the lawlessness may well lead to vigilante groups organising to protect assets/people...which would be very dangerous and would (sorry, but its true) be not far off developing into race war.

    Vigilante groups are already around: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011 ... CMP=twt_gu
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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Garnett wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    Garnett wrote:
    Apparently the Notting Hill Carnival is being massively scaled down. Anticipated attendance plummetted overnight as the majority are staying in to watch at home in 3D.

    Thats a f&*king odious statement. I bet you're loving all this aren't you?
    Apologies. You're right. About the comment. I'm not loving all this, however. I suspect it may be easier to be liberal sat in Sheen than it is in Peckham for 2 hours while nobody answers 999 calls and the street below your flat is full of teenagers carrying TVs, and starting fires.

    I'd put a lot of money on the set causing trouble at the Carnival being the same set who kicked off last night.

    In retrospect though, it was a bit rash to infer from that that it's anything more than that - a set. Not the whole Carnival.

    Was quoting from Enoch Powell's the Rivers of Blood speech "a bit rash" too?
    You'd have to ask the person who quoted it.

    Ah, it was dreamlx10 and not you that posted that quote. Sorry about that.
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Has anyone watched La Haine?
    _
  • mrc1
    mrc1 Posts: 852
    notsoblue wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    JZed wrote:
    My big problem with the police is they knew it was going to happen. They told local shops to lock up and go home. They then went off somewhere else. The looters cumulated in groups of 4 or 5. Then another 4-5. Nothing was happening until there was mass. A couple of officers with dogs early on telling the little shites to leave the area and a line of officers across the start of the high street, may have made a difference.

    +1

    I have to say I find it slightly suspicious how absent and then 'tame' the police were last night in Clapham Junction. They seemed to have no real interest in doing anything!

    At the back of my mind I fear the lawlessness may well lead to vigilante groups organising to protect assets/people...which would be very dangerous and would (sorry, but its true) be not far off developing into race war.

    Vigilante groups are already around: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011 ... CMP=twt_gu

    Not sure what the answer to this is but where do you draw the line between protecting your property and becoming a vigilante? Presumably if the shop owners stay put and guard their property (no police to protect it so they have to do it themselves) then its fine, but if they go out seeking trouble then they are vigilantes?
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  • MrChuck
    MrChuck Posts: 1,663
    Sewinman wrote:
    I have to say I find it slightly suspicious how absent and then 'tame' the police were last night in Clapham Junction. They seemed to have no real interest in doing anything!

    Go on then, what do you suspect them of?
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    MrChuck wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I have to say I find it slightly suspicious how absent and then 'tame' the police were last night in Clapham Junction. They seemed to have no real interest in doing anything!

    Go on then, what do you suspect them of?

    Holding back a bit to show what the result of funding cuts might have....probably over doing it to say this was a conscious choice by the police, but perhaps their lower morale means they are less inclined to get as involved.

    I said slightly suspicious though...there may have been good operational reasons to do nothing.

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