Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...
Comments
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Bakunin wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:...But they won't, Vaughters ins't going to risk the livlihood his team has brought him, White and Zabriskie won't risk their employment... That's how Omerta works, it isn't just shady DS's holding a gun to peoples heads, youhave to act against your own interests to do anything about it.
I disagree. It seems to me that Vaughters, more than anyone else, is in a position to speak out. I think we have to make a distinction between Garmin the team and Garmin the project to bring about a cleaner sport. It is in JV and Garmin's interest to say yes, some of this stuff happened and we are proof that there is another way. I think it is called a teaching moment.
JV's team is established and it has had success -- his livelihood is not at risk. The fact that Lim, White, and DZ are named should force his hand.
If he doesn't -- I think the whole Garmin adventure is a lot of happy talk.
I think the dilemma JV if he doe come out in support of what Landis is saying he is feeding DZ to the lions. And DZ saying hang on boss your going to give me the boot for doing something you did as well, but you keep your job? JV should be knocking on the door of the USA Federation to see if there is some sort of reduced ban for info given?
I also think JV missed a great opportunity to come clean the same time as Riis and Zabel did. That come back and bit him on the backside.0 -
cougie wrote:Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
Yes, I watch football (Arsenal fan), I'd love to see the list of names from puerto, as we all would I think. I'm sure there's widespread abuse in football, but doping control is almost non-existent and seems to focus on players using recreational drugs... The Milan lab makes me very suspicious.... I wait for the day when a few really big drugs scandals rock the sport, and hope my team isn't involved.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
jnr_h wrote:The reason i am cynical about the scale of the allegations is that I feel like there would simply be too many people involved over the length of these guys careers. Mechanics, bus drivers, masseurs, etc. I just don't see how these people could all be so loyal as to not speak up - and if what Landis claims is true, they must have all known about it since they were apparently so open about it.
Yeah -- you're right to be cynical. The sport is a joke. But it's a joke largely because those at the top, those with real power, have allowed it become something that is laughed at.
The journalists have to work the details and the people in the know have to break rank and tell the truth (i.e. Vaughters).
Geez, we have to give Wiggins, Millar, Gerdermann, Cuengo, and Basso a break -- they are trying to win a bike race.0 -
Not so ancient history on WADA/UCI:
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/News-Center/ ... ttlement-/
It will be interesting to see how the UCI go forward now, the most serious allegation is against them, or Verbruggen anyway.0 -
fastercyclist wrote:BikingBernie wrote:
He had better borrow one quick, before he completely loses his former credibility as well...timmyflash wrote:I reckon he's just lost his phone...
Considered he's in a hard position right now given the finger pointing at Barry?
think about this...
if Barry is guilty in essence the state and future of his(wiiggins) career is dependent on Barry being protected
wiggins has been brought into the fold along with sky
note this is true EVEN IF barry is innocent!
thats how FFFFFed up the situation is
Now to be fair to Sky and wiggins there are alot of other people higher in the food cahin of history who need to start talking..
so in that way picking on wiggins seems unfair... But he did stick his head above the parapet.
easy have principles when you have little to lose..
disappointed with JV and Garmin more... is winning the bl00dy ToC that big a deal?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Bakunin wrote:
Geez, we have to give Wiggins, Millar, Gerdermann, Cuengo, and Basso a break -- they are trying to win a bike race.
+1 Yes! Out of office.0 -
Manuel Beltran when part of Liquigas in the Tour in 2008 - the same team as Franco (I don't work with Ferrari) Pellizotti and now BassoMatHammond wrote:Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Basso (Disco), Vaughters and Andreu (confessed but not "convicted") off the top of my head. Oh, and Armstrong (failed a few tests but not "convicted").
Also - Li Fiyu of Team Radioshack has failed a test this year http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/23042010/ ... -test.html
So that's 8 of his team-mates who have been *actually* done for doping or who have admitted it.
Not counting the allegations about Matt White, Dave Zabriskie, George Hincapie and Michael Barry and also Steve Swart alledges they were drug taking at Motorola in 19950 -
I don't see Wiggo's silence as anything unusual in itself, but I do agree with mididoctors that the Twitter peloton in general is much quieter than normal. I can't find one rider who has even mentioned it. Compare that to when Pellizotti got done.0
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No tA Doctor wrote:cougie wrote:Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
Yes, I watch football (Arsenal fan), I'd love to see the list of names from puerto, as we all would I think. I'm sure there's widespread abuse in football, but doping control is almost non-existent and seems to focus on players using recreational drugs... The Milan lab makes me very suspicious.... I wait for the day when a few really big drugs scandals rock the sport, and hope my team isn't involved.
i can lay your mind at rest and reassure you with a degree certainity measured at about 99.9999999999999999999% it probably is"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
If I were David B and a big believer in this "marginal gains" stuff, I'd be keeping my riders away from Twitter and othe distractions while they are riding a GT. IIRC, Wiggo stopped Tweeting last week - it wasn't as if he'd clammed up in the past 24 hours while the wagons were being circled.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0
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afx237vi wrote:I don't see Wiggo's silence as anything unusual in itself, but I do agree with mididoctors that the Twitter peloton in general is much quieter than normal. I can't find one rider who has even mentioned it. Compare that to when Pellizotti got done.
thank you... SSDD
I'm not impressed ... the silence is deafening"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
LangerDan wrote:If I were David B and a big believer in this "marginal gains" stuff, I'd be keeping my riders away from Twitter and othe distractions while they are riding a GT. IIRC, Wiggo stopped Tweeting last week - it wasn't as if he'd clammed up in the past 24 hours while the wagons were being circled.
that is true actually"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Good post/contribution TA.
Apart from Wiggins, who is currently in the middle of a GT and so I assume is pretty occupied...
What about that child Cavendish. He has a big mouth. He is outspoken about Ricco and the like. What does he have to say for himself? Nothing as far I have seen. Why, well likely because he is an uber fanboy of Lance. Loser.Contador is the Greatest0 -
mididoctors wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:cougie wrote:Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
Yes, I watch football (Arsenal fan), I'd love to see the list of names from puerto, as we all would I think. I'm sure there's widespread abuse in football, but doping control is almost non-existent and seems to focus on players using recreational drugs... The Milan lab makes me very suspicious.... I wait for the day when a few really big drugs scandals rock the sport, and hope my team isn't involved.
i can lay your mind at rest and reassure you with a degree certainity measured at about 99.9999999999999999999% it probably is
sounds like we have gone all cycling news forum now where everyone in sport must dope to some degree.
I can understand the peleton being quiet as these are only rumours from someone seen as a liar and cheat who has turned on all of them so why back him up if you could lose your whole career over it. Omerta still working0 -
but the general point about the peloton pulling down shutters still holds"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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frenchfighter wrote:Good post/contribution TA.
Apart from Wiggins, who is currently in the middle of a GT and so I assume is pretty occupied...
What about that child Cavendish. He has a big mouth. He is outspoken about Ricco and the like. What does he have to say for himself? Nothing as far I have seen. Why, well likely because he is an uber fanboy of Lance. Loser.
The libel angle has no traction with you?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Are you actually aware of how many people, including former employees and team-mates of Armstrong, have spoken out about Armstrong's doping over the years, and what the consequences of them doing so has been? Probably not, given that much of what these people have said has been erased from the record. For example, just look how the revelations by Jesus Manzano were repeated in full by the world's cycling media - all except the part where he said how the UCI's hemotologist used to tip off the USP / Disco team doctor when a blood test was about to be done.jnr_h wrote:The reason i am cynical about the scale of the allegations is that I feel like there would simply be too many people involved over the length of these guys careers.
Here is a link to a scan of the original article, although it is no longer available on the L'Equipe site.This laboratory who is in charge of sending the "UCI" vampires (doctors)to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hemotologist, called Walter Viru, who is one of the doctors for Kelme to alert them the day before the UCI vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclist. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his.
http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf
Similarly, you won't find many copies of the following on the internet...
L'EQUIPE
October 6, 2005, page 12.
English translation of "Ce qui s'est passe sur le Tour 2005".
Photo
Prentice Steffen, USA, 44 years old
-Specialist in both Emergency Medicine, in San Francisco (USA), and Sports Medicine
-Worked successively for the cycling teams Subaru-Montgomery (1993-1995), US Postal (1996), Mercury (1998-2002), Prime Alliance (2003), Health Net (2004), then TIAA-CREF (2005)
Prentice Steffen, the ex-doctor for US Postal let go at the end of 1996 for not wanting to respond to the doping trend, reveals the new practices of the peloton.
"What happened during the 2005 Tour (de France)"
Dr. Prentice Steffen, his diplomas attest to the fact, is a model doctor. Specialist in both Emergency Medicine and Sports Medicine, he worked for four years, from 1993-1996, with the American cyclists of the teams Subaru-Montgomery then US Postal. In 1996, "during the height of the reign of EPO", his riders were totally destroyed during the Tour of Switzerland and two among them, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton, asked him in veiled words to help them dope. He refused and alerted the team directors. At the end of the year, his contract was not renewed and one morning the mailman delivered him a registered letter with the intimidation order to not talk about his experience in the heart of US Postal. "A few months later," he remembers, "the nine riders of the team rode the Champs-Elysees of the finish of the 1997 Tour de France. I realized they'd move on to EPO...". Today, despite threats from Lance Armstrong (1), Dr. Steffen is still in the milieu (of cycling). He takes care of a team of young American professionals (TIAA-CREF) which disputed the latest edition of the Tour de l'Avenir.
L'EQUIPE:
With all that you know about doping and the practices of a part of the peloton, why are you involved with young cyclists"
STEFFEN:
The pressure to dope for riders under the age of 25 is not so strong. Big teams don't want to see young guys arrive in their ranks with an already bad reputation. There's also the fact of being able to race in France. It's easier. If we come to race in France, with our team of young riders, it's not because our sponsor loves Avignon and Provence, but rather because we know we have a better chance to do well, even win. Thanks to the fear of the police, thanks to the journalists, and thanks to the fight against doping in place in your country. French riders, maybe due to these forces, have tried to change. We only race in your country and in the United States.
L'EQUIPE:
Your young riders are knowledgeable about doping?
STEFFEN:
They have a very clear understanding about things and about the environment they're in. To be among the best, one has to dope. For them, it's certain. I don't think they doubt it for an instant. But there are people fighting to change this situation. Jonathon Vaughters, the director of our team, is working to make it so that there is another path. But if things don't change, riders who are 20 years old today, in five years will have to make a choice: stop racing or dope.
L'EQUIPE:
Is it possible today to recognize those who'll take that step?
STEFFEN:
Even if we had a team psychologist who knew each rider intimately, who fully understood the problem of doping, I'm not sure he could know. If someone had asked me this question about Tyler Hamilton 10 or 11 years ago, I would've said: "He'll never do it. He's too honest, too well raised, too hard working... ". But that's not how it works. Unpleasant people like Lance Armstrong dope and nice people like Tyler Hamilton also dope. There's a moment when they waver. As if they don't have a choice. The only other solution would be to stop cycling. But they see themselves with a future, without a job. I think a rider with a college degree or from a family with money will be less likely to get involved in doping. But that's just a theory; Tyler Hamilton has a degree... he probably had other options. That proves that at a certain point there's something stronger that anything else that pushes a rider in (to doping). Maybe glory, maybe money.
L'EQUIPE:
Why, after all the difficulties you've endured, do you continue to work in this milieu (cycling)?
STEFFEN:
I love cycling. I've been in cycling for 26 years, since I was in college. But I promised myself something, and my wife can serve as witness: if Hamilton is declared innocent and nothing happens to Lance, I'll quit, I'll quit cycling once and for all. I'll believe there's no longer any hope. For now though, I'm optimistic. I'm a believer in using everything in the judicial arsenal to combat doping: increase the number of out-of-competition tests and better target the times they're done, freeze specimens and authorize their analysis and retrospective sanctions. And callon, when it's necessary, the police and the border controls. Above all, the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) should be completely out of this fight against doping because their is corruption there. That's my opinion, I don't have any proof, just doubts and a few rumors...
L'EQUIPE:
Aren't you a bit radical?
STEFFEN:
It's this way and only this way that we will really be able to combat doping. I'll explain something I've been told relating to certain teams in the 2005 Tour and you'll understand where this sport has gone...
L'EQUIPE:
Who told you?
STEFFEN:
Someone in the heart of a team that I can't name. Before going to the start of the Tour, the riders of certain teams, during their training camps, took EPO (which disappears from the urine within three days, even 12 hours when small doses are used) and took their hematocrits up to around 60. Then a doctor withdraws their blood, saving it in special containers, to lower their blood parameters into the accepted range (50) so that they pass without difficulty the medical controls before the Tour. Then, as the teams well know, during the race the vampires (2) can arrive any day but always between 7 and 8 in the morning. After that time, there is no more testing and the riders were able to reinject their own blood. They were racing the stage with an enormous advantage- their hemotrocrit in the 55 to 58 range during the race- then in the evening at the hotel, someone again withdraws their blood so that they sleep without risk (3) and, especially, they escape the possible tests the next morning.
L'EQUIPE:
This practice was used every evening during the three weeks of the Tour?
STEFFEN:
No, just for important stages in the mountains or maybe for a time trial. It's so simple to do and there's no risk of being caught unless the police intervene. The blood was shuttled by motorcycle in a refrigerated compartment...
L'EQUIPE:
Autotransfusions (where one injects his own blood) are indetectable. Can nothing be done to stop it?
STEFFEN:
Yes. The vampires should come take the blood samples just before the start near the start line. It's the only solution. Or otherwise, once again we must call on the police...
DOMINIQUE and JEAN ISSARTEL
(1) After the publication of his testimony about Jemison and Hamilton in an article in the Sunday Times of London in 2001 when he expressed his certainty that US Postal had begun doping, Dr. Steffen received a phone call from Armstrong in which he threatened him in the following terms (the same that he used against Greg LeMond and Mike Anderson, his former personal assistant): "I have a lot of money, good lawyers, and if you continue to talk, I'll destroy you."
(2) The UCI antidoping control officers are thus nicknamed in cycling.
(3) When certain blood parameters (hemoglobin, hematocrit) are too high, there is a real risk of blood clots due to thickening of the blood.
(4) UCI anti-doping rules saying article 135 that "a test can be carried out in competion or out-of-competition at any time and at any place without warning". In this particular case, no rider can be declared positive because autotransfusions are indetectable. But if the blood parameters are abnormal, the authorities can forbid the rider to continue the race and can impose a rest period of 15 days.0 -
mididoctors wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:cougie wrote:Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
Yes, I watch football (Arsenal fan), I'd love to see the list of names from puerto, as we all would I think. I'm sure there's widespread abuse in football, but doping control is almost non-existent and seems to focus on players using recreational drugs... The Milan lab makes me very suspicious.... I wait for the day when a few really big drugs scandals rock the sport, and hope my team isn't involved.
i can lay your mind at rest and reassure you with a degree certainity measured at about 99.9999999999999999999% it probably is
Well if we are doped we're doing a bloody poor job of it. At any given point about half the team is out injured, and forecasts of "two to three weeks out" end up being months, or in the case of Rosicky over a year... So much for faster recovery and healing :-(Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Agreed.mididoctors wrote:picking on wiggins seems unfair... But he did stick his head above the parapet.
easy have principles when you have little to lose..0 -
some of the silence is shock and the denials standard knee jerk
I'll give them a grace period... benefit of the doubt... a few weeks..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
My fave response so far has been that of Bjarne RiisFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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No tA Doctor wrote:cougie wrote:Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
Yes, I watch football (Arsenal fan), I'd love to see the list of names from puerto, as we all would I think. I'm sure there's widespread abuse in football, but doping control is almost non-existent and seems to focus on players using recreational drugs... The Milan lab makes me very suspicious.... I wait for the day when a few really big drugs scandals rock the sport, and hope my team isn't involved.
I dont get it then - you're happy to watch footy, but not cycling ? At least in cycling there are teams trying to do things the right way and with vowed clean ethics ?
If you look at @magnusbackstedts twitter feed - you'll see the chat he had with Gerard Vroomen - the guy behind Cervelo Test Team.0 -
And Wiggins was very quick to comment when Di Luca was caught, 'What a wanker' being his considered opinion.afx237vi wrote:I don't see Wiggo's silence as anything unusual in itself, but I do agree with mididoctors that the Twitter peloton in general is much quieter than normal. I can't find one rider who has even mentioned it. Compare that to when Pellizotti got done.
http://twitter.com/bradwiggins/status/2784487165
It looks a lot like the bastards are closing ranks - and Wiggins is not the most guilty here, being 'picked on' largely because of his former willingness to speak out.0 -
FFS I'm in danger of sounding like a Wiggo / Sky fanboy over the past week or two as they seem to get negative comments whatever they do but why on earth has Wiggins' name even been raised in this thread? OK, he has been outspoken on drugs before and should be applauded for that but why is he expected to comment on this issue - at present it is a bunch of unsubstantiated allegations made by a convicted PED user against several other riders from what I can tell. Any rider not directly named would be extremely foolish to get involved as, even if iyt is true that LA has said he won't take legal action, they could get dragged into allsorts of messy litigation further down.
I surprised that no-one linked the earthquake damage in Stage 12 to Sky :roll:
Have these allegations actually added anything of benefit to the reduction of the use of PEDSs? All it does is add more unsubstantiated rumour to that which was already there unless he suddenly produces some hard evidence and I can't think what hard evidence he can possible provide. I'm certainly not saying he is lying but it hasn't really added anything to the downfall of cheats whilst further tarnishing the reputation of cycling with those not regularly involved in the sport.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
And Wiggins was very quick to comment when Di Luca was caught, 'What a wanker' being his considered opinion.afx237vi wrote:I don't see Wiggo's silence as anything unusual in itself, but I do agree with mididoctors that the Twitter peloton in general is much quieter than normal. I can't find one rider who has even mentioned it. Compare that to when Pellizotti got done.
http://twitter.com/bradwiggins/status/2784487165
It looks a lot like the bastards are closing ranks - and Wiggins is not the most guilty here, being 'picked on' largely because of his former willingness to speak out.
calm down a bit... its not the same situation
there is no offical positive to respond to...
dont freak out and go all mentalist on us...
take some deep breaths and sign out for a while
you know its good for you"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
iainf72 wrote:My fave response so far has been that of Bjarne Riis
which is?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
And Wiggins was very quick to comment when Di Luca was caught, 'What a wanker' being his considered opinion.afx237vi wrote:I don't see Wiggo's silence as anything unusual in itself, but I do agree with mididoctors that the Twitter peloton in general is much quieter than normal. I can't find one rider who has even mentioned it. Compare that to when Pellizotti got done.
http://twitter.com/bradwiggins/status/2784487165
It looks a lot like the bastards are closing ranks - and Wiggins is not the most guilty here, being 'picked on' largely because of his former willingness to speak out.
Last time I checked LA has never tested positive for a banned substance,unlike Di Luca..0 -
I think if I were a pro cyclist - I'd be very wary of slagging Lance off. He is a big player and doesnt take criticism easily. Would you risk sabotaging your career for the sake of a twitter comment you made once ?0
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KillerMetre wrote:
Last time I checked LA has never tested positive for a band substance,unlike Di Luca..
you might as well yell fire in a crowded theater
WE ARE NOT HAVING THIS ONE AGAIN
we take it as read"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
cougie wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:cougie wrote:Doctor - do you watch any sport any more ? Puerto implicated racing drivers, footballers and tennis players ?
Yes, I watch football (Arsenal fan), I'd love to see the list of names from puerto, as we all would I think. I'm sure there's widespread abuse in football, but doping control is almost non-existent and seems to focus on players using recreational drugs... The Milan lab makes me very suspicious.... I wait for the day when a few really big drugs scandals rock the sport, and hope my team isn't involved.
I dont get it then - you're happy to watch footy, but not cycling ? At least in cycling there are teams trying to do things the right way and with vowed clean ethics ?
If you look at @magnusbackstedts twitter feed - you'll see the chat he had with Gerard Vroomen - the guy behind Cervelo Test Team.
See above. I don't think my team is doped. I may be naive about that, and if I'm proved wrong and it's institutionalised doping then football will be dead for me as well. Arsene Wenger has spoken out about doping before, claiming some of the players coming into the club had been doped at previous clubs. I believe him to be a man of impeccable integrity, after all he left Europe for Japan having been robbed of a title at Monaco by Marseille match-fixing.
I'm very out of touch with cycling now, but if you can give me the name of a team that is really at the forefront of anti-doping then I'll be pleased to folow them a bit :-)Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
