Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...

DaveyL

:roll:

dulldave

frenchfighter wrote:

This is good to read. This omerta is total rubbish. Anyone who has info on this Dirty Disco team of dopers from the US should come forward and take them down.

The worst thing is that he protested his innocence for so long and pleaded for people's money. He took a lot of money from people for nothing - this is ridiculous. These people must feel pretty angry and rightly so.

And of course it had all stopped in 2007 when AC won the Tour didn't it FF?

Kléber

frenchfighter wrote:

This is good to read. This omerta is total rubbish. Anyone who has info on this Dirty Disco team of dopers from the US should come forward and take them down.

The worst thing is that he protested his innocence for so long and pleaded for people's money. He took a lot of money from people for nothing - this is ridiculous. These people must feel pretty angry and rightly so.

Unlike, say, a Spanish rider? DNA evidence and all that...

Anyway, the more I see this, the more it is just a confirmation that bears visit woodland for toilet activities. Landis is just saying he's seen a bear take a crap, that he noted this in his diary and he observed other details. But everyone knows what bears do, including Texan bears, it's just getting the proof that remains the final hurdle.

The risk is this just puts dynamite under BMC and Garmin and the wrong riders are made to pay for mistakes made by others.

flattythehurdler

DaveyL wrote:

andyp wrote:

Glad to see Floyd listened to Lemond. Eventually.

+1 If he and Tyler had done this right away their lives would not, I suspect, be such a mess right now.

Actually, I disagree. I think floyd is most likely a very nice man, badly advised at times. He would have been destroyed by the PR machine if he had come clean fully (ie implicated armstrong et al) at the time, though why he didn't just admit to his own doping, and save the money he had earned is beyond me. He has obviously been completely thrown to the wolves by his ex friends, which is sad to see.

58585

Livelihoods are on the line and, unfortunately, it's been shown time and again that keeping quiet, deflecting and denying allegations is the way to go.

I just hope something positive (no pun intended) comes out if this; every time someone comes clean and is demonised it's less likely the omerta will ever be broken.

Can't help wondering what Landis would have said if he had been fingered when he was at the top of his game (prior to getting busted).

pitchshifter

Would Armstrongs backing of Floyds claim of being innocence during the Paul Kimmage questioning a way of saving his own skin?

I really hope this goes away. Quickly.

Armstrong never has been tested positive. Does he know something so many others dont on how to avoid being caught? Highly unlikely. Did he know most of his team were doped up? Most definitely.

Does any of this discredit any of his tour wins? debatable.

Floyd will come out of this worse, closely followed by cycling as a professional sport, which is a real shame.

avoidingmyphd

frenchfighter wrote:

The worst thing is that he protested his innocence for so long

He's still protesting his innocence for the +ve test in the tdf that finally nailed him.
His stance is "I can't believe I got nailed for something I didn't even do when I did all these other things and got away with them".

iainf72

pitchshifter wrote:

Armstrong never has been tested positive. Does he know something so many others dont on how to avoid being caught? Highly unlikely. Did he know most of his team were doped up? Most definitely.

No "big names" really tested positive until 2006'ish. Look at Basso and Ullrich. It doesn't take a genius to not test positive.

BikingBernie

pitchshifter wrote:

I really hope this goes away. Quickly.

I don't, and nor should anyone who is genuinely interested in the future credibility of the sport.

Let's hope that this sees the truth about Pharmstrong, which is in any case largely public knowledge already, come out in an incontestable way.

If we are dreaming it might even lead to all the corruption in the UCI being exposed as well...

Kléber

I still think the testosterone test was a blunder. He claims he learned about the patches and gels from Bruyneel but perhaps someone gave him a stronger patch or he was shattered after cracking to La Touissire and fell asleep with the patch on, thereby absorbing too much of the banned molecules?

All speculation but the test was positive and he needs to explain ways it could have happened, rather than deny it. After all, he's admitting to bigger things, not just testosterone but EPO, blood manipulation and more.

If this is about him getting stuff of his chest, then this would help.

mididoctors

what happened had too much too drink.... are these for real?

Mccaria

"He probably needed to get it off his chest. Why is he announcing it in the week of the Tour of California?" McQuaid told Reuters. "He must have an agenda."

Obviously McQuaid getting to the heart of the matter :roll:

iainf72

WSJ is Rupert Murdoch's pride and joy at the moment, isn't it?

I have a feeling this one won't go away quickly and is going to have a pretty big impact. Especially as Floyd said he's mindful of the statute of limitations - He obviously wants people punished.

AidanR

pitchshifter wrote:

I really hope this goes away. Quickly.

Armstrong never has been tested positive. Does he know something so many others dont on how to avoid being caught? Highly unlikely.

Really? What's becoming clear is that most dopers get away with it. It takes a botched programme or a moment of carelessness or desperation to get caught.

58585

Do you guys consider this a bigger deal for Armstrong than the l'equipe story?

Would Landis have made these allegations if he only has his training journals as "proof"? I guess Landis doesn't have much left but can't imagine he would want to go through the inevitable court cases knowing he was going to end up with even less.

pitchshifter

iainf72 wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

Armstrong never has been tested positive. Does he know something so many others dont on how to avoid being caught? Highly unlikely. Did he know most of his team were doped up? Most definitely.

No "big names" really tested positive until 2006'ish. Look at Basso and Ullrich. It doesn't take a genius to not test positive.

Ok. I considered this. Are we going to assume that should Armstrong of doped before, he is still at it now? 3rd in the Tour de France is not to be sniffed at.

Basso and Ulrich were the closest rivals during many of his tour wins, assuming they were all doped up (including Armstrong). Does this mean Armstrong was still the stronger man?

cougie

As others have said - 90% of us knew that the big names had doped. Now we have one of their inner circle confirming it - but he's not the most credible witness.

What I want to know is - can they STILL get away with doping ? Are they doing it now ? I'd like to think that things have cleaned up now - riders do seem far more outspoken than they were say back in 1999 when they protested at the police intrusions into the race.

I cant see much coming of it really unless they have hard evidence.

thomasmc

BikingBernie wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

I really hope this goes away. Quickly.

I don't, and nor should anyone who is genuinely interested in the future credibility of the sport.

Let's hope that this sees the truth about Pharmstrong, which is in any case largely public knowledge already, come out in an incontestable way.

If we are dreaming it might even lead to all the corruption in the UCI being exposed as well...

Bernie, quick question.
You always had an interest in exposing Armstrong for how you feel he has cheated. Do you think these e-mails will do any more damage to Lance than say the EPO allegations from the 99 tour which he has successfully brushed under the carpet?

IMO they wont!

samb01

I love it! Finally something of interest, something that matters, happening in this sport.

andyp

58585 wrote:

Do you guys consider this a bigger deal for Armstrong than the l'equipe story?

Would Landis have made these allegations if he only has his training journals as "proof"? I guess Landis doesn't have much left but can't imagine he would want to go through the inevitable court cases knowing he was going to end up with even less.

I'd say this, like the l'Equipe story, the SCA case and LA Confidentiel before it, adds yet more evidence to the fact that LA doped his way to his Tour wins.

mididoctors

think he is going to be characterized as a disgruntled loser with low credibility by the Pharmstrong camp... but then again i sense the noose tightening around the lot of them

mainly they can't do it on the bike anymore

where are their winners?

it aint lance levi or Kloden.... in danger of being cast (down from high) as jaded cheating losers living in the past..

that is exactly what they are

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Unless there is some Franco-phobic stuff in the emails, how can we be sure they're from Floyd

Vaughters must have known DZ was up to no good in the past.

JV did say his riders may or may not have doped in the past but that in his team now and in the future he wanted to keep it doping free...

Kléber

Mccaria wrote:

"He probably needed to get it off his chest. Why is he announcing it in the week of the Tour of California?" McQuaid told Reuters. "He must have an agenda."

Obviously McQuaid getting to the heart of the matter :roll:

McQuaid opens his mouth and he manages to put his foot in it almost instantly. Go back and read the Wall Street Journal article and it makes clear that the emails were sent to the UCI.

This is a story described by cyclingnews.com as a "bomb" but can it be that that someone at the UCI thought "we'll sit on this, let's not tell Pat"? Either McQuaid is out of touch with his staff or he's telling porkies. You have a massive story here that implicates some of the biggest names but no one thought to inform the boss in case things leaked out?

Above all, McQuaid is talking about an agenda and asking questions about Landis. He should be donning the white cape, be putting questions to other people - eg Bruyneel and Armstrong - and insisting on a full investigation.

FransJacques

As for LA the really big fish here, the 800 lb gorilla, the same lines with play out "I read what Floyd said but I'm the most tested and never tested positive etc". Unless FL has proof of LA doing something then it's his word against a much stronger well oiled spin machine.

It's a pity that this will overshadow the Giro and ToC. Personally I'd much rather watch racing of 50/50 clean bike riders than rehash history. What will we get out of this? Any confessions? Hardly.

Except - Danielson is 1 guy who went from wanna-be hero to zero. Almost as badly as Berzin did. Or Gabriele Columbo, Ivan Gotti etc. The juice was working then it wasn't.

RichN95.

Kléber wrote:

Exquisite timing for the leak, right in the middle of the Tour of California.

Well they want to be the 4th Grand Tour, and a GT's not a real GT without a drug scandal.

AidanR

I think there are two things that are a massive hindrance to cleaning things up:

1. There are too many people with too much at stake in the upper echelons of pro cycling to seriously clean things up. The likes of McQuaid have covered things up in the past so unless everything is swept away in a mass revolution they will always cover things up so as not to expose themselves as liars.

2. The top dopers will always win. By its very nature, testing will always be playing catch-up. Those with enough money to access the top doctors and newest techniques will almost certainly not get caught

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

They've gone ballistic over on CN's clinic. 400 posts overnight. I gave up.
One interesting point made .

That's quite a high ratio for that lot.

greeny12

Amid all the point scoring and Armstrong-baiting on here, don't forget there is a human side to this story too. Think of Landis' parents, deeply religious in a faith that they had to go against to support their son in his cycling career... now they know for sure that all his success was a sham and that he cheated his way through.

To say they must be heartbroken right now is an understatement. I can't imagine how I'd feel if my son ever did that to me...

blazing_saddles

2002: I was instructed on how to use Testosterone patches by Johan Bruyneel
during the During the Dauphine Libere in June, after which I flew on a
helicopter with Mr Armstrong from the finish, I believe Grenoble, to San
Mauritz Switzerland at which point I was personally handed a box of 2.5 mg
patches in front of his wife who witnessed the exchange. About a week
later, Dr Ferrari performed an extraction of half a liter of blood to be
transfused back into me during the Tour de France. Mr Armstrong was not
witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on
our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution
of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the
inconvenience of the new test. He also divulged to me at that time that in
the first year that the EPO test was used he had been told by Mr Ferrari,
who had access to the new test, that he should not use EPO anymore but he
did not believe Mr Farrari and contin
ued to use it. He later, while winning the Tour de Swiss, the month before
the Tour de France, tested positive for EPO at which point he and Mr
Bruyneel flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement with
Mr. Vrubrugen to keep the positive test hidden.

2003: After a broken hip in the winter, I flew to Gerona Spain where this
time two units (half a liter each) were extracted three weeks apart. This
took place in the apartment in which Mr. Armstrong lived and in which I was
asked to stay and check the blood temperature every day. It was kept in a
small refrigerator in the closet allong with the blood of Mr Armstrong and
George Hincapie and since Mr. Armstrong was planning on being gone for a few
weeks to train he asked me to stay in his place and make sure the
electricity didn't turn off or something go wrong with the referigerator.
Then during the Tour de France the entire team, on two different occasions
went to the room that we were told and the doctor met us there to do the
transfusions. During that Tour de France I personally witnessed George
Hincapie, Lance Armstrong, Chechu Rubiera, and myself receiving blood
transfusions. Also during that Tour de France the team doctor would give my
room mate, George Hincapie an
d I a small syringe of olive oil in which was disolved andriol, a form of
ingestible testosterone on two out of three nights throughout the duration.

I was asked to ride the Vuelta a Espana that year in support of Roberto
Heras and in August, between the Tour and the Vuelta, was told to take EPO
to raise my hematocrit back up so more blood transfusions could be
performed. I was instructed to go to Lances place by Johan Bruyneel and get
some EPO from him. The first EPO I ever used was then handed to me in the
entry way to his building in full view of his then wife. It was Eprex by
brand and it came in six pre measured syringes. I used it intravenously for
several weeks before the next blood draw and had no problems with the tests
during the Vuelta. Also during this time it was explained to me how to use
Human Growth Hormone by Johan Bruyneel and I bought what I needed from Pepe
the team "trainer" who lived in Valencia along with the team doctor at that
time. While training for that Vuelta I spent a good deal of time training
with Matthew White and Michael Barry and shared the testosterone and EPO
that we had and discu
ssed the use thereof while training.

Again, during the Vuelta we were given Andriol and blood transfusions by the
team doctor and had no problems with any testing.

2004: Again the team performed two seperate blood transfusions on me, but
this time Bruyneel had become more paranoid and we did the draws by flying
to Belgium and meeting at an unknown persons appartment and the blood was
brought by "Duffy" who was at that time Johans assistant of sorts. The
second of which was performed on the team bus on the ride from the finish of
a stage to the hotel during which the driver pretended to have engine
trouble and stopped on a remote mountain road for an hour or so so the
entire team could have half a liter of blood added. This was the only time
that I ever saw the entire team being transfused in plain view of all the
other riders and bus driver. That team included Lance Armstrong, George
Hincapie and I as the only Americans.

2005: I had learned at this point how to do most of the transfusion
technicals and other things on my own so I hired Allen Lim as my assistant
to help with details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare
the transfusions for Levi and I and made sure they were kept at the proper
temperature. We both did two seperate transfusions that Tour however my
hematocrit was too low at the start so I did my first one a few days before
the start so as to not start with a deficit.

2006: Well you get the idea....... One thing of great signigicance is that
I sat down with Andy Riis and explained to him what was done in the past and
what was the risk I would be taking and ask for his permission which he
granted in the form of funds to complete the operation described. John
Lelangue was also informed by me and Andy Riis consulted with Jim Ochowitz
before agreeing.

There are many many more details that I have in diaries and am in the
process of writing into an intelligible story but since the position of USA
Cycling is that there have not been enough details shared to justify calling
USADA, I am writing as many as I can reasonably put into an email and share
with you so as to ascertain what is the process which USA Cycling uses to
proceed with such allegations.

Look forward to much more detail as soon as you can demonstrate that you can
be trusted to do the right thing.

Floyd Landis
__________________

cougie

Was it a sham ? He doped in a pro sport where all the other big contenders doped.
You could probably count on the fingers of two hands the number of clean riders in the peleton.

I'd have more respect for him if he'd come clean straight away, rather than deny deny deny and then come out with it years later.