New Orange for 2012

benpinnick

Xt 785. Think that's pretty much perfection in brake form. IMHO

benpinnick

Hob Nob wrote:

In your opinion of course.

In mine, they are both as important as each other, along with a number of other factors.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any 'perfect' brake out there. There is always a compromise on something. Bit like bikes really.

Err, not much opinion in my statement. Brakes are needed to convert your momentum into heat, thus slowing the bike. A brake that lacks the ability to do this efficiently is pointless. One that 'feels' bad while doing it is just not nice to use. As for whether hopes lack power? Again I would see that as fact not opinion. They lack power.

Hob Nob

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Hob Nob, frankly, trying to have a sensible discussion with you makes me feel physically sick, because it's like talking to a rather slow wall.
Sonic said the brakes are underpowered, and that 317 rims are rather flimsy. There is no opinion in that, it's just the way it is. YOU later mentioned feel. And you didn't even have a reference point. Better feel than what, exactly?
Frankly, I give up on you. Go and shove your hopes where the sun don't shine.
I have no time for insane fanboys.[/u]

And quite frankly, trying to have a discussion with you is equally as pointless. You are an uneducated buffoon.

Indeed he did say they are underpowered. I've never disputed that if you actually took the time to read my points. However I did state the be all and end all of brakes is not just about power. It is about a number of different factors, most of which can't be defined on a dyno.

I find it mildly ironic that i'm labelled a fanboi. Very assumptive of course, i'll let you continue to look a fool on that basis, although I'll let you into a little secret - out of 7 bikes in our household, not one of them has Hope brakes.

Over 21500 posts doesn't mean your opinion is the be all and end all, nor does it make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's. Nor does it give you the right to be rude to people. Telling someone to effectively shove their opinion up their a*se because they don't agree with you, just about sums you up. Do you treat people like that in real life too? You must be a real nice guy to be around!

Brocklanders023

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Hob Nob, frankly, trying to have a sensible discussion with you makes me feel physically sick, because it's like talking to a rather slow wall.
Sonic said the brakes are underpowered, and that 317 rims are rather flimsy. There is no opinion in that, it's just the way it is. YOU later mentioned feel. And you didn't even have a reference point. Better feel than what, exactly?
Frankly, I give up on you. Go and shove your hopes where the sun don't shine.
I have no time for insane fanboys.[/u]

I've not been on here long but, don't take this the wrong way, the idea of you having a 'sensible discussion' makes me chuckle. Most of your posts that I've seen seem to be either trolling for reaction or rounding with certain others on a 'fanboy' of something or other. Good for the post count though :roll:

Interested in the Hope discussion as I had some Mono Mini's and have some Tech M4s and both have been ace. If the M4's had any more power I'd be over the bars! I've tried quite a few others, none of which felt as good or had more power. Saying that, I've not tried ever brake and have not tried many 2010/11 ones so I am probably out of date. :?

Hob Nob

benpinnick wrote:

Xt 785. Think that's pretty much perfection in brake form. IMHO

I'd agree - they are close!

The one thing that annoys me about Shimano brakes though - lack of spares!

If you have a caliper or lever issue, it's buy a whole new replacement part time. On the whole though, they are pretty damn reliable so you shouldn't have to worry about that, but rubber seals do perish over time.

Brocklanders023

BTW, I posted the above before I saw Hob nob's last post. :oops:

The Northern Monkey

I like how this thread seems to have turned into some brake bashing... as though the cost or Orange Bikes is justified because it comes with Hope brakes (which btw, are also overpriced anyway).

Brocklanders023

Well I think I put balance in to the 'cost of parts' grumble and have also provided proof that, shock horror, others have similar kit for the money so they need something to get over excited about.

The Northern Monkey

if thats what tickles your tickly bits then fair enough.... far too much form over function for me!

dubmodder

I guess everything is overpriced if you own a Boardman

Brocklanders023

The Northern Monkey wrote:

if thats what tickles your tickly bits then fair enough.... far too much form over function for me!

If we were all the same life would be boring. You're right about the tickly bits, each to their own and all that.

The Northern Monkey

dubmodder wrote:

I guess everything is overpriced if you own a Boardman

or... I look for value for money!

Which is why I've just bought a Canyon 6.0 Rockzone.

benpinnick

Brocklanders023 wrote:

Well I think I put balance in to the 'cost of parts' grumble and have also provided proof that, shock horror, others have similar kit for the money so they need something to get over excited about.

I don't think balance was needed. My statement of fact about the price of an Orange Pro specced to how I would like it was just that - a statement of fact. I don't doubt that some options offer better value than others. For example:

Orange Five comes with a cane creek and to switch to hope they want £52 to replace it with a £72 headset! Or even worse, upgrade hope rotors, and add a seat clamp and skewer from hope for MORE than I could upgrade the rotors (10 each) and BUY the other bits seperately.

Northwind

dubmodder wrote:

It has cup n cone hubs, crappy rims, and equivalent priced brakes from another manufacturer.

Are you for real? The Five comes with 317s, the absolute cheapest Mavic rims OPrange could spec, just so they could say on the speclist "Look! Mavic!". Same rims as you find on a £500 Carrera Fury. Nice hubs but that's a stupid way to build a wheelset (how many people on here would spec a 317 on a £2500 own build?) What they should do, is spec a cheaper hub and a better rim. Well actually, on a bike this expensive they should spec a good hub AND a good rim.

The Zesty comes with XT 778s. Yes they're cup and cone, which isn't actually a problem. But the wheelset is lighter and stronger, the rim is wider and tubeless ready. Really no contest.

Oh, and Lapierre don't supply the bike with an alloy freehub and a deore cassette, unlike Orange... And it's not as though they're not aware it's a terrible combination.

benpinnick

I have just noticed that the Patriot is 2999.99 and comes with Marzocchis. I rest my case.

supersonic

The DT Swiss Tricon 1550 is a £900 wheelset, and is not an XC set, more an All Mountain set. XR and XRC are the XC wheelsets.

As for brakes I like control too. However pulling the levers nearly as hard as I can and not being able to lock the wheels up does not give me the control I want. M4 have more power, but still can't match pretty basic Shimano for feel and control. Never mind the price - IMHO of course ;-)

The Canyon HA is quoted with a C2A length of 510mm ie a 125mm fork or a 150mm fork sagged somewhat. At full extension the angle is 67.5 degrees.

dubmodder

Like I said before, a bike is more than the sum of its parts. It can have whatever fancy bits you like, that won't make it ride well.

I really don't see why you keep going on about it.

We have already established that compared to other brands they are not overpriced (Trek, Specialized, Lapierre etc ) And be honest, who wouldn't buy a bike because they didn't like the brakes? Don't be so stupid.

I test rode loads of bikes before I bought the Five, if the Zesty, or any others had ridden better, I would have bought one, regardless of spec.

I don't know about you lot but I ride my bike, not just sit there and look at it.

Edit: Northwind, £400 for an XT wheelset that uses cup and cone hubs is stupidly overpriced when you can buy Pro 2 on Flows for £280.

YIMan

I got bored at page 6 of this thread.

All I will say is, everyone loves to talk about Orange....thanks all!

supersonic

I really don't see why you keep going on about it.

Maybe if people were correct in what they were saying then people wouldn't comment!

Pro 2 on Flows for £280.

Pity then that is not on the 5...

http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/shimano- ... 44443.html

£225. Though the 15mm is more.

that won't make it ride well.

Many of them DO ride well though!

I keep saying ride what you want. There is no need to try and justify everysingle part. But if people are saying things that are incorrect, I will point them out, and I think others will comment too if perceived flaws in the opposition are pointed out. Personally I have never, ever rode or tested an off the peg bike that does not have something that could be better.

Northwind

dubmodder wrote:

Edit: Northwind, £400 for an XT wheelset that uses cup and cone hubs is stupidly overpriced when you can buy Pro 2 on Flows for £280.

And, er, wait... What? If the Five had that as standard or even as an upgrade option, that'd be a really good point- it's what I'd out on a Five. But as it comes with 317s it's not, really.

I'd have XT778s over Pro 2s on 317s any day of the week.

supersonic

I think 719 would be good as standard - tougher, more width for minimal weight penalty.

The Northern Monkey

need to change that cassette too.

dubmodder

Northwind wrote:

dubmodder wrote:

Edit: Northwind, £400 for an XT wheelset that uses cup and cone hubs is stupidly overpriced when you can buy Pro 2 on Flows for £280.

And, er, wait... What? If the Five had that as standard or even as an upgrade option, that'd be a really good point- it's what I'd out on a Five. But as it comes with 317s it's not, really.

I'd have XT778s over Pro 2s on 317s any day of the week.

Sorry I wasn't on about the Five, just them wheels being overpriced.

I think Flows on Pro 2 would be a good optional upgrade too.

Anonymous

Hob Nob wrote:

You are an uneducated buffoon.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Hob Nob wrote:

Indeed he did say they are underpowered. I've never disputed that...

Yes, you did. Take the time to read your own reply. You know, the one where you said it was a matter of opinion.

1340jas

I have been running my Hope Mono Minis for 3 years. Mostly at Cwmcarn and the other hills around where I live. They work really well. I have tried a few different pads but the sintered hope ones or at a push Superstar ones do a great job of stopping me.
I weigh in at 15 stone and can ride very quick when assisted by gravity. I have only ever cleaned the brakes and will change the fluid in the next week or two.

I have tried the same bike with avid Juicy 5 and the Hopes are much better.

My bike came with WTB rims on Hope hubs which I think are classed as cheap rims. I have kept the spokes at the correct tension and have had no issues.

I will not mention on what bike my brakes are mounted for fear of instant backlash/envy.

Anonymous

Isn't that like saying "I'm not allowed to reveal that Ive signed the official secrets act"?

supersonic

Going back to the custom build I do think there can be a bit of an illusion with value (or dellusion ;-)). Take lets say a 2.8k bike and it comes with own brand finishing kit. People expect a certain level of spec regardless of price. They want to, at this price, see Thomson and Hope. So if it was 3k and had Thomson and Hope kit, many people would see it as better value, yet that 200 quid hasn't really got you much better kit... Infact a shrewd eye may say it was worse value. But at least you have the choice this way. I'd personally spend the 200 elsewhere...

Van Nicholas have a same sort of problem, their coincedentally 2.8k Tuareg build that you can customise as standard has a Tora TK. Just looks out of place.

Any alternative choices or upgrades have to be well thougth out though. I think we will see more of this custom speccing in the future, especially at this price level as many people spending this much do have half an idea about parts. I'd like to see more alternatives for the same money.

benpinnick

supersonic wrote:

Going back to the custom build I do think there can be a bit of an illusion with value (or dellusion ;-)). Take lets say a 2.8k bike and it comes with own brand finishing kit. People expect a certain level of spec regardless of price. They want to, at this price, see Thomson and Hope. So if it was 3k and had Thomson and Hope kit, many people would see it as better value, yet that 200 quid hasn't really got you much better kit... Infact a shrewd eye may say it was worse value. But at least you have the choice this way. I'd personally spend the 200 elsewhere...

Van Nicholas have a same sort of problem, their coincedentally 2.8k Tuareg build that you can customise as standard has a Tora TK. Just looks out of place.

Any alternative choices or upgrades have to be well thougth out though. I think we will see more of this custom speccing in the future, especially at this price level as many people spending this much do have half an idea about parts. I'd like to see more alternatives for the same money.

I agree. I think that maybe the days for full builds are coming to an end. For whatever reason the price pf parts hasn't accelerated as fast as bikes, and so we're now in the odd situation where building a bike is much the same cost as buying it once the %age of the price that constitutes the frame drops low enough.

Prices in the last couple of years have accelerated fast on whole bikes. Over 10% a year in most cases. Bring on the fully custom builds!

dubmodder

I think performance pack 1 is a good deal on the Five.

£190 for Easton Haven carbon bars (£100), Thompson 4x stem (£60), Thompson Elite seat post (£64), and Fizik Gobi saddle (£85).

But the Reverb post upgrade is strange because you pay £220 for it which is RRP, and lose out on the standard post.

joshtp

My main problem with the 5 and all Oranges is much the same as my problem with the iPhone... Let me explain.


The iPhone is brilliant. A top phone. It looks great, works well, and is American. (it matters to some)

When the original iPhone came out it was undisputed king. Nothing could come close. incremental changes have meant that it is still a top phone.

HOWEVER. Due to Apples clever marketing, the "aura" that surrounds the name and the enthusiastically preached opinion of some almost evangelical owners it is widely regarded, by non-techy types at least as the best phone in the world. Full Stop.

Problem. It isn't. Not anymore. Other Android and WP7 handsets dont just give it a run for it's money but fully blow it out of the water.

Put a Galaxy s 2 or a HTC Sensation next to an iPhone and most members of the public will take the iPhone... even though it simply isnt as good. Now this is, I suppose down to personal preference as well as pure facts. If you are a huge iOS fan then it may still be the best phone. But generally speaking - not so.

It even manages to convince people that it's the only phone that can do stuff. The other day I was talking to someone who genuinely thought that the iPhone is the only phone with GPS and web browsing, and wifi, and apps such as endomondo and MagicSeaWeed...

People feel like the iPhone has an air of exclusivity - but it's actually one of the biggest selling phones ever.

Now all this would be fine if the iPhone was cheap. But it's not. It's still wildly expensive compared to the opposition. And yet it still sells in it's millions. Why?

The name.


Now the Orange 5 is similar.

When it came out it was brilliant. And incremental changes have kept it at the top end. However, it is not the powerhouse it once was - it may well be the best bike for some people - most likely fans of tough single pivot trail bikes. But generally speaking it's simply not the best 140mm trail bike out there. It's just not. However marketing and the NAME have kept it selling in it's hundreds.

People feel like their buying an exclusive, British made bike... but it's actually made mostly in Taiwan, and is extremely common in some area's.

People still think of it as a "dream bike" the last word in quality - when in reality often shoddy welding and average after sales service mean it's just not.

What gets me is that owners and fanboi's think it's the ONLY tough 140mm trail bike... the only bike that can do what it does... again, it's just not!

This would be OK if it were cheap... but it's not - you pay a premium!


IMHO Orange and Apple (this is a very fruity comment) BOTH need to stop resting on their laurels and get their but into gear because one day people WILL begin to realise that their products are not the only, and certainly not the best option..