New Orange for 2012
Comments
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But generally speaking it's simply not the best 140mm trail bike out there. It's just not.
What an absolute load of turd, "it's just not" is not a reason.but it's actually made mostly in Taiwan, and is extremely common in some area's.
Could you speak more crap if you tried? The frame is made in England.0 -
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great comedy value this has turned in to "we're a forum of pointless upgraders, depreciation maximisers, and diminishing returns addicts"0 -
dubmodder"]Bearing in mind that is a 2012 Five you spec'd up, and this is a 2011 Trek Remedy 9, no doubt next year they will cost more.
Trek Remedy 9 2011
£3200
Sorry Dubmodder, but what you've listed is the spec for the Trek Remedy 8 2011, not the 9, and prices for next years, i think, are frozen, or in some cases, less than this years.Trek Remedy 9.9 (custom) 2011
Santa Cruz Tallboy LTc (custom)
Trek Stache 8 20130 -
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dubmodder wrote:But generally speaking it's simply not the best 140mm trail bike out there. It's just not.
What an absolute load of turd, "it's just not" is not a reason.but it's actually made mostly in Taiwan, and is extremely common in some area's.
Could you speak more crap if you tried? The frame is made in England.
OK.. so maybe I should have given a few reasons... rather than say "its just not" However I'm tired and therefore CBA... so just trust me. It's not the best...
Well yes, aside from all the bit's made in Taiwan...I like bikes and stuff0 -
Well the fact is if you want to buy a complete bike in the 140mm travel category, using single pivot format and the frame is made in halifax, then it is truly the best.0
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Well, there is no "best 140mm trail bike", since people are different.
I didn't say it was, in fact no one on this entire thread has, I said "it's just not" is not a reason.Well yes, aside from all the bit's made in Taiwan...
When people say its made in England they are on about the frame, obviously.0 -
You need to get laid or something0
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Thanks for the offer, but I'm good, thanks.0
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Update. Orange test ride tomorrow. Going to Afan for a fair test up and down. We'll see how it does.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
For the love of all thats good, take sunglasses.Santa Cruz 5010C
Deviate Guide
Specialized Sequoia Elite
Pivot Mach 429SL
Trek Madone 5.2 Di2
Salsa Mukluk Carbon
Specialized Turbo Levo Expert 29er0 -
Nice one Ben, up will be fine, down will be amazingly fun.0
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benpinnick wrote:Update. Orange test ride tomorrow. Going to Afan for a fair test up and down. We'll see how it does.
where in afan? the decents at the trail center are very tame at best. Not really much of a test of a hardcore bike
And will this thread please die, I dislike them and thats enough that everyone should hate them completely because i say so :P0 -
Can I point you all to a posting I put up on the 'bike wars' thread.
Not my work but I wish it was!0 -
There is a budget version on the market:
The Orangcuda
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Maybe he did go blind after all0
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supersonic wrote:There is a budget version on the market:
The Orangcuda
Yours for just £2200....Santa Cruz 5010C
Deviate Guide
Specialized Sequoia Elite
Pivot Mach 429SL
Trek Madone 5.2 Di2
Salsa Mukluk Carbon
Specialized Turbo Levo Expert 29er0 -
supersonic wrote:There is a budget version on the market:
The Orangcuda
Bwahahaha
Mind you, the Santa Cr-Apollo Superlight:
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Well, I've finally had a chance to ride a 5, and heres the Verdict:
Competant but un-inspiring
I ended up with a somewhat less offensive white one in the end, which I must admit, added to the visual appeal immensely. I've never been a fan of the way they look, in an 'only its mother could love it' kind of way, but having lived witha 5 for half a day I have grown accustomed, if not attracted to its funky looks and ungainly posture.
The bike was spec'ed with a main SLX drive train, F32-140 floats, RP23, Hope Pro II/X317 wheels and Hope X2 brakes.
Firstly, let me get my biggest gripe of the day out of the way so it doesn't muddy my review. Hope X2s are fucking awful. Whoever thinks these PoS are any good needs their head examined. I have never used more woeful disc brakes in my life. And that life includes a lot of Hope Brakes. Rant over.
Onto other kit then...
The mainly SLX drivetrain was of course competent, and did the job sterlingly. I found the wheels to be fine, despite concerns about the rims, and the bars were a good shape and width, despite being own brand. The stem on the other hand was flexy and looked cheap (the bars looked cheap too, but performed fine), and I don't think it reflected the cost of the bike at all. Its one thing to have own brand, its another to have crappy own brand.
The other equipment gripe was from the seatpost, which was either too large, or the seat tube too small. Either way getting it in and out was a bitch, despite the presence of fairly fresh grease and no notable evidence of excess dirt. I suspect that as it was about a cheap a seatpost as you could find it might be an QC issue with the post rather than frame.
So how did it ride?
I rode it around whites, at Afan, which I think is a fair test. Some would complain this is a 'Hardcore' bike and that this isn't good enough of a test; those people are idiots. I challenge anyone to tell me that the Whites descents at full DH pace isn't worthy of testing a trail bike. Secondly, this bike clearly isn't meant to be hardcore - Its neither specced or angled as a hardcore bike, and so labelling it as one is plain daft.
As you may know, the first, 40 mins or so of Whites is uphill. This gave me ample chance to test the bikes uphill ability... Its really rather good. Having established that only PP setting 3 on the shock really worked to eliminate the pedal bob, the bike dispatched the uphill with a fair degree of efficiency. It certainly made light work of it and showed up my Blur LT in doing so. The combination of very nice angles, a suitable rear wheelbase and the traction afforded by the chain pulling effect of a single pivot meant that uphilling on the Orange was a hard-tail esque breeze. A surprise and a very welcome one at that.
Its worth mentioning again the geometry on this bike is very suited to XC work too, despite its leggy travel. It seemed to be much more at home on the twisty uphill than any thing I had ridden for a while, even my old Stumpy FSR, and really came into its own when the going went really vertical. The design meaning that the front was planted to the ground when I needed it most.
As the top of the hill was reached, and the terrain leveled out, we got the chance to add some speed to the equation and see how things went. Now, with increased velocity the good and bad became more evident -
As we got quicker, the geometry began to shine, as did the stiffness of the frame. It whips round the corners well and with great ease. Contrary to what I think a lot of people believe the 5 is pretty stiff, the Head tube very much so, and the BB showed little deflection under the max forces. The rear end held it together well too.
One the downside, what makes a bike good to climb also makes it less fun on this type of trail. The front end was planted to the ground and wanted to stay that way. The ride was very direct and 'accurate' but lacked any real spark. Normally I will manual over and around anything, using the pump to carry speed and the manual to avoid bashing the front wheel into every obstacle. The orange 5 is strangely hard to get the front off the ground. Im sure if you own one and have ridden it for a while you wont notice it, but as someone who has ridden lots of other bikes before this one, it was very noticeable. More surprising than this issue was the lack of acceleration the 5 has. Having been so good at uphill I was expecting a couple of swift pedal strokes to reap rewards, but the Orange seemed to suck away excessive input, maintaining a more constant speed, which I was frustrated by.
Then of course the trail turns downhill for the big finale, and so did my Orange 5 experience. Until now, I was pleasantly surprised by all that I had found and my only real negative was the inability to manual the bike, and the lack of acceleration - neither of which would be good enough reasons to not like a bike overall.
Its only when you point the orange back down again do you find out that the single pivot is so heavily reliant on the shock to make it work well, and the shock just can't do it at warp speed.
I found the 5 quickly out of its depth on the DH section. The main issues were the abject lack of brakes, the mismatched front and rear suspension, and the rear shock performance. It quickly turned from butter smooth to rougher than expected when I cranked the speed, and I think I know what I didn't like. In order to restore order I would change a few things about the five when pointing it downhill.
1. The forks. 140mm forks just don't cut it. They are too short and drop the front too low. I often found myself feeling like I would pitch over the front on relatively small drops. I'd add 10mm to the travel on the forks. Not only would this make a more balance pairing for the rear, as I think a slightly longer front travel suits better overall but it would just lend itself to a better weight balance and dh handling.
2. The stem. Its crap. Get rid of it. If the front end is stiff as hell, except the stem, whats the point?
3. THOSE FUCKING BRAKES!!!
4. The rear shock is not able to control this pretty agricultural set up. The Fox RP23 is a minor miracle of engineering and shock technology, of that there can be no doubt. It is a great piece of kit that will turn any suspension into a bob free experience with the flick of a switch, and provide reliable air cushioning all day long. Unfortunately no matter how good it gets, its outright DH ability is still limited with its air spring and compact size... and on the 5 this really shows.
Im no suspension expert, but I suspect that all those extra linkages and what not found on other frames are designed primarily to alter the input into the shock an the path of the wheel. To change the way that the obstacle, bike and the shock interact in order to maximise the shocks performance. On the orange, where the obstacle impact translates directly to the shock this seems to overwhelm it quite quickly. As the overall performance of the bike is good, and it handles well its not the end of the world, but it felt a lot like riding a 5 year old shock, or one from a lesser brand. It was capable of doing the job, but didn't feel like an RP23. Gone was the unflappable nature I am used to and replaced with a somewhat unpredictable character of compression spikes and excess rebound damping kicking in when you aren't expecting it.
When you compare the DH ride to that of its main competitors from a marketing poerspective; the Trek Remedy, it is pretty much outclassed in every respect. While I don't own one I think its probably a good comparison point for the Orange 5, as despite its longer travel its pitching to roughly the same market, and since I have ridden one before, I know what its like. Its level of control and poise really shows up the 5, and justifies the new shock technology that has been developed to control the situation by Fox and Trek.
Likewise if you swing a leg over an Intense, Santa Cruz or Tomac you will get the distinct impression that they have spent a lot of time figuring out how not to kill the shock, extending the useful life of an RP23 to a lot harder terrain than it was originally designed for.
I think adding a DHX or coil shock would help alot, and I mean alot - I would really LOVE to test an Orange Five with a CC double barrel. That would be an interesting pairing.
So In Summary
The five is actually a pretty good bike overall. I like its ride and trail manners on the uphill and XC single track. It was easily out of its depth on the downhill though, and this for me is a real problem that could only be solved with a lot of time and probably money invested in finding the right shock and tune, which I wouldn't bother doing. It wasn't so bad that it impacted its ability to get down a hill, and as th33lter commented today it didnt really slow me down, it just didn't fill me with confidence. A too low front end combined with a shock that was at its limit of capability, all paired with those brakes meant I'd rather be going up than down on an Orange Five.
If you own an Orange Five I wouldn't rush out an sell it based on this (not that you would!); its ok at downhill just not great, which surprised me as it contradicts most of what you hear. Its a competent bike that handles itself well. If you don't own a Five I would suggest that you test a few bikes before parting with your cash. You might be surprised to find out that the things you thought the Orange was best at might just be the chinks in its armour.
Test Pilot Out.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
Interesting, and well written! Quite the opposite of what I found though at the front! I found the front end high and popped up too easily. Though after riding a Zaskar for years then most things do...
TOtally agree about the pedaling and brakes though ;-)0 -
Fair enough, but... (ahem)
I can't think of any full suss bike on sale that does not exibit the same chain-pull characteristic.benpinnick wrote:the traction afforded by the chain pulling effect of a single pivot
And with regards to the suspension being "overwhelmed" on the descents, my old singlepivot wolfridge had a similar affliction, leading it to be ridden like a hardtail with some give.
I believe what causes is it the rear wheel's inability to keep moving out of the way of the obstacle. The arc of the wheel will eventually work against the direction the impact is pushing it.0 -
benpinnick wrote:I think adding a DHX or coil shock would help alot, and I mean alot - I would really LOVE to test an Orange Five with a CC double barrel. That would be an interesting pairing.
I rode one with a DHX RC4 I believe back in May and it was bloody nice, had Lyriks up front, didn't feel too weighty albeit it didn't climb as well as others I've ridden, but on the descents it was super.
Still wouldn't buy one.0 -
supersonic wrote:Interesting, and well written! Quite the opposite of what I found though at the front! I found the front end high and popped up too easily. Though after riding a Zaskar for years then most things do...
TOtally agree about the pedaling and brakes though ;-)
Supersonic, all things are relative of course compared to a Zaskar I am sure the Orange is a pop-happy hooligan. The thing I found interesting was I was expecting a trail bike witha DH slant, and found an XC bike with a load of travel.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
Nice review Ben, I agree, Whites is the perfect test, its a trail bike not a DH bike.
Like you said the stem is shite, I just put a 55mm Easton Haven on mine. Also the Tech X2's are useless, I have used more powerful v brakes.
I agree with you about the climbing, it's surprisingly competent, especially for the weight.
One thing I wouldn't agree on, and I have read many threads/posts that agree, is the descending. The bike really comes into its own on the downhills, I now whoop my brother on his Heckler, whereas on the EX I previously owned he totally lost me on the downs. It rails corners and berms amazingly well, and for me is extremely confidence inspiring.
I tested a Remedy before the Orange (and owned the EX for over a year) I personally think the Orange is better in every respect. The Remedy and EX's suspension made everything feel square edged, the EX was marginally faster uphill due to weighing 3 1/2 pounds less, but downhill the Five beats them both, easily.
Obviously this is all my personal opinion, but I did test a lot of bikes before I purchased mine.
What sag and rebound where you running at the back?0
