Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...
Comments
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iainf72 wrote:So Pat was copied on the emails.
He needs to go. He really really does.
+1000
Now... how easy would it be to get a sufficiently large group together and human chain across the road at the TdF demanding McQuaid's resignation? Probably wouldn't do anything in the grand scheme of things, but it'd feel like ordinary cyclists and fans could actually voice their opinion. I'm fed up of cycling being dragged through the ringer every couple of years and the solution is a top-down systematic change.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:As much as I would like to see Lance get his comeuppance, and I really would, it'll be the end of any growth in popularity pro cycling has experienced here in the UK, if he does.
Lance is a little like a big bank in cycling. Made a fortune during times when the regulation was a little lax, managed to get away with it, but now the sh!t hits the fan and he's basically 'too big to fail'. It'd really cripple cycling if Lance ever admits to doping.
nahhhhh
wasn't even a topic at the thursday races the other day....
the reason this can happen now is lance is drifting ever so slowly out the back of the bunch
he is no longer to big to fail.........."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Its interesting reading the mainstream press and looking at this impartially - its easy to spin it as "bitter cheat admits to doping, tries to implicate sporting great". In that context, McQuaid's statement just reads like a reasonable and firm response. Obviously, many of us have suspected for years what Landis is now saying, so in that context McQuaid's statement reads like an appalling yet sadly predictable load of old b******t. IMO Vaughters needs to back Landis - that could really make the difference here, if Vaughters, White and Zabriskie came out with something corroborating what Landis is saying then that would stamp on the whole "he's just a bitter cheat trying to make some money" angle and the UCI / Bruyneel & co would then really have to get their house in order. Interesting times...0
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...But they won't, Vaughters ins't going to risk the livlihood his team has brought him, White and Zabriskie won't risk their employment... That's how Omerta works, it isn't just shady DS's holding a gun to peoples heads, youhave to act against your own interests to do anything about it."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
huuregeil wrote:iainf72 wrote:So Pat was copied on the emails.
He needs to go. He really really does.
+1000 .
+2m
Iain, where you seeing that he is on the emails. That is crazy.
What I don't understand is who he is accountable to - those ppl, if they exist also need to get the boot. In fact just get rid of the whole lot of those corrupt ppl living a nice, easy life in lovely Switzerland.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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frenchfighter wrote:
Iain, where you seeing that he is on the emails. That is crazy.
What I don't understand is who he is accountable to - those ppl, if they exist also need to get the boot. In fact just get rid of the whole lot of those corrupt ppl living a nice, easy life in lovely Switzerland.
I don't think that was directly reported, but CN mentioned the emails had been sent to top officials at the UCI. It's likely McQuaid received it directly or via another official. Or if a top official had thought it not fit to inform McQuaid that this story was going down, then there's a serious leadership problem. Either way, McQuaid, as head, needs to take full responsibility for this.0 -
Interesting how McQuaid is so keen on leaving any investigation into this to outside bodies, given that it's not that long ago that he was trying to prevent the French authorities from having anything to do with dope testing at pro events in France (especially at the Tour) arguing that was the job of the UCI. Just more McQuaid / UCI hypocrisy forced on him by his desire to protect Armstrong.0
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Pokerface wrote:AidanR wrote:Pokerface wrote:If Landis was sending Armstrong and Bruyneel constant email threats and trying to blackmail them, etc - surely they would be able to provide copies of these emails to the media to prove what they are saying?
Armstrong's statement that "It is his word verses ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility." - screams 'guilty' to me. Someone like Armstrong would have copies of any and all emails sent to him trying to blackmail him, etc - and would use them to show his innocence. If he were.
Yes, but if those e-mails threatened him by saying "I will expose the truth about you" or "I will tell the world what happened on the team bus" then they wouldn't really be a great defence
That's kind of my point.
If you are innocent and someone tries to blackmail you with claims against you that you KNOW are untrue - surely you take action against them? However - if you you know what they are saying is true - you try and cover it up.
BUT - now that this is all out in the open anyway - and Lance et Co. are claiming that Landis was trying to blackmail them with false claims fro years - then it would make sense to show these emails to prove that Landis actually DID try this.
It might lend credence to their story that Landis is just a quack.
Either Landis DID send the emails - or Lance and Co. Are lying about them to try and make him look desperate. (Or maybe he DID send them the emails, but his claims were also true?)
What a mess.
Yeah, I started typing that because I thought it was partly in response to what I wrote, then realised it probably wasn't so changed it a bit and added the wink, but yeah, I got your point but probably didn't make it clear!frenchfighter wrote:
+like, a millionty billion Bike lover and part-time cyclist.0 -
Well he seems to have got the emails but the process is that the US authorities have to investigate, so he's letting that happen. Although the Verbruggen accusation gets brushed over.iainf72 wrote:So Pat was copied on the emails.
He needs to go. He really really does.
Interestingly several people have had the emails for some time. Kimmage knew quite early on it seems. What is odd though is that McQuaid is accusing Landis of an "agenda" and blaming him for the leaks.
Above all, the UCI seemed to have fluffed the response. They new about this well in advance but came out with contradictory and confused response.0 -
I think we have to accept that admissions about systematic doping are not in the interests of many people who are currently involved at the top level.
The big question for me is whether the sport can ever gain credibility without all the skeletons being cleared from the cupboards. McQuaid appears to think it can, but he's not painted himself or the UCI in a good light at all.0 -
58585 wrote:I think we have to accept that admissions about systematic doping are not in the interests of many people who are currently involved at the top level.
The big question for me is whether the sport can ever gain credibility without all the skeletons being cleared from the cupboards. McQuaid appears to think it can, but he's not painted himself or the UCI in a good light at all.
its a graveyard not a cupboard...
amnesty is the way I would go if I could and a shut off date...
retrospective testing still carried out but no sanctions for anything if you fess up now... even if you got goofed up yesterday
final solution: delete fcuk1ng everything
the UCI to go"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
mididoctors wrote:58585 wrote:I think we have to accept that admissions about systematic doping are not in the interests of many people who are currently involved at the top level.
The big question for me is whether the sport can ever gain credibility without all the skeletons being cleared from the cupboards. McQuaid appears to think it can, but he's not painted himself or the UCI in a good light at all.
its a graveyard not a cupboard...
amnesty is the way I would go if I could and a shut off date...
retrospective testing still carried out but no sanctions for anything if you fess up now... even if you got goofed up yesterday
final solution: delete fcuk1ng everything
the UCI to go
Practical and 100% agree0 -
Av it wrote:mididoctors wrote:58585 wrote:I think we have to accept that admissions about systematic doping are not in the interests of many people who are currently involved at the top level.
The big question for me is whether the sport can ever gain credibility without all the skeletons being cleared from the cupboards. McQuaid appears to think it can, but he's not painted himself or the UCI in a good light at all.
its a graveyard not a cupboard...
amnesty is the way I would go if I could and a shut off date...
retrospective testing still carried out but no sanctions for anything if you fess up now... even if you got goofed up yesterday
final solution: delete fcuk1ng everything
the UCI to go
Practical and 100% agree
unfortunately I don't think its practical...
a more realistic option is the slow emergence of a new anti-omerta that works in the opposite direction fostered by a new cycling culture
will take time"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:...But they won't, Vaughters ins't going to risk the livlihood his team has brought him, White and Zabriskie won't risk their employment... That's how Omerta works, it isn't just shady DS's holding a gun to peoples heads, youhave to act against your own interests to do anything about it.
I disagree. It seems to me that Vaughters, more than anyone else, is in a position to speak out. I think we have to make a distinction between Garmin the team and Garmin the project to bring about a cleaner sport. It is in JV and Garmin's interest to say yes, some of this stuff happened and we are proof that there is another way. I think it is called a teaching moment.
JV's team is established and it has had success -- his livelihood is not at risk. The fact that Lim, White, and DZ are named should force his hand.
If he doesn't -- I think the whole Garmin adventure is a lot of happy talk.0 -
Cures for cancer have to be brutal
Cycling is a patient and lance and fat pat are the cancer, cut em out and irradiate0 -
Yeah, I was thinking about the amnesty idea too. Absolute 100% amnesty on condition of full confidential co-operation, naming names, procedures, suppliers etc. All riders subject to amnesty, but DSs, doctors, and other middle men who are nailed get banned from the sport sine die.
Then from Day One after the amnesty, new testing based on information gained from confessions etc and life bans for riders on first offence.
Got to break properly from the past now and this is the only way to do it. Of course many riders will still keep hush even with an amnesty dangled in front of them, there's too much reputation at stake, but really this is the ony way for fans to have any real belief in what they see on the road.My cycle racing blog: http://cyclingapprentice.wordpress.com/
If you live in or near Sussex, check this out:
http://ontherivet.ning.com/0 -
Av it wrote:mididoctors wrote:58585 wrote:I think we have to accept that admissions about systematic doping are not in the interests of many people who are currently involved at the top level.
The big question for me is whether the sport can ever gain credibility without all the skeletons being cleared from the cupboards. McQuaid appears to think it can, but he's not painted himself or the UCI in a good light at all.
its a graveyard not a cupboard...
amnesty is the way I would go if I could and a shut off date...
retrospective testing still carried out but no sanctions for anything if you fess up now... even if you got goofed up yesterday
final solution: delete fcuk1ng everything
the UCI to go
Practical and 100% agree
I don't see how an amnesty can work in practice, I mean would we be happy to see Valverde wait another few months until it was in place, then say "fair cop, I did cheat, but we've got an amnesty now". I'm guessing those riders who have already served bans (or who are serving bans at the moment) would be pretty hacked off, as would clean riders beaten by doped riders who would effectively get away with it. There's too much money involved, also doping is criminal in several countries, so I don't see how an amnesty could be a practical solution, however good it might sound in theory. People will just have to bite the bullet and take the ban. Barry could be interesting - if what Landis is saying about him is true, I'd imagine Sky would feel compelled to terminate his contract but he might come under some pressure to 'fess up, as part of the Sky spin machine.0 -
One problem is guilt by association.
The guys named will be involved in the sport for many, many years to come as riders, directeur sportifs, team owners etc. If they are involved in any capacity there still will be question marks. Even "clean teams" are tarred by these allegations.
I do worry that the UCI has accepted that a clean sport is simply not possible.0 -
Bakunin wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:...But they won't, Vaughters ins't going to risk the livlihood his team has brought him, White and Zabriskie won't risk their employment... That's how Omerta works, it isn't just shady DS's holding a gun to peoples heads, youhave to act against your own interests to do anything about it.
I disagree. It seems to me that Vaughters, more than anyone else, is in a position to speak out. I think we have to make a distinction between Garmin the team and Garmin the project to bring about a cleaner sport. It is in JV and Garmin's interest to say yes, some of this stuff happened and we are proof that there is another way. I think it is called a teaching moment.
JV's team is established and it has had success -- his livelihood is not at risk. The fact that Lim, White, and DZ are named should force his hand.
If he doesn't -- I think the whole Garmin adventure is a lot of happy talk.
+1 - not an easy decision, but I actually think backing Landis would be the lesser of two evils for the Garmin project, the alternative completely undermines everything they (supposedly) stand for.0 -
Then it becomes two, or three or more people but until there is documentary proof, even a Greek chorus can't incriminate anyone.Bakunin wrote:JV's team is established and it has had success -- his livelihood is not at risk. The fact that Lim, White, and DZ are named should force his hand.0 -
MatHammond wrote:Av it wrote:mididoctors wrote:58585 wrote:I think we have to accept that admissions about systematic doping are not in the interests of many people who are currently involved at the top level.
The big question for me is whether the sport can ever gain credibility without all the skeletons being cleared from the cupboards. McQuaid appears to think it can, but he's not painted himself or the UCI in a good light at all.
its a graveyard not a cupboard...
amnesty is the way I would go if I could and a shut off date...
retrospective testing still carried out but no sanctions for anything if you fess up now... even if you got goofed up yesterday
final solution: delete fcuk1ng everything
the UCI to go
Practical and 100% agree
I don't see how an amnesty can work in practice, I mean would we be happy to see Valverde wait another few months until it was in place, then say "fair cop, I did cheat, but we've got an amnesty now". I'm guessing those riders who have already served bans (or who are serving bans at the moment) would be pretty hacked off, as would clean riders beaten by doped riders who would effectively get away with it. There's too much money involved, also doping is criminal in several countries, so I don't see how an amnesty could be a practical solution, however good it might sound in theory. People will just have to bite the bullet and take the ban. Barry could be interesting - if what Landis is saying about him is true, I'd imagine Sky would feel compelled to terminate his contract but he might come under some pressure to 'fess up, as part of the Sky spin machine.
agree with you there. a amnesty ain't practical which is a shame....
Dave Z and Barry fessing up would be a really good thing...and good for sky and Garmin I think
vaughters could do a Riis but I think ASO would let him turn up at the tour....
EDIT perhaps a living wage support for Dave Z and Barry for the 2 years out..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
OK, thkis thread is too long to read in full but my thoughts are:-
Landis better have some serious evidence or Lance and co are going to take him to the cleaners!
If LA is proven to have cheated I'll have mixed feelings. I'll be glad that he has finally be caught with it hopefully sending a message to those who continue to cheat that eventually anyone can be found out but at the same time the damage to cycling if possibly it's highest ever profile rider and most successful TdF rider of all time is shown to have been a drugs cheat.
For the latter reason the cynic in me says that the top brass in cycling just will not let any proof of guilt come out (and I suspect that this reason more than the rumoured cash handed over would have been the reason for any previous cover up of a failed test).
Based on what Andreu has been put through Landis has a tough few years ahead, especially as he won't be regarded as particularly credible. Hard to feel sorry for the guy though, may have had some sympathy for him if he just did this as soon as he was caught but he spent all that time fighting his case and has only let the cat out of the bag when he exhausted all other options.0 -
Kléber wrote:
Then it becomes two, or three or more people but until there is documentary proof, even a Greek chorus can't incriminate anyone.Bakunin wrote:JV's team is established and it has had success -- his livelihood is not at risk. The fact that Lim, White, and DZ are named should force his hand.
Proof -- I think Kimmage was right about that yesterday: what is that? What will look like bassed on what Landis says -- pictures, needles, video, bags of blood?
There is plenty of proof in OP -- but that got us nowehere.
If Garmin represents a line in the sand -- JV has to stand up and answer some questions. Questions that he has avoided for a long time.0 -
Just out of interest could we compile a list of ex-US Postal/Disco riders who have been convicted for doping offences either with the teams or after?
It's just i'd like to see it in real terms 'cos I'm too young to to remember those days.0 -
Bakunin wrote:
If Garmin represents a line in the sand -- JV has to stand up and answer some questions. Questions that he has avoided for a long time.
on balance I think he has more to gain than lose... he shoud do it would be my advice to him
and the distant view point is sometimes the better vantage point..these guys are all wrapped up in this mess so tight they don't really know how to untie the knots"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Av it wrote:Cures for cancer have to be brutal
Cycling is a patient and lance and fat pat are the cancer, cut em out and irradiate
I cannot believe how blinkered the reaction to this is.
You allow your prejudices to blind you to such an extent that you will accept the word of a man who has continually lied and cheated over both the course of his career and under oath.
For the record, I don't think that these guys are all clean and that everything is rosy and clean in the pro ranks, but it seems like the vast majority of people on this forum would happily break out the pitchforks and torches on the basis of some pretty wild and so far unsubstantiated claims.0 -
Lance and co have already said they won't be pursuing any legal action and we all know action speaks louder than words.Pross wrote:OK, thkis thread is too long to read in full but my thoughts are:-
Landis better have some serious evidence or Lance and co are going to take him to the cleaners!"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Basso (Disco), Vaughters and Andreu (confessed but not "convicted") off the top of my head. Oh, and Armstrong (failed a few tests but not "convicted").0
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Blazing Saddles wrote:
Lance and co have already said they won't be pursuing any legal action and we all know action speaks louder than words.Pross wrote:OK, thkis thread is too long to read in full but my thoughts are:-
Landis better have some serious evidence or Lance and co are going to take him to the cleaners!
seems odd to me.... surprising"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
