Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...
Comments
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Blazing Saddles wrote:
Lance and co have already said they won't be pursuing any legal action and we all know action speaks louder than words.Pross wrote:OK, thkis thread is too long to read in full but my thoughts are:-
Landis better have some serious evidence or Lance and co are going to take him to the cleaners!
Not sure I agree on this - Landis is destitute so not worth pursuing, and I don't think you should be assumed guilty if you don't sue somebody.0 -
MatHammond wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:
Lance and co have already said they won't be pursuing any legal action and we all know action speaks louder than words.Pross wrote:OK, thkis thread is too long to read in full but my thoughts are:-
Landis better have some serious evidence or Lance and co are going to take him to the cleaners!
Not sure I agree on this - Landis is destitute so not worth pursuing, and I don't think you should be assumed guilty if you don't sue somebody.
it wouldn't be about the money thou...
even if they lost out cash wise just to maintain credibility is important for the biz to be carried on the back of LA's image..
brand protection"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
jnr_h wrote:I cannot believe how blinkered the reaction to this is.
You allow your prejudices to blind you to such an extent that you will accept the word of a man who has continually lied and cheated over both the course of his career and under oath.
For the record, I don't think that these guys are all clean and that everything is rosy and clean in the pro ranks, but it seems like the vast majority of people on this forum would happily break out the pitchforks and torches on the basis of some pretty wild and so far unsubstantiated claims.
Come on -- the people who can blow the whistle on this culture are going to have dubious reputations. They are going to be lairs and cheats.
Riders that are as pure as driven snow -- generally don't have first hand knowledge.
If you want a clean sport -- you have to deal with the Landis, Kohl, Sinkwitz types.0 -
jnr_h wrote:Av it wrote:Cures for cancer have to be brutal
Cycling is a patient and lance and fat pat are the cancer, cut em out and irradiate
I cannot believe how blinkered the reaction to this is.
You allow your prejudices to blind you to such an extent that you will accept the word of a man who has continually lied and cheated over both the course of his career and under oath.
Its not just one man though - there has been LOTS of witnesses coming forward and the samples from 1999 contained EPO. I dont see what FLandis has to gain by bringing the wrath of Armstrong down on him ?
I'm not so bothered about past history now - but I'd like some resolution so we can move forward and things may be cleaner in the past. Find out how people dope and evade testing positive so that in future its harder to do. (if thats even possible ?)0 -
Fotherington is talking about a 'truth and reconciliation committee', let alone an amnesty
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/ma ... oyd-landis0 -
MatHammond wrote:Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Basso (Disco), Vaughters and Andreu (confessed but not "convicted") off the top of my head. Oh, and Armstrong (failed a few tests but not "convicted").
what amazes me is that if the Postal programme is so good surely the riders would still do the same thing when they went to another team. Once you learn one plus one is two you don't move teams and then claim it is three. If they did the same practices then how come they get caught on another team.0 -
cyclists cheating? its a revelation. cycling is the sport of junkies.0
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True enough, but even if he was got rid of, he is only the President Elect. Wasn't Hein Verbruggen made Honorary Life President of the UCI as part of the scam that put McQuaid into position, and he is McQuaid's puppet master. How is he to be got rid of?iainf72 wrote:So Pat was copied on the emails.
He needs to go. He really really does.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
True enough, but even if he was got rid of, he is only the President Elect. Wasn't Hein Verbruggen made Honorary Life President of the UCI as part of the scam that put McQuaid into position, and his is McQuaid's puppet master. How is he to be got rid of?iainf72 wrote:So Pat was copied on the emails.
He needs to go. He really really does.
get rid of the UCI"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
It's nice that the UCI have decided that they don't need to investigate. With the money they have saved they can buy some more blazers.0
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In part because not been busted requires a certain amount of 'protection' at the highest level, and the only rider the UCI / McQuaid are really interested in protecting is Armstrong.sherer wrote:what amazes me is that if the Postal programme is so good surely the riders would still do the same thing when they went to another team. Once you learn one plus one is two you don't move teams and then claim it is three. If they did the same practices then how come they get caught on another team.0 -
You may recall that a few years ago, when McQuaid was determined to see Astana ride the Tour despite them being busted for blood-doping the previous year, a number of major organisers and the Federations of the major European cycling nations tried to break away from the corruption of the UCI. In part this was because of the UCI's attempt to grab the TV rights to the major races and because the UCI wanted to dictate who organisers who got to ride their events. However, it was also because Patrice Clerc had temporarily persuaded the ASO that the only way the Tour had a long-term future was to tackle doping in a more robust manner than the UCI was prepared to do.mididoctors wrote:get rid of the UCI
Unfortunately this came to nothing, largely because the leaders of the 'non-entity' cycling nations, including Brian Cookson of British Cycling, decided to back the UCI. Thanks Brian...0 -
Here, here. And that goes for all the others who have been intimidated into silence over the years by the Armstrong machine. If they stay silent now, they are as culpable as Pharmstrong, McQuaid and Verbruggen.Bakunin wrote:It seems to me that Vaughters, more than anyone else, is in a position to speak out...If he doesn't -- I think the whole Garmin adventure is a lot of happy talk.0 -
My tuppence worth:
Thanks for this thread, it's been hugely informative and interesting reading. As I'm new here I'll introduce myself: a nearly 40 once a bit of a cycling fan, though never in any big way. As a kid I used to watch the TdF on Channel 4 and burn round the block pretending to be Hinault. I remember back to the times of Kelly, Millar, Fignon, Roche etc. I watched the sport naively. I knew there was doping, but it always seemed to be the chancers, a bit dodgy every now and again and liable to get caught at it. I knew there were plenty of riders that might take something to get them over the mountains, but I didn't really begrudge them it that much. The sport has a long history of cheating and mostly it's a bit naughty, a bit cheeky, including things like taking short cuts, let alone drugs.
Festina in '98 ripped apart my naivety. Suddenly I was aware of the systemic nature of doping in cycling. It ceased to be something that a few riders were doing in private and became something that was instigated and organised by team bosses. Since then cycling has been dead to me as a spectator sport (I've never raced, but enjoy a good ride now and again). I've not watched more than 5 minutes in the last 12 years, having followed all the tours up until then. I won't watch it again until I can be reasonably confident that such cheating as there is is on an individual basis, and is the minority not the majority. I won't watch it again until the shameful culture of omerta is done away with. And I won't watch it again while Armstrong is still riding.
As for Landis, good for him. He's not one of the sport's good guys and I'd hesitate to attribute any noble moral purpose to what he's done, but thank him for doing it anyway. I imagine that having been hung out to dry, having fought a deceitful battle to clear his name, but all the while sticking to omerta, he's more than a bit pissed off at suffering what must seem like a similar fate to those that break the silence. Didn't he once claim he was offered a deal to hand over Armstrong, but wouldn't take it? If that's really true then he took the rap alone and then found out he wasn't welcome anymore anyway. Bitter and twisted? I think I probably would be. So if he's already paid the price but doesn't feel his co-conspirators appreciate the fact then why not turn them in?
Some here have worried that the Landis accusations could bring down cycling, set it back "50 years". I prefer to think of it as an opportunity to finally emerge from the darkness of the nineties and start over again. I really hope that more comes out, though precedent suggests that it will be brushed under the carpet. The pro-cycling community is already circling the wagons, doing their utmost to discredit Landis without addressing the allegations. I'd not heard of McQuaid before this thread, but I'm horrified by his response.
I'd like to be able to watch a TdF again, I really would. Or a Giro, Vuelta, one day classic, whatever. I'm lead to believe that cycling now is already far cleaner than it was back then, but it needs that final push.
Sorry for the length, thanks for reading, and thanks again for a great thread.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
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Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
The peleton are a lot more outspoken on drugs cheats in the past few years than they were back in the days of Festina. I think this is a good sign.0 -
Still no response from Wiggins...cougie wrote:The peloton are a lot more outspoken on drugs cheats in the past few years than they were back in the days of Festina.
http://twitter.com/bradwiggins0 -
Why do you feel Wiggins owes you an explanation?BikingBernie wrote:
Still no response from Wiggins...cougie wrote:The peloton are a lot more outspoken on drugs cheats in the past few years than they were back in the days of Festina.
http://twitter.com/bradwiggins
My take on his lack of shooting his mouth off about other teams and riders is that he now has the responsiblity of leading a team at the Tour and looking ot make the Podium. Other riders can't win you the race, but they sure can make your life a lot more difficult if you go around making enemys by shooitng your mouth of. He is no position to influence/clarify these allegations one way or the other so what can he add that would satisfy you?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Wiggins has a big salary and "corporate responsibility" at work, he's no doubt been briefed on the right way to behave in public, and getting involved in legally hot issues is not going to be for him.0
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disgruntledgoat wrote:
Why do you feel Wiggins owes you an explanation?BikingBernie wrote:
Still no response from Wiggins...cougie wrote:The peloton are a lot more outspoken on drugs cheats in the past few years than they were back in the days of Festina.
http://twitter.com/bradwiggins
My take on his lack of shooting his mouth off about other teams and riders is that he now has the responsibility of leading a team at the Tour and looking ot make the Podium. Other riders can't win you the race, but they sure can make your life a lot more difficult if you go around making enemies by shooting your mouth of. He is no position to influence/clarify these allegations one way or the other so what can he add that would satisfy you?
thats one of the problems with whole mess... a lot of guys just dont want to pitch in as they perceive they have something to lose especially if they are at the front end of the racing...
when wiggins was a "off the back"" also ran" he was way more vocal... saying "we should not race with these guys"
but your right... once he is within a shout of the podium.. this is the omerta in action
dont make enemies..
I agree he is not in a position to really comment about the specifics but .....
this is how it is I guess"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Kléber wrote:Wiggins has a big salary and "corporate responsibility" at work, he's no doubt been briefed on the right way to behave in public, and getting involved in legally hot issues is not going to be for him.
in essence everyone is in the process of closing ranks...
well if they dont make it stick they are going to bury themselves and if they do bury it then they are on course for losing respect again!"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I don't see what Wiggins can contribute, apart from a flippant twitter comment!
He was speaking out against doping long before others.0 -
Kléber wrote:I don't see what Wiggins can contribute, apart from a flippant twitter comment!
He was speaking out against doping long before others.
yeah that is true.... but there is remarkably little chatter from the bunch in general dont you think?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Because he used to say things like the following. (You know, in the days before he was transformed into a Tour contender).disgruntledgoat wrote:
Why do you feel Wiggins owes you an explanation?BikingBernie wrote:
Wiggins: Landis "took us riders for fools"
Bradley Wiggins of Cofidis is ashamed of his sport. "After last year's Tour de France I didn't feel proud to be a professional cyclist," he told the Daily Mirror. "And I feel the same now. Doping problems affect everyone in the peloton," noted the 26 year-old. "I've got children, a wife and a house and I could lose my livelihood because someone who tests positive finishes ahead of me. It's about time someone had some balls and told it how it was. There are enough of us who think the way I do."
"They say it's only one or two but I'm sure more people are doing these things. So it's my role as a role-model to expose it and not pretend it isn't happening,"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... feb05news2
If nothing is done now and this thing continues and we get to next year and there's yet more scandal I can only sit here and do so many press conferences and try and protect the credibility of the sport and say everything is gonna be alright for so long before people start saying, 'We've heard this one before.'
The riders have got to take a stand too as a group. If it almost means that we're sitting on the start line at the next race in a month's time saying, 'Look, we're not riding with this guy' and put him at the back of the field or not start the race if there's any suspicion on this guy - if that's what it's gonna take then that's what it's gonna take.
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/si ... script.asp0 -
I reckon he's just lost his phone...0
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Bakunin wrote:jnr_h wrote:I cannot believe how blinkered the reaction to this is.
You allow your prejudices to blind you to such an extent that you will accept the word of a man who has continually lied and cheated over both the course of his career and under oath.
For the record, I don't think that these guys are all clean and that everything is rosy and clean in the pro ranks, but it seems like the vast majority of people on this forum would happily break out the pitchforks and torches on the basis of some pretty wild and so far unsubstantiated claims.
Come on -- the people who can blow the whistle on this culture are going to have dubious reputations. They are going to be lairs and cheats.
Riders that are as pure as driven snow -- generally don't have first hand knowledge.
If you want a clean sport -- you have to deal with the Landis, Kohl, Sinkwitz types.
I agree - deal with them - listen to what they have to say and investigate the allegations appropriately. I just don't see how the riders named can be considered guilty until there is proof of the alleged offences.
The reason i am cynical about the scale of the allegations is that I feel like there would simply be too many people involved over the length of these guys careers. Mechanics, bus drivers, masseurs, etc. I just don't see how these people could all be so loyal as to not speak up - and if what Landis claims is true, they must have all known about it since they were apparently so open about it.0 -
He had better borrow one quick, before he completely loses his former credibility as well...timmyflash wrote:I reckon he's just lost his phone...0 -
He could hold a press conference, or issue a strongly-worded statement, or do an interview for the press, just like he used to...Kléber wrote:I don't see what Wiggins can contribute, apart from a flippant twitter comment!0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Because he used to say things like the following. (You know, in the days before he was transformed into a Tour contender).disgruntledgoat wrote:
Why do you feel Wiggins owes you an explanation?BikingBernie wrote:
Ok... So what can he add? Other than potentially libelling a whole boat of riders including the richest most powerful one and one of his team mates? At the moment these are still allegations. Compelling, easily believeable allegations... but still undocumented and unproven."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
He had better borrow one quick, before he completely loses his former credibility as well...timmyflash wrote:I reckon he's just lost his phone...
Considered he's in a hard position right now given the finger pointing at Barry?The British Empire never died, it just moved to the Velodrome0
