Cancellara Caught??

luckao

ProBiker wrote:

Boonen Caught !!!!

LINK

This is getting f&8king ridiculous........

“When Fabian rode along side, he said Boonen’s eyes glowed red and when he said hello, the robot replied ‘not programmed to respond.”

That's brilliant

lightminer

Gary - yeah, I would agree. Just trying to think of anything that would back what was being said (more torque or 'something'? being applied that would make the bike go faster, but not make the pedals spin faster), but it makes no sense as far as I can tell.

And Luckao - yeah - I loved the red eyes part!!!!! My other favourite part is the mechanic doing something with his hands, something mysterious, must be!

nakita222

Details continue to emerge in what is fast becoming an embarrassing story of mechanical doping. First it was the crazy suspicion that Fabian Cancellara had a hidden motor in his bike. The Swiss time trial star supposedly used the additional power source to win Paris Roubaix and the Tour of Flanders.

Then Saxo Bank fired back with the accusation that Quick Step star Tom Boonen was in fact, a robot, a cycling cyborg.

Now, Italian investigative journalist Alberto Diggelini has disturbing photographic evidence of what he claims in a Quick Step mechanic riding a tandem with a crude Boonen prototype.

“I took this shot last year in Belgium. At the time I thought is was a joke until the Quick Step people became upset,” said Diggelini. “Then when I read about mechanical doping, I knew what I’d stumbled on something big,” said Diggelini.

The photo shows what appears to be a fully functional robot cyclist capable of pedaling a bike at speed. “You throw a skin over that and you have a monster,” said the journalist. “I have been to Disneyworld — they do it all the time and it looks as real as your hand. And I can tell you, the robot had Boonen’s pedaling style.”

Quick Step manager Patrick Lefevere continues to deny any and all allegations. “It is madness, drunk journalists searching for a story. I cannot even respond to it. Cancellara with a hidden motor, that is possible. But Boonen a cyborg — preposterous,” said Lefevere.

ProBiker

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian ... ised-bikes

Italian Judge launches criminal investigation.

* Pro Riders Implicated and could be named.
* No formal UCI checks were made on giro bikes for motors.

Things are getting a bit serious.....

dave_1

ProBiker wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-judge-opens-investigation-into-motorised-bikes

Italian Judge launches criminal investigation.

* Pro Riders Implicated and could be named.
* No formal UCI checks were made on giro bikes for motors.

Things are getting a bit serious.....

Am amazed this story has got such traction...I can't make up my mind if cancellera's kick was made to look so fast because the line to his right were soft pedalling, so you get optical illusion you couldn't see with your own eyes. Cameras lie

Garry H

lightminer wrote:

Gary - yeah, I would agree. Just trying to think of anything that would back what was being said (more torque or 'something'? being applied that would make the bike go faster, but not make the pedals spin faster), but it makes no sense as far as I can tell.

And Luckao - yeah - I loved the red eyes part!!!!! My other favourite part is the mechanic doing something with his hands, something mysterious, must be!

I agree, none of it makes sense. Pseudo science. Load of cr*ap that shoyld have been put to bed ages ago. Something very Jeremy Beadle-esque about it.

iantr

Is it possible that my bike has one that's been fitted the wrong way around? ;>

seemunkee

Love the headline over at Velonews
Cancellara motors to Suisse win

Steve2020

RichN95 wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Ah but according to some on here the technology doesn't exist and it's a joke even to consider it :shock:

Really it doesn' t exist.

I work for the Intellectual Property Office. I'm a Senior Patent Examiner with 15 years experience. When this came up five or six weeks ago I did some Patent searches (I have access to the best patents search engine in the world). There was nothing that could be passed off as a real bike. And more importantly nothing close - because innovation, like evolution, progresses in small steps not giant leaps. I found the Gruber Assist patent, but that was the best it got. No batteries in the downtube. No switches in the hoods. Really nothing even close.

Now the conspiracy theorist will either say that there's no point patenting something with allegedly little commercial appeal - well that applies to at least 80% of patents. Companies patent everything they come up with - I've seen plenty of nonsense in my time.

The CTs will also say why would they patent a cheating method. Reason: Because they're not paid enough - their inventions could be worth millions (or nothing|) - certainly far more than Saxo can offer. No engineer is going to give up their IT rights unleess they're paid obscene amounts.

Those who say it is easy to make the motor quieter or make the battery a different shape have no practical engineering experience. What seems easy to the uninitiated is actually very hard.

Fabian Cancellara has been a really powerful rider for at least 5 years now. If you want to say he's medically doping, then fair enough - I don't know. But I can categorically state that he was not using a motor with 100% certainty. Anyone who thinks it wasn't down to Fabian completely is a first class bonehead.

Now doubters we can move on to how we actually didn't land on the moon and how evolution really is no more than just a 'theory'

Sorry for the rant, but anyone who has ever believed this is an absolute idiot.

Well I'm sceptical too but believing it doesn't make you an idiot or a bonehead and I don't see how anyone (except him or someone who inspected the bike) could say he wasn't 'with 100% certainty'. It's not exactly a sport where the Corinthian spirit is strong.

As you say the Gruber Assist is already patented.

As you will know, under patent law, any further patents related to it would require an 'inventive step' in order to be registered (or at least to withstand challenge if they were registered).

Hard to see where the 'inventive step' is in putting cylindrical batteries into a cylindrical tube, instead of a saddlebag. Presumably Gruber put them in a saddle bag not because of the technical difficulty of putting them in the downtube, but because of ease of charging etc for customers (who don't want to hide their use).

A switch is a switch - could be anywhere under the bar tape and not worth patenting. You just have to touch two wires together. Even old Dura Ace STI levers have the flightdeck electrical connections and button - not hard to imagine a switch. And not patentable.

So I don't see how those two modifications could be a) patentable or b) (if they were patented) worth millions. The motor is the really clever bit and we know it exists.

A silent electric motor would be worth patenting. But why would you need to make it quieter to use it in a pro race? It's noisy at those races - crowds, helicopters, rattling bikes, motorcycles, cars. I was on the Muur this year and there is no way I or anyone else would have heard the noise of an electric motor. Paris Roubaix is even louder with the noise of the bikes on the cobbles.

RichN95.

Steve2020 wrote:

As you will know, under patent law, any further patents related to it would require an 'inventive step' in order to be registered (or at least to withstand challenge if they were registered).

Hard to see where the 'inventive step' is in putting cylindrical batteries into a cylindrical tube, instead of a saddlebag. Presumably Gruber put them in a saddle bag not because of the technical difficulty of putting them in the downtube, but because of ease of charging etc for customers (who don't want to hide their use).

A switch is a switch - could be anywhere under the bar tape and not worth patenting. You just have to touch two wires together. Even old Dura Ace STI levers have the flightdeck electrical connections and button - not hard to imagine a switch. And not patentable.

So I don't see how those two modifications could be a) patentable or b) (if they were patented) worth millions. The motor is the really clever bit and we know it exists.

You obviously didn't see the bit where I said I was a Senior Patent Examiner.

1. There is quite a sizeable inventive step. I'm one of the people who decides whether there's an inventive step, so if I say there's one, there is - end of story. Perhaps you should have another read of Pozzoli.

2. A switch is not just a switch. There's a whole classification heading which is just switches (so probably 50-100 thousand patents). There's two people at the IPO who just deal with electrical connectors. The main guy is called Paul. I used to share an office with him. They're still backlogged though so a third person is currently helping them out - which, by coincidence, is me.

paulcuthbert

Dave_1 wrote:

Am amazed this story has got such traction...I can't make up my mind if cancellera's kick was made to look so fast because the line to his right were soft pedalling, so you get optical illusion you couldn't see with your own eyes. Cameras lie

I agree. Also, if you look at his cadence before the attack, right at the start of the clip, and compare it to when his speed increases, it's down to a big increase in his cadence - more power = more speed, basically. His cadence is noticeably slower before his "big" increase in speed.

The other clips you can see the upshift gear lever being pushed inward - and with an increase in cadence (notably on the Kappelmuur) of course he's going to accelerate! If you've ever ridden a bike you'd know that...

As Armstrong posted on Twitter yesterday:
"Congrats to Fabian! Homeboy's got 2 motors on his bike. The left and right leg motors. End of story"

Cancellara's just an animal. These suspicions are a load of crap.

takethehighroad

This is more tedious than the Floyd thing

cougie

Arthur C Clarke would probably do a program on this. I used to love his series on ITV.

This week UFOs. Next week Cancellaras bike and a crystal skull...

Kléber

Some more here in French:
http://www.eurosport.fr/les-commentateu ... full.shtml

Watch 2nd half of the film. Basically the mechanic takes the bike and then gives it back a little bit later in what was a pre-meditated move. Not saying it's dodgy but it's clearly an odd move to swap bikes and then get the same bike back a little bit later.

calvjones

Kléber wrote:

Some more here in French:
http://www.eurosport.fr/les-commentateu ... full.shtml

Watch 2nd half of the film. Basically the mechanic takes the bike and then gives it back a little bit later in what was a pre-meditated move. Not saying it's dodgy but it's clearly an odd move to swap bikes and then get the same bike back a little bit later.

What, so the mechanic removed or inserted the motor + switches + battery from the same bike whilst in the car? I can't follow. Much like Boonen

Kléber

It's possible that a battery change occured but that is looking for facts to fit the pattern. But it is odd that Cancellara changes bikes for 5km and recoups the original bike in a planned manner later. Put aside the wild rumours and ask why?

Tom Butcher

Could the water bottle be a possible site for a hidden battery ?

Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHU7qBZSsfk

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

It's possible that a battery change occured but that is looking for facts to fit the pattern. But it is odd that Cancellara changes bikes for 5km and recoups the original bike in a planned manner later. Put aside the wild rumours and ask why?

Some riders just like their bike. I've seen people bend something in a crash, move to their spare bike and get called back for their original bike after the spanner jockeys have fixed it.

Perhaps the spare bike didn't have a mirror installed on the stem for Chinny to admire himself in?

Kléber

All true. But Saxo said they forgot the mechanic by the roadside and drove off without him. Only for Cancellara to ride on a bike with no waterbottles and then, lo, for the mechanic to reappear by the road. If the bike needed some repairs, would this have been done by a guy they forgot?

So it looks like Cancellara might have known he'd be changing bikes and then collecting his original ride again.

SpaceJunk

Kléber wrote:

It's possible that a battery change occured but that is looking for facts to fit the pattern. But it is odd that Cancellara changes bikes for 5km and recoups the original bike in a planned manner later. Put aside the wild rumours and ask why?

I thought I read in Cycle Sport that Fabian was riding a 'Project X / Black [Whatever it was called] Specialized.

He started on the prototype bike, had a mechanical (cracked zipp wheel rim), and went onto a standard specialised.

My question: are we talking about this bike change here, or another bike change??

Perhaps, he wanted to finish on the prototype bike????

Kléber

No, another bike change, he rides his bike, swaps it in a planned manner for a spare and then a few km later, he recovers the original bike.

Was the spare not good? What was fixed on the original? The swap looks planned, taking place at a convenient point on the course, why did this happen? Why did Saxo at first say they forgot the mechanic yet the swap looks deliberate, Cancellara swaps bikes but rides off without bidons, he reclaims the old bike moments later and knows exactly where to pick up the bike.

D@VE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA&feature=related

As you can hear the use of Mozart to hide the noise of the motor.

Sorry love this vid

ProBiker

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... otor-26594

Some of the prototypes could be inside Pro riders bikes' ??

mididoctors

Kléber wrote:

No, another bike change, he rides his bike, swaps it in a planned manner for a spare and then a few km later, he recovers the original bike.

Was the spare not good? What was fixed on the original? The swap looks planned, taking place at a convenient point on the course, why did this happen? Why did Saxo at first say they forgot the mechanic yet the swap looks deliberate, Cancellara swaps bikes but rides off without bidons, he reclaims the old bike moments later and knows exactly where to pick up the bike.

perhaps they practiced bike changes at several places along the route... entering or exiting the pave sections... they must have done motor or not?

msw

Kléber wrote:

No, another bike change, he rides his bike, swaps it in a planned manner for a spare and then a few km later, he recovers the original bike.

Was the spare not good? What was fixed on the original? The swap looks planned, taking place at a convenient point on the course, why did this happen? Why did Saxo at first say they forgot the mechanic yet the swap looks deliberate, Cancellara swaps bikes but rides off without bidons, he reclaims the old bike moments later and knows exactly where to pick up the bike.

This sort of faux-innocent raising of questions often crops up in conspiracy theories - anything "unexplained" is recruited as support for a theory that's already been decided on. Nobody ever really has the stamina to go through and answer all these questions one by one, to ask whether they're even reasonable questions based in fact, or to work out whether the implied answers even make any sense in the context of the theory. Generally, the tinier and more insignificant the detail the better it is as a foundation for building castles of speculation. (He rode off without bidons? IT MUST BE AN ENGINE.)

The impression created is of lots of "unanswered questions" which "can't be just coincidence" (of course, they can) and which therefore "cast doubt on the official version of events". It's easy in the midst of the frantic water-muddying to lose sight of the fact that the big overall claim is ridiculous.

SpaceJunk

Can I ask a question:

<b> IF </b>Fabian was using a motor, and he was caught, what would the implications be to Saxo-Bank?

If Fabian was busted for using EPO, Bjarne could simply say "I don't watch him 24 hours a day, blah blah, blah...." [like he did with Basso]. But surely this form of motorised cheating would implicate the WHOLE team.

Fabian wouldn't be able to pull it off without Bjrane, the mechanics etc all knowing.

If Fabian was caught, surely that would be the end of Saxo-Bank as a team, immediate. What sponsor would back a team that deliberately and untiedly cheated.

Specialised would probably pull up stumps immediately. Their advertising and marketing campaigns would be in tatters. There product would be associated with motorised aids, as if their bikes aren't fast enough. You could imgaine Specialised suing Saxo-Bank for damages.

So that begs the question, Why would Fabian / Saxo-Bank cheat in this way?

Surely it would be safer for him to blood dope, and at least if he got caught, Bjarne could again say 'I see nothing, I hear nothing' etc.

What do you think?

Kléber

msw wrote:

This sort of faux-innocent raising of questions often crops up in conspiracy theories - anything "unexplained" is recruited as support for a theory that's already been decided on.

Quite. Either on this thread or a related one I said there is a danger that we look for signs to confirm the bias.

But note the Saxo mechanic isn't unexplained - the team initially said they lost him, only he re-appeared.

I wonder what Specialized's take on this is? To some extent there's a lot of focus on the bike but at the same time, it's what lurks inside.

dennisn

msw wrote:

Kléber wrote:

No, another bike change, he rides his bike, swaps it in a planned manner for a spare and then a few km later, he recovers the original bike.

Was the spare not good? What was fixed on the original? The swap looks planned, taking place at a convenient point on the course, why did this happen? Why did Saxo at first say they forgot the mechanic yet the swap looks deliberate, Cancellara swaps bikes but rides off without bidons, he reclaims the old bike moments later and knows exactly where to pick up the bike.

It's easy in the midst of the frantic water-muddying to lose sight of the fact that the big overall claim is ridiculous.

I'm not so sure. If "the big overall claim" is that it's possible he had a motor hidden in the bike, then I say "sure, it's possible". Today's technology has produced some amazing things and something like this is not beyond the realm of belief.

cougie

Oh jeez - its STILL going on. FFS - Cancellara has been doing this kind of riding for years now. Are we seriously suggesting that all of those were motor assisted too ? And how many people would have had to keep quiet ?

dennisn

cougie wrote:

Oh jeez - its STILL going on. FFS - Cancellara has been doing this kind of riding for years now. Are we seriously suggesting that all of those were motor assisted too ? And how many people would have had to keep quiet ?

Well, since we all know that the moon landings were faked, then we all know that's it's possible for a lot of people to keep quiet about things like that.