Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...

iainf72

Liggett has tweeted.

*shakes head*

Even if there was proof he's still not believe it.

timoid.

RichN95 wrote:

While much has been said on here about what FL has written, and all the people his implicated, including almost every major US cyclist at USP, there's one person who doesn't get mentioned in the e-mail.

A former US Postal teammate of FL's and a Girona resident - Christian Vande Velde

Maybe he's been clean all along.

But VdV was left out in the cold by Armstrong after 99. Landis may not have had too much contact with him. His team history would indicate a high probability that he has not been straight all his career.

I do think that he's clean now though.

gabriel959

Loving all the twitter denial - just had a go at lance's minion number 3669 - @PhilLiggett

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

Liggett has tweeted.

*shakes head*

Even if there was proof he's still not believe it.

"Well. It's easy to name names, now let's see the proof and then I'll have a comment."

http://twitter.com/philliggett

What a tool... :roll:

I am glad that I have never actually seen the Sherwin / Liggett 'Armstrong appreciation society' in action.

gabriel959

The worse bit is not Phil himself or his mate Paul, its all the minions who agree wholeheartedly!!

http://twitter.com/#search?q=%40PhilLiggett

BikingBernie

gabriel959 wrote:

Loving all the twitter denial - just had a go at lance's minion number 3669 - @PhilLiggett

A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point.

We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defences with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks.

But man’s resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his convictions then ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervour about convincing and converting other people to his view.

When Prophecy Fails. Festinger, Rieken and Schacter (1956).

cotti

This could go on longer than the DFS Sale...

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Liggett has tweeted.

*shakes head*

Even if there was proof he's still not believe it.

"Well. It's easy to name names, now let's see the proof and then I'll have a comment."

http://twitter.com/philliggett

BB say it isn't so. You're getting soft in your old age. Then again your definition of PROOF
is just a little different than mine. Or so it would seem. In any case this would seem to be the story of the moment. Where will it lead and how will it end? Bang or whimper?? It's got my interest peaked. What other twists, turns, conspiracies and the like will surface?

BikingBernie

Landis goes on the defensive. I wonder if certain people have been having a 'chat' with him?

---

Landis Responds: Says Someone Leaked His Private E-mail

Posted by Neil Browne on 5/20/2010 at 12:00AM
Pick A Side
Fire It Up

I spoke to Floyd Landis exclusively this morning regarding the shocking e-mail that was received by several media outlets. In the e-mail, Landis accuses several current marquee riders, one being Lance Armstrong, of doping practices dating to 2002. The first thing Landis said to me was that he never distributed that e-mail to the media outlets. It was leaked, he claims, without his knowledge.

According to Landis, the original purpose of the leaked e-mail was to admit to doping and to demonstrate to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) how drug doping was accomplished without detection. Landis claims he included others because he was trying to negotiate amnesty for himself and the riders named before supplying the dopers' regimen to USADA.

Talking about the leaked e-mail, Landis said, "I would have preferred that it had stayed private and the result of me coming clean (with this information) would be for the purpose of better doping controls so future generations of riders would not have to make the same decisions I had to make."

Landis went on to say that Armstrong had heard about previous e-mail exchanges between Landis and USA Cycling officials regarding his claims of doping. In an attempt to silence Landis after the Tour of Gila, Landis claims Armstrong called Dr. Kay, Landis' good friend and title sponsor of his current team, and made veiled threats about revoking Dr. Kay's doctor's license for misdiagnosing Landis' mental health.Landis' response was to say he should take aim at Landis himself and not his friends.

Landis replied to Armstrong via e-mail requesting that he not involve his friends but instead attempt to resolve the matter in court. In an e-mail sent May 5, Landis wrote:

"As you certainly know I've been living with a very complex situation for the last four years and have been, for my own sake and for the sake of my former friends and peers, misleading the public about the truth about performance enhancing drug use in cycling about which I have first-hand knowledge. My only goal in enlightening the public and the press regarding these matters is to clear my conscience and thereafter be able to sleep at night.

Landis says the e-mail leaked yesterday is the first action taken since Landis sent his e-mail to Armstrong.

http://www.versus.com/blogs/2010-cyclin ... s-advance/

iainf72

This bit from the ESPN interview is quite good

“I don’t feel guilty at all having doped,” Landis told ESPN.com. “I did what I did because that’s what we (cyclists) did and it was a choice I had to make after 10 years or 12 years of hard work to get there, and that was a decision I had to make to make the next step.”

When you look at Hincapie's comments in that context, it may as well be an admission

skavanagh.bikeradar

You won't shift some people's opinions/stances:
http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/evidence-based-smear-campaigns/

I'm sure you get the gist in the context of this thread/these revelations.

timoid.

To be fair not everything Floyd says should be taken as gospel. Unless he's got some proof, Armstrong et al need not worry about official sanction.

What it will do to Armstrong's image in America is another matter though.

I also have a problem with the fact that many riders who have cleaned up their act (DaveZ, Michael Barry) and are doing things the right way and ushering in a bright(er) future for the sport are now going to go down with the unrepentant cheats (in the public eyes at least). JVs policy of education and clean improvement may be completely derailed by this.

BikingBernie

dennisn wrote:

your definition of PROOF is just a little different than mine. Or so it would seem.

On the subject of proof Dennis, sorry PROOF, why do you think it is that so many Americans believe in 'God' to the degree they will go out and kill in 'his' name, even though there is no proof that such a deity/ sky fairy/ person is real, and when all the available evidence indicates that 'God' does not actually exist?

DaveyL

Oh well, at least a few more folk will be watching the Tour of California this evening. Maybe FF will even take an interest in the race.

Kléber

BikingBernie wrote:

A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point....
When Prophecy Fails. Festinger, Rieken and Schacter (1956).

Cognitive dissonance seems to be how some at the UCI work.

How many people after Landis do they need. Sinkiwitz, Kohl, Jaksche, I could name so many others who have tried to blow the whistle, they've even used a foghorn, but still McQuaid won't listen.

iainf72

Doesn't this remind everyone in a way of Manzano?

And over the years he was proved right again and again. Except for Valverde of course.

BikingBernie

I really hope that others are willing to step forward and back up what Landis is saying. If they don't he will be destroyed and nothing will change. Again...

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

your definition of PROOF is just a little different than mine. Or so it would seem.

On the subject of proof Dennis, sorry PROOF, why do you think it is that so many Americans believe in 'God' to the degree they will go out and kill in 'his' name, even though there is no proof that such a deity/ sky fairy/ person is real, and when all the available evidence indicates that 'God' does not actually exist?

Easy now big fella. What's with the Americans thing? I thought we were talking about
doping in cycling and, well, what going to happen next? :? :? I think Landis has a tell all book coming out and this is sort of a lead up to it. However, I was somewhat shouted
down when I expressed this view earlier.

pitchshifter

Whats Johans Twitter about??

Kléber

I'm with Dennis. There's no doping in cycling. Guys like Manzano, Simeoni, Kohl, Chiotti, Bassons, Jaksche and all the rest are just trying to drum up advance PR for their books.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

I'm with Dennis. There's no doping in cycling. Guys like Manzano, Simeoni, Kohl, Chiotti, Bassons, Jaksche and all the rest are just trying to drum up advance PR for their books.

Good shout K.

How many of them wrote books?

DaveyL

Hasn't Floyd already got a book out? Is this one the sequel?

Kléber

Oh they are all at it, some have become literary greats. Bassons is a darling of Parisian salons. Jaksche is quoted alongside Gunter Grass these days, he's possibly the leading light of German-language literature. He's flourishing.

Pokerface

Does anyone else get the feeling that BikingBernie somehow actually managed to hack Landis' email account and start this whole thing? 8)

greeny12

And Lance has just crashed out of the ToC???

Must have been distracted by something....

rundle

SpaceJunk wrote:

Hey, I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but LA didn't win the Tour de Suisse in 2002.

Alex Zülle did. LA won n 2001.

That puts a hole in Landis' claims.

Landis is referring to the 2001 race.

Read it again.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Oh they are all at it, some have become literary greats. Bassons is a darling of Parisian salons. Jaksche is quoted alongside Gunter Grass these days, he's possibly the leading light of German-language literature. He's flourishing.

Oh, excellent. Do you have any links to reviews or extracts from these books?

DaveyL

I don't think it was BB who hacked Floyd's e-mail. There was no trademark cut n paste, or references to uebermenschen and right-wing American fascists....

AidanR

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

your definition of PROOF is just a little different than mine. Or so it would seem.

On the subject of proof Dennis, sorry PROOF, why do you think it is that so many Americans believe in 'God' to the degree they will go out and kill in 'his' name, even though there is no proof that such a deity/ sky fairy/ person is real, and when all the available evidence indicates that 'God' does not actually exist?

How to make a LA doping thread more controversial? Bring religion into it too!

But realistically, media sh*t-storm aside, this won't go anywhere without proof. And that means documents or recorded discussions or photographic evidence of doping. Even others coming forwards probably wouldn't be enough.

Hell, even with documented proof nobody's ever brought down Armstrong.

Kléber

AidanR wrote:

Hell, even with documented proof nobody's ever brought down Armstrong.

Apparently a crash has just brought him down