Cancellara Caught??
Comments
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It's powered by batteries unseen that are somehow fitted into the frame either permanantly or removable. the bike could have a concealed charger socket. So really Shimano/Campagnolo have wasted their time developing electric gearing and haven't even bought into the battery technology?
Without passing comment on the veracity or otherwise of the claim that 'mechanical doping' occurs, IMHO the inconvenience of having batteries hidden in the frame (requiring either a hole in the frame or taking the seatpost out to charge) in a consumer* product would probably be too great.
The motor does exist though - linky
Andy
*as opposed to pro, where there are team mechanics to strip the bike after the day's racing etc.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Let me recap some people's arguments here
A motorized bike has been made which has two technological breakthroughs. Firstly there is a silent motor. It's either silent because it has somehow been soundproofed and still fitted inside the frame or a motor which makes hardly any noise while still producing the necessary torque, the sort of motor not seen in any other field of technology. The motor turns the pedals so Cancellara has to turn it off every time he freewheels.
Secondly there's a battery which is far smaller and a different shape than any other electric bike battery, but still produces enough power. The battery is hidden in the downtube, so it must have been put there when the frame was made.
Of course the inventors haven't taken out any patents as these breakthroughs have absolutely no commercial value. Especially as quietness and aesthetics are of no interest to any cyclists.
The bike gets quickly taken away at the end of races (from places such as Roubaix velodrome) so that no-one can get a glimpse of the bike that has been on worldwide TV for the last two hours. Despite this secrecy the inventor allows it to be shown on Italian TV, but only in close up, where the bike has mysteriously acquired two suspicious looking bidons with electrical connectors and wires attached to them. Despite uncovering one of the worst cases of cheating in the history of sport the presenters clearly seem to be on the verge on laughing half the time.
And all this has been done so that the world's best time triallist can ride a bike at 38kph and win Paris-Roubaix in the roughly same way as he did in 2006 (on a different bike).
The counter argument is that Cancellara is a really good bike rider.
Got it in one !
To be fair a lot of people aren't saying Cancellara has done this - just that it appears to be possible to do it (though some doubt has been cast on that in terms of battery size) and that it's something the UCI would be silly not to keep tabs on the possibility that at some point it could be used in races.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
6x18650 rechargeable li-ion batteries weigh 300g and contains 2.5 x 3.7 x 6 = 55Wh of energy. Allowing 700g for the motor and BB axle connection gives a total weight of 1kg.
Effectively that's a zero weight penalty because all it does is bring the bike up to the UCI minimum weight limit.
50 - 60W of extra power for 40-50 minutes is enough to make a significant difference to a race - to make and establish a break, with a reserve to hold off the peloton at the end, or to gain 4-5 minutes on a summit finish.
You wouldn't want much more power than that - it would be too blatant.
So technically speaking, it's plausible.
Whether a team would be willing to risk an unannounced bike check is another matter.0 -
Has Boonen expressed any doubts about how Cancellara pulled away from him or does he think it's reasonable?0
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Back in April,
La rumeur Cancellara
Le secret de Fabian Cancellara ? Une dynamo dissimulée dans son pédalier, qui lui permettrait d'avancer plus vite. Le fantasme est d'autant plus drôle qu'il s'est transformé en rumeur au sein du peloton. Un coureur français a rapporté à www.cyclismag.com ce "bruit" étonnant. Ceux qui y croient vraiment brandissent comme argument les multiples changements de vélo que Cancellara opère en pleine course. C'est déjà plus original que des soupçons de dopage !
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Rumor Cancellara
The secret of Fabian Cancellara? A dynamo hidden in his pedal, allowing it to move faster. The fantasy is all the funnier it became in an uproar within the platoon. A French rider has reported to www.cyclismag.com this "noise" surprising. Those who really believe as an argument brandish the many changes of bike Cancellara operates at full speed. It is already more original than a suspicion of doping!
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=57370 -
Now I'm open minded here, but why if there were gear changes in both attacks, did the cadence not change at all as he changed gear?
If you change up a gear and keep your cadence the same... you accelerate. Which he did.
Or is the motor supposed to somehow accelerate the bike without turning the cranks faster? Clever stuff!"We're not holding up traffic. We are traffic."0 -
The technology to place a small motor in the seat tube does exist- thats shown in one if the previous links. Whether or not it would produce enough power given the available space for batteries is debatable.
I don't believe it should be dismissed out of hand just because the idea seems crazy or because someone dares to besmirch the good name of a favourite rider. Cheating has been in bike racing for as long as it has existed, from taking a tow to taking a train (early TdF- don't know the year) and sometimes its done by those we least expect. If the desire to win is so consuming, some will do anything. So dismiss this at your peril- it may well prove to be true in the end.
Wiggins could have done with one during the Giro.0 -
With the cadence Cancellara can product wouldn't he just burn the motor out?0
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Hmmm... Okay, so if the motor is 22-ish volts, then 55 WH or thereabouts is correct. If the motor is a different voltage, it may be a different watt number, I'd think offhand they would use a 24-volt motor and have the nominal voltage of the battery pack be more along the lines of 26 volts or so. (in other words, I'd add a battery or two) There are also battery-series-losses, so adding 2 batteries and going with a relatively standard 24-volt battery would make sense. But adding those 2 batteries won't change the 55 WH. (btw, some batteries I found online came out to 57.7 WH, but no big difference there. Lets stick with 55.)
Okay, so if the race is 45 - 50 min, then we just up that number a bit, so 55 - 60 would be the additional watts.
But it doesn't work that way! You can't just say that those would be the watts a hub-based wattmeter would see. There are inefficiencies in the motor. Gas motors are 30% efficient, electric ones much higher, but still innefficient. Maybe 70% Depends on the motor design, brushless, etc.
Okay, I'm trying to find out details on the Gruber linked to above... Yeah - it uses 30 V from the batter pack. It claims 4.5 AH, which is more than twice the energy in the 6 or 8 LiIon cells above. It comes out to 135 WH. Oh, and the whole system is apparently 900 g fwiw.
Okay, so 135 WH... What can we do with that number?
Oh interesting, here is what we want. The motor is a 200W motor, and the site itself says "the bicycle drive provides the rear wheel with up to 100 watts". That feels to me like the number that is comparable to bicyclists using watt meters. 100 watts, of course, would't be available for the full hour perhaps, but that would be its max.
Okay, so just throwing ideas around, the batter for this one would be in the seatbag, which is why it is so much more powerful than the 6 or 8 LiIon cells worked with above. I need a chart of max power for the pack for a distance...
Oh - here is something. It says: 6 amps is its maximum load, and at 6 amps for 45 min (perfect!) - oh darn. Just a range. Its unclear what the efficiency of the motor is, so for 45 min I can't say what the peak power at the wheel would be. 6 amps at 30 volts is 80 watts, very close to the 200W of the motor, so that is all consistent.
If the motor were 65% efficient and the mechanical assembly lost another 15% efficiency (could be anywhere from 5 - 15, remember we are doing 2 bevel gears, the chain, and the cassette, none of that on magnetic bearings - all of it is lubricated bearings), then we'd have
145 * 0.65 * 0.85 = 80.1
watts as a biker thinks of watts via a powermeter at the rear hub over the 45 min. And around 35 with the other battery pack. Which also won't fit in the seattube. So, if we are talking seattube only for batteries and motor, I think we're down to 10-something watts, and since you need a minimum number of batteries to get to 30 V regardless of AH, unless they are really small, I'm just not seeing it all come together.
If they could get batteries into the downtube, then there is plenty of room. The height of the reasonably-chosen LiIon batteries above is 65mm. So 8 * 65 = 52 cm. I think that is too high. And remember the bottom 10 cm or so is taken by the motor assembly.
Its all about the batteries now that Gruber and whomever else has dealt with the motor part. You need to store a lot of energy to make a difference over 45 min. A lot of energy! Well, a lot of energy for a seat-tube. Camelback or underseat bag can hold plenty... But, in the case we are trying to figure out here, it has to be hidden.
Can they get super-high-capacity batteries 'at any cost'? From what I've seen without contacting NASA, even at any cost I don't think you can do more than double what we have above. So 10 to 20 watts at rear wheel.
Can they get the batteries into the down tube? That is possible. Then the whole thing is possible, because then we can really get some power going.
Those are my armchair conclusions... I'm no EE, but I worked with batteries extensively at an engineering job 10 years ago.
ps - oh, this is funny, it says it optimally puts energy out at a pedalling rpm of 60. This is relatively obvious, but they would require one heck of a custom unit as no one at those levels is pedalling anywhere near 60. Oh, wait, while that is optimuim, it can go up to 90. So, I think it would actually have resistance at 100 - 120 RPM. But, again, they would just have to gear it for 110 or whatever number.
So there are major technical hurdles here as I see it, BUT, if they can get enough space for batteries, then perhaps it can be done. Some of these teams do have tons of money...0 -
Just saw that the hieght of the motor assembly is 22 cm, over twice what I suggested.
So I can say this for 100% sure: He didn't use a Gruber and seat-tube battery storage only. That is impossible from what I can see. That is a "Myth Busted"
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(but he could have used something that would have to be several years, maybe 5 years or even 10 ahead of the Gruber, and again, main issue is getting batteries into another tube.)0 -
Lightminer, thanks for the calculations.
There is on assumption in your calculations that I don't really get. Why do you think he needs 45 minutes of battery? IMHO, he only needs 5-10 minutes just to make the gap and stay away. Do you think it would be possible then?
On another note, look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HYNoEaWk_4 from 5:15 onwards.
After the finish line, the bike hardly seems to lose speed. Even as the team guy takes Cancellara, he has to start running to catch up with him, while I would expect the bike to stop. Of course my vision is biased. Someone here suggested the wheels and cranks of the bike were still turning as they took the bike away after PR 2010. Seen no evidence of that.
Still, this could be used as some form of evidence - on both sides. You could try and replicate that deceleration after the finish line and compare it to the video. Any expert opinions on that?0 -
pitrak wrote:On another note, look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HYNoEaWk_4 from 5:15 onwards.
After the finish line, the bike hardly seems to lose speed. Even as the team guy takes Cancellara, he has to start running to catch up with him, while I would expect the bike to stop.
As the pedals aren't turning and the chain isn't moving, what do you suppose is driving the wheels then? (Other than old fashioned momentum)Twitter: @RichN950 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
Apparently the idea is he/they are only using it for short periods of time. That can be done technically, which is what I was trying to explore. But with 22 cm for the main assembly, they would still need to put the batteries somewhere else other than the seat tube!! Even for 2 minutes. You need many batteries to get to 30 volts regardless of the AH or WH involved (AH and WH mean how long a certain power can be applied, voltage is sort of the intensity of the charge at any given instantaneous moment, and the motor is 30 volts). The engineering effort difference between using the seat tube and any other tube is enormous. Very enormous. (Unless someone rides a folding bike in a Tour.)
But, that would be crazy if it were the case. I wouldn't even know what to think. People really think this is real? They will have to look under everyone's seatpost after this perhaps.....
Horrible if real, but it just seems too bold to me.
(EDIT - pitrak - I wrote this before I saw your post! Yeah, so I was following a previous poster who also had the 45 min assumption - but as you say the claim is that it just powers the bike for a few minutes here and there. Post altered to directly talk to this.)0 -
RichN95 wrote:As the pedals aren't turning and the chain isn't moving, what do you suppose is driving the wheels then? (Other than old fashioned momentum)
Ok, you got me there :roll: It just looks as if he is going downhill, while everything should be flat there. But he sure got a lot of momentum that day!
I hope this isn't true - I admire Cancellara. And I realise it's easy to make things look real in a video.
On the other hand, this is Team Saxo & Bjarne Riis. Dope user as a cyclist, team leader of Basso. Basso was using dr. Cecchini - friend of Fuentes and old helper of Riis. I don't claim Saxo is not clean, but I would be suspicious. 'They' have a past + they're one of the strongest teams out there in a sports where dope is still used. So not much benefit of the doubt for me there.
Also, what does Cassani have to win here? Suppose he's talking BS.. Why, he can only lose his credibility. If he has any, I don't know him. But this doesn't seem like the type of thing you start spreading without any evidence. Also, the UCI is developing a scanner as they are aware of the problem. So it seems quite likely it already exists. Now the question is if Cancellara had it or not.. Or if he was just good enough to make all the rest look ridiculous.0 -
Did you see him in the world championships last year? Look again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha26GN_RLNc
He annihilated the field and there's NO WAY on earth he could have put a motor down his shivs seat tube. Look at it.
so if he can dominate there without a motor im sure he could do it after a long day of racing.
his ftp is through the roof = he had more in the tank than boonen at that point in the race
his team kept him in a good position all day = less energy wasted also.0 -
This all seems a bit far fetched ,surely ?.Not saying the technology aint there but would anyone really go to these lengths ?.I've got to doubt it myself.Unless this thread is a wind-up and i missed it ? :oops: :shock:
Great Giro by the way 0 -
were the 9/11 conspiracy lizard men sites quiet yesterday?'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'0
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It's all true, except for the part about the concealed switch button on the handlebars. Cancellara has to perform a very unique sequence of well coordinated arm and leg movements to turn on the motor.
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Can someone just confirm this for me, I'm struggling a bit.
Is it being suggested in some quarters that Fabian had a motorised bike in Roubaix, and he used it to finish the race on it?
Because CS have a feature on his 'Project Black Paris-Roubaix' in it's latest edition.
Now in P-R, Fabian had to swap bikes due to his rear Zip 303 cracking big time.
CS have shots of this bike, close ups etc. I am surprised no one picked up on the fact there is a motor on it. (These shots were taken at the end of the day).
Therefore we are to assume his replacement bike had the motor in it, not his original. So I assume that Fabian knew he would need a bike change at some stage, and hence there was no need putting a motor in the first bike.
I'm just trying to figure out how he managed to crack a rear wheel to allow this to take place. Well orchestrated.
And since O'Grady was also riding a 'Project Black' bike, can we assume he had an engine???0 -
has noone noticed that his reflective sunglasses are actually SOLAR PANELS?0
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Rick Chasey wrote:MrChuck wrote:Has Boonen expressed any doubts about how Cancellara pulled away from him or does he think it's reasonable?
No.
That's assuming Boonen doesn't have a motorized bike of his own. Toe the line, or risk having your own batteries flushed down the toilet. It's omerta in action. Or should that be... omoto?0 -
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Call that a superman? Lightweight
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
I don't believe cancellera used a motor but i believe it's feasable. Also using a motor is mich more acceptable to me than using a seedy gyno clinics with fridges full of blood.
I'm a bit of a sad bastard so just got out an old frame and some 18650 cells, frame is aluminium giant scr medium,there is a fairly large airhole so you can *almost* pass a 18650 cell into the downtube by feeding it down the headtube and into the downtube, spend a few mins with a file and you could easily pass a string of 8x18650 cells (provided a flexible connection between cells is used). There are also airholes in the bb so wires could pass from the downtube into the seat tube where the gruber is normally fitted. Do carbon frames have these airholes?
Use 8x18650 cells and you have a concealled battery with the same voltage as the seat pack with 50% capacity. Use 2600 mah cells instead of the more common 2200/2300 mah cells and it's around 58% capacity. That should run for 26 mins rather than the stated 45 mins.0 -
There is no question that this CAN be done. Using model airplane motors and lithium polymer batteries, 100W for 20 minutes is a simple thing. 500+ watts for 3 or 4 minutes is also simple.
The biggest issue would be the noise. Electric motors driving gears would not be quiet at 100W outputs. But cobbled sections with screaming crowds would easily drown it out, and once you pull away...
The weights are miniscule. Hi capacity batteries and powerful motors are available in such variety that you could find a motor for any size tube. The batteries are generally thin, flat cells built up into packs like small bricks, but cylindrical cells are also available and made in large volume for aerospace, computer and other applications.
The other side is the custom bike. Modern composite materials can easily be used to shave a kilo or two off a bike frame.0
