Big fat winter power training thread

jibberjim

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Firstly, if you look at that power/weight chart giving benchmark figures for various levels of performance, my one hour and 20 minute w/kg readings are in the "Div 3 pro" section.

I'd also guess you're nearer 60kg's to 75kg right? UK races really harm the smaller rider, particularly if they also have (relatively) low 5minute power, since it's rare to find a climb that's very long so the absolute watts start to help more.

You need to go find some mountain races!

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Moral of the story is, racing isn't just about numbers

That's definitely true!

jibberjim

disgruntledgoat wrote:

It's always been said that i have a good capacity to inflict pain upon myself. Is that kind of delta between one hour power and 20 minute power unusual?

YES! Unless you have a massive AWC - which would give you very strong 1-5minute numbers which you don't have, most people with upward facing profiles would be more like 95%...

Bronzie

Bronzie wrote:

seem to remember something like "FTP = 85-95% of 20min power" has been quoted

It's actually:
FTP = 95% +/- 3% of 20-minute maximal average power
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... -sins.html

Although he does note that some can fall outside of this, I'd say your figures are stretching things............either your earlier FTP was way too low or your latest 20-min power is too high.

Was the meter zeroed before the test? Have you checked your PM calibration lately?

disgruntledgoat

You could be right, I use the KK computer which measures power as a function of rear wheel speed based on the known resistance of the turbo's roller unit. I try to ensure that the tyre pressure is constant at 100psi, as recommeded in the manual.

If it's been wrong thus far, it has at least been consistently wrong.

Bhima

@ Pokerface - didn't know you were so desperate to see my numbers mate! I've not had much time to get on here recently so sorry.

I've been having a go with a couple of PMs the last couple of days and i'm getting differing results (due to differing terrain/fatigue/using other people's bikes/etc) so I just decided that I was not going to add to this thread anymore until I got my PM (in a couple of weeks now!) and could do some solid tests.

It just seems silly to clog up the thread with numbers like Will did, especially as it's got nothing to do with FTP.

When I get it i'll be in touch, as i'll be doing some tests on Long Hill and it would be good to get your help/advice like we discussed a while ago...

Anonymous

Dunno what's happened to me but I can't do 5 mins at FTP at the moment!!

I was flying three weeks ago.

I think a throat infection may have knocked me out a bit but my legs constantly feel like lead at the moment

First race supposed to be a week next Saturday but I don't think I'll bother unless there is a rapid return to form...

phil s

I can't even consider getting on the bike for a short turbo session this evening. Been looking after my sick daughter all day and it's been knackering. Can't remember how many times I've heard Bob the Builder and Timmy Time theme tunes, and to top it all I feel achey myself now. And she flicked yogurt with mince beef at me. I'll never win a race like this :x

Bronzie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

If it's been wrong thus far, it has at least been consistently wrong.

Depends - not sure how you account for variables such as tyre temperature or roller pressure with the Kurt Kinetic trainers, but I think their quoted accuracy of +/-3% is pretty dubious. Think I'm right in saying that you need the fluid resistance unit fully warmed up for best results - again, it sounds like there are too many variables to be that reliable.

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

You could be right, I use the KK computer which measures power as a function of rear wheel speed based on the known resistance of the turbo's roller unit. I try to ensure that the tyre pressure is constant at 100psi, as recommeded in the manual.

If it's been wrong thus far, it has at least been consistently wrong.

Your 20 minute w/kg is the same as my 1 minute max w/kg!!

Either you are insanely strong, or I am insanely weak. (I'm going with me being weak, but I suspect your figures MAy be slightly off). Plus I am kinda fat.

Jeff Jones

Disgruntledgoat, you should be destroying RR fields with that sort of power. That's downright scary!

For comparison, David Millar finished third in a Tour TT with 5.2W/kg for 36min.

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... d8d59.aspx

Alex_Simmons/RST

disgruntledgoat wrote:

You could be right, I use the KK computer which measures power as a function of rear wheel speed based on the known resistance of the turbo's roller unit. I try to ensure that the tyre pressure is constant at 100psi, as recommeded in the manual.

If it's been wrong thus far, it has at least been consistently wrong.

I would be taking KK numbers with a very large grain of salt.

Time up a longish steep known hillclimb or data from a calibrated power meter would be more reliable.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Bronzie wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

seem to remember something like "FTP = 85-95% of 20min power" has been quoted

It's actually:
FTP = 95% +/- 3% of 20-minute maximal average power
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... -sins.html

Although he does note that some can fall outside of this, I'd say your figures are stretching things............either your earlier FTP was way too low or your latest 20-min power is too high.

Was the meter zeroed before the test? Have you checked your PM calibration lately?

Actually I would suggest that if it's true 20-min max power, then the ratio of FTP:20-min power is more typically 92.5+/-2.5%. The ratio range would probably be a bit higher in the case of using Hunter Allen's protocol as that includes a 5-min blowout effort just before the 20-min test.

See my follow up post on FTP testing:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... ftp-2.html

disgruntledgoat

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

You could be right, I use the KK computer which measures power as a function of rear wheel speed based on the known resistance of the turbo's roller unit. I try to ensure that the tyre pressure is constant at 100psi, as recommeded in the manual.

If it's been wrong thus far, it has at least been consistently wrong.

I would be taking KK numbers with a very large grain of salt.

Time up a longish steep known hillclimb or data from a calibrated power meter would be more reliable.

Ohhhhh but they were so good!

Does this mean that all my FTP numbers and indications of good progress are rubbish too? I've gone from really looking forward to racing well to convinced I'm gonna be crap now! I wish I hadn't bothered, I could have persisted with my delusions of adequacy!

Alex_Simmons/RST

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Does this mean that all my FTP numbers and indications of good progress are rubbish too? I've gone from really looking forward to racing well to convinced I'm gonna be crap now! I wish I hadn't bothered, I could have persisted with my delusions of adequacy!

I don't know how you are measuring progress, so I can't say.

One's desire for/enjoyment of racing should be driven by motivations other than what a power estimation suggests.

inseine

One's desire for/enjoyment of racing should be driven by motivations other than what a power estimation suggests.

I know the thread's about 2x20 and FTP but some people seem to see it as the be all and end all of cycling. I'm speaking as someone with a pityful FTP! Also I'm trying to follow Pete Reads Black Book and although some say it's out of date it's interesting that there are no workouts that equate to 2x20 type efforts. I'll tell you in a while if think it's done me any good, but i got no where with 2x20.

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Does this mean that all my FTP numbers and indications of good progress are rubbish too? I've gone from really looking forward to racing well to convinced I'm gonna be crap now! I wish I hadn't bothered, I could have persisted with my delusions of adequacy!

I would think that regardless of the actual numbers, they have gotten better using the same measurement protocol - so you have improved.

Your ACTUAL power might me lower than expected (so you don't have PRO-level power!) but that doesn't mean the results are actually closer to a Cat 4 racer.

No reason at all to be discouraged (don't change your name to DiscouragedGoat!). I would guess that especially for your weight, you have very good power. Keep training the way you are training and you'll see the results - probably in your first race this year!

Jeff Jones

Agree with Pokerface - if you're consistently improving, that's the main thing. I hope that the KK rollers are at least good for measuring that.

Bronzie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I've gone from really looking forward to racing well to convinced I'm gonna be crap now!

Sorry if I've pi55ed on your chips, but I was just pointing out that your numbers were pretty screwy. Do you actually have a powermeter you can access to back up the trainer guesstimations?

Let's face it, you don't need numbers to know when you are going better - get out and ride and see how you feel.

inseine

Let's face it, you don't need numbers to know when you are going better - get out and ride and see how you feel.

That's what i was thinking, but I guess the numbers give you a psychological boost.

Bronzie

inseine wrote:

That's what i was thinking, but I guess the numbers give you a psychological boost.

Only when they keep going up

inseine

Only when they keep going up

There meant to go up? That's the problem, i never seem to get any better at them :oops:

LikeUStoleIt

hello.

i just did my second FTP determination as a joe friel-style CP30/LTHR test, and got an average of 277W, which was up from 262W achieved about a month ago, so i'm pretty pleased with that!

using the FTP = 95% of CP30 rule, that gives an FTP of 263W. i'm 68kg which gives a W/kg of 3.87.

what i found interesting was that my LTHR was the same as in the previous test (175bpm), so if i hadn't had access to power numbers then i would have assumed that i hadn't progressed with my fitness in the last month.

to me, this really emphasises what a useful tool power is to gauge progress!

cheers.

Anonymous

I'm still sh1te.

Alex_Simmons/RST

LikeUStoleIt wrote:

what i found interesting was that my LTHR was the same as in the previous test (175bpm), so if i hadn't had access to power numbers then i would have assumed that i hadn't progressed with my fitness in the last month.

That's because HR is not a measure of fitness. It's only an indicator of intensity of effort.

Nice work on power progress.

jibberjim

I'm in Lanzarote "training" - well more accurately riding around. I did the first 22 minutes of a climb following a wheel at what I thought was threshold - 310watts, and then took off for 12 minutes at 365watts, feeling good the whole time, so there's reasonable indication that my FTP may be a little up from the 310 I had before, although I'm biassed to shorter durations...

Also managed new 5 minute power record on day 6 of successive 250 TSS days which was an all out 5 minute test from fresh which came in at 434 watts. or around 5.9 w/kg which I'm pretty pleased with, even if good 5 minute power will rarely win races around here, hopefully I shouldn't get dropped on the hills though.

Bronzie

jibberjim wrote:

Also managed new 5 minute power record on day 6 of successive 250 TSS days which was an all out 5 minute test from fresh which came in at 434 watts. or around 5.9 w/kg which I'm pretty pleased with, even if good 5 minute power will rarely win races around here, hopefully I shouldn't get dropped on the hills though.

Impressive numbers jibberjim..........just out of interest, what is your CTL running at to be able to ride 6 days back-to-back at 250TSS?

I'm up in the 90's at the minute but that sort of training load would leave me in a box for the next couple of weeks.

Jeff Jones

Ditto - isn't that what Tour de France riders do?

I've done that sort of thing in the past. The most extreme was doing four Belgian kermises + ride to and from start + a 240km ride to watch a Tour stage + a few easy days. All in the space of eight days.

I was flying by the end of it, then got sick and was written off for the rest of the season :roll:

jibberjim

Bronzie wrote:

Impressive numbers jibberjim..........just out of interest, what is your CTL running at to be able to ride 6 days back-to-back at 250TSS?

Came in at 97, so obviously now a lot more - just did day 7 of it too btw, including the end of day sprints (they seem to have become a tradition, and so far I've always managed to beat the 50kg fiance and her 750watts today was within 5% of best ever despite no sprint practice at all)

My power isn't at all down, and the IF is still solid (0.78 today) despite the long blustery descents where power isn't an option. Last year I did the Pearson 5-day (similar daily TSS) and followed that up on day 6 with a 3mile Running Race PB, and day 7 I set a 1 hour NP power record in the SL Kitsmead Handicap, although was taken out in a crash when top 7 cruising a few hundred meters from the line. I do surprisingly well on big periods and repeated work - have other similar periods, although no power meter for those.

Monitoring over-reaching etc. is being done by watching for any inability to continue to meet "normal" power targets for any duration. Much as you would reps in a single session.

Jeff - what was the nature of your sickness, and Bronzie what more specifically would put you in the box?

Bronzie

jibberjim wrote:

Bronzie what more specifically would put you in the box?

Being (just) the "wrong" side of 40 probably doesn't help - recovery is not what it once was.

But for instance, I did L5 turbo intervals last Friday (TSS 128), a fairly quick group ride Saturday (266) and a long steady solo ride Sunday (214). My legs felt pretty heavy Monday and I doubt I could have done much more than the 1hr at low L4 that I did that evening (another 90). Just can't imagine putting in solid days at 250 without it causing me big problems.

That said, I did LeJog in 2005 which was 11 days of 6 hrs average which would have racked up a pretty big TSS. I got a stomach bug in the last 3 days though and that took me a good 3 weeks to get over.

Jeff Jones

jibberjim wrote:

Jeff - what was the nature of your sickness, and Bronzie what more specifically would put you in the box?

I think it was bad sinusitis or some kind of viral infection - I lost my hearing for a while. I wasn't the only one who had it either. I came out of it after a few weeks but by that stage it was the end of July and I had no form for the rest of the season, which for me finished early September.

That was 10 years ago and at the time represented a real peak for me. I thought I'd never get that fit again. But I subsequently went back to Belge and got better results using a more sensible approach, ie no more than 1 race a week!

I should have a number to add to this thread tomorrow...