Big fat winter power training thread

Bhima

jibberjim - not sure about 400 W mate. Where did you get that from?

Pokerface wrote:

That's because:

A. you don't get enough resistance on rollers to produce higher wattages and
B. faster cadence does NOT always equal higher power.

A. This is a myth. There's loads of resistance on my rollers, for efforts of 2 minutes or more and my rollers are considered to be "easy" compared to others.
B. I did the climb at a VERY high cadence. Waiting to get the exact numbers back, but other tests on rollers show that I can keep power levels up at higher cadences for longer than grinding big gears. This is the opposite for others. I think mentally, I can suffer more at the higher cadences because I prefer them (despite the inefficiency), while others prefer the other way round.

Pokerface

But Bhima - you said your numbers on the road for 10 minutes were much higher than on rollers. SO WHAT WERE THEY?

Pokerface

Bhima wrote:

jibberjim - not sure about 400 W mate. Where did you get that from?

Pokerface wrote:

That's because:

A. you don't get enough resistance on rollers to produce higher wattages and
B. faster cadence does NOT always equal higher power.

A. This is a myth. There's loads of resistance on my rollers, for efforts of 2 minutes or more and my rollers are considered to be "easy" compared to others.

Yeah - but you kind of proved MY point that you get higher power outputs on the road vs rollers because there isn't ENOUGH resistance on rollers - just by your results (which you seem to have 'lost").

EKIMIKE

All I want to know is who will sign up Bhima on the Pro Tour. Or have BC got his signature?

:roll:

Bronzie

freehub wrote:

today I only averaged 187W, I know I'd be able to have done like 220 but I was doing 2up with the lass next to me

Fair play if you can generate any power at all while performing a position from the Kama Sutra

freehub wrote:

The only explanation I can think of is those turbos fcuk with the mind.

+1,000,000

Pokerface

24 hours later and still waiting Bhima. C'mon....spill!

disgruntledgoat

Pokerface wrote:

24 hours later and still waiting Bhima. C'mon....spill!

This is what annoys me about stuff like this. The rest of use use this as a motivational tool to track progress through the winter. I presume we're all working hard at it (I know I am!) and he just comes on and spouts any old nonsense he fancies.

Anyway, i'm coming off the back of an easy week, going to do the FTP test for March next week, but I had a 20 minute best effort last night worked out at 6.2 w/kg! I'm starting to feel good about that first race now!

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

24 hours later and still waiting Bhima. C'mon....spill!

The rest of use use this as a motivational tool to track progress through the winter....

I had a 20 minute best effort last night worked out at 6.2 w/kg!

DG - you don't need any further motivation if you are pulling numbers like that! In fact - I would like you to stop posting numbers like that as it's making me feel immensely inadequate and you are DE-motivating me!! :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

disgruntledgoat

Pokerface wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

24 hours later and still waiting Bhima. C'mon....spill!

The rest of use use this as a motivational tool to track progress through the winter....

I had a 20 minute best effort last night worked out at 6.2 w/kg!

DG - you don't need any further motivation if you are pulling numbers like that! In fact - I would like you to stop posting numbers like that as it's making me feel immensely inadequate and you are DE-motivating me!! :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

:oops: Sorry! :P That's for 20 minutes when completely fresh though, not often you'll be able to reproduce that in a race. What's struck me on the KK power curve is the non-linear relationship between speed and power. EG, on the final 10s sprint on the CTS Road Race DVD, my best effort is a 948w average. Last time out i was 3kph slower for that final 10s, but 100w down! the amount of watts it requires to generate a small amount of extra speed as you ramp up is incredible.

phil s

6.2 w/kg for 20mins???? At my race weight that would work out to about 420w and I'd most likely be a pro cyclist. Are you sure you got that number right?
To give you an example, Chris Anker Sorensen managed 399 for 20 mins up Ventoux in the TdeF.

disgruntledgoat

phil s wrote:

6.2 w/kg for 20mins???? At my race weight that would work out to about 420w and I'd most likely be a pro cyclist. Are you sure you got that number right?
To give you an example, Chris Anker Sorensen managed 399 for 20 mins up Ventoux in the TdeF.

Ummm, you know how I laid into Bhima before folks? I take it back, that number was my Max Power for the 20 minutes, I'd read teh wrong colum on my spreadsheet! Profuse aplogies kids. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Actual number was 5.7. The difference between me and Chris Anker Sorenson is hta th ehad 3 weeks of Tour De France in his legs. If he'd have gone up the Ventoux and taken a 20 minute max after 5 days on an easy week and starting at the bottom of the climb, i'd be willing to bet that number would be much higher.

Pokerface

5.7 w/KG is still massively impressive for 20 minutes.


(Bows head in shame)

phil s

Those are still great numbers, dude. Are you Elite/Cat 1? I haven't done a test in ages, may do one today if I feel up to it. I'd be chuffed with 1w per kg less than that.

disgruntledgoat

phil s wrote:

Those are still great numbers, dude. Are you Elite/Cat 1? I haven't done a test in ages, may do one today if I feel up to it. I'd be chuffed with 1w per kg less than that.

Former Cat 2 (back in 2007 now!), fair to middling cat 3 these days. I've always had that sort of power over a longer period but 2 things have always let me down as far as racing goes.

Firstly, if you look at that power/weight chart giving benchmark figures for various levels of performance, my one hour and 20 minute w/kg readings are in the "Div 3 pro" section. My 5 minute, 1 minute and 10s outputs are all in the cat 4/5 region! Makes getting in breaks and building a lead very difficult!

Secondly, I have big problems with confidence and the mental side of my game during races. Take a 10m TT for example. I'm fine until I start, then I spend the next 5 minutes thinking "i can't do this". Road races I bimble around the back of the bunch more often than not because i've hurt myself badly in crashes in the past and am scared to fight for wheels.

Moral of the story is, racing isn't just about numbers

phil s

True. Are you self-trained or do you have a coach? A good coach will help you in many more ways than just emailing you a training plan to follow. And training is also about practising scenarios that might occur in races, not just going and banging out a big number.
I am back to Cat 3 this year having been on course for Cat 1 in 2008 - was a new dad last season and couldn't get my sh1t together. Interestingly, before I had a powermeter I always talked myself out of being able to put down high power for longer than 5 mins. The pm really helped me get my numbers up and I realised that you almost always feel rank at some point during a long effort but it's just a mental wall and you more often than not break through it.
Good luck with the season and with those numbers if you do get away you should stay away.

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

phil s wrote:

Those are still great numbers, dude. Are you Elite/Cat 1? I haven't done a test in ages, may do one today if I feel up to it. I'd be chuffed with 1w per kg less than that.

Former Cat 2 (back in 2007 now!), fair to middling cat 3 these days. I've always had that sort of power over a longer period but 2 things have always let me down as far as racing goes.

Firstly, if you look at that power/weight chart giving benchmark figures for various levels of performance, my one hour and 20 minute w/kg readings are in the "Div 3 pro" section. My 5 minute, 1 minute and 10s outputs are all in the cat 4/5 region! Makes getting in breaks and building a lead very difficult!

Secondly, I have big problems with confidence and the mental side of my game during races. Take a 10m TT for example. I'm fine until I start, then I spend the next 5 minutes thinking "i can't do this". Road races I bimble around the back of the bunch more often than not because i've hurt myself badly in crashes in the past and am scared to fight for wheels.

Moral of the story is, racing isn't just about numbers

I hope I can race against you one day. And taunt you mercilessly into submission until you retire from the back of the bunch.

Then my 3w/kg will pay off.

LikeUStoleIt

hiya.

as a newbie to power-training, this thread makes some great reading with some very interesting advice, so thanks to all the contributors.

i have a quick question regarding power and pedal systems which i hoped someone might be able to help with.

i did my first ever power test as a joe friel-style CP30 test about a month ago, and got 262W average power for the 30 minutes, which approximates to an FTP of 249W.

i did this test using shimano SPD MTB pedals, but have since shifted to using proper SPD-SL road pedals which obviously have a much bigger contact area, and i bought some nice new specialized shoes with carbon soles.

what i have noticed is that my 2 x 20 at FTP workouts (ie around 250W) have seemed pretty easy, too easy really, whcih has made me doubt the results of the FTP test.

having said that, i'm pretty confident that the test results were good- i followed a very similar HR schedule for the 30 minutes based on a LTHR test done just before christmas.

so this makes me think that the only explanation could be that the bigger pedals/new shoe combination are simply better for power transfer than the smaller SPDs?

has anyone ever experienced or heard about this kind of thing before? are bigger pedals and stiffer shoes just more efficient?

thanks!

phil s

Mate, I'd re-test with your new set-up. 2x20s should have no element of easy in their description.

Pokerface

^---- What he said.


If it doesn't hurt, you ain't doing it hard enough.


And make sure to have 2 tablespoons of olive oil afterwards. Sorted. :P

LikeUStoleIt

^

---

haha! that's what i was scared of!

i figured from reading this thread that 2x20 should be a workout to be feared.

i have a down week scheduled next week, so will re-do the CP30 test and report back.

cheers!

DaveyL

I dunno - I thought that all 2x20s are equal, but some are more equal than others...

i.e. there's a reasonably sizeable window of %age FTP you can do them at and still get a decent benefit, ranging from the lower end where it will obviously be uncomfortable but not utterly vile, to the top end of the range where your last pedal stroke is literally almost that.

Pokerface

DaveyL wrote:

i.e. there's a reasonably sizeable window of %age FTP you can do them at and still get a decent benefit, ranging from the lower end where it will obviously be uncomfortable but not utterly vile, to the top end of the range where your last pedal stroke is literally almost that.

+1 - but they still hurt

DaveyL

Hell, even solid endurance pace hurts for me at the moment...

a_n_t

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Moral of the story is, racing isn't just about numbers

Amen brother.

inseine

Moral of the story is, racing isn't just about numbers

Been racing for 30 years, mainly as a 2nd cat and the only time I had my threshold tested I managed 240w! Doubt I can hit that now. 30 years of wheel sucking I guess.

Bronzie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Actual number was 5.7.

So you've gone from an FTP of 346W at start of the month to doing 20 mins at 420W - that's top end L5 territory (120% FTP) - most impressive! I struggle to do 5 mins at 120% FTP.

disgruntledgoat

Bronzie wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Actual number was 5.7.

So you've gone from an FTP of 346W at start of the month to doing 20 mins at 420W - that's top end L5 territory (120% FTP) - most impressive! I struggle to do 5 mins at 120% FTP.

Lost a kilo this month as well though, that may have some bearing.

It's always been said that i have a good capacity to inflict pain upon myself. Is that kind of delta between one hour power and 20 minute power unusual? I do feel that I'm much stronger than i was a month ago though, i've dialled back the gym work a bit in preparation for racing and feel like i've turned a bit of a corner. I do hope i'm not coming over all Bhima!

I'm going to revisit my 1 Hour power next wednesday, so we'll see how that works out.

a_n_t

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I do hope i'm not coming over all Bhima!

.

:shock:

thanks mate, thats an image I didn't want to think about!

Bronzie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Is that kind of delta between one hour power and 20 minute power unusual?

Maximal 20 min power can have a significant anaerobic content, which could presumably be more marked given that you were fresh. That's why Alex frowns on Hunter Allen's 20-min test protocol in "Racing and Training with a Powermeter" as the contribution from anaerobic energy can vary quite a bit between individuals - seem to remember something like "FTP = 85-95% of 20min power" has been quoted

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I do hope i'm not coming over all Bhima!

Not at all - it's interesting to bandy some numbers around - also explains why I have such a hard time in 3/4 races with my 3.6W/kg when there are guys like you in the mix

disgruntledgoat

I find stuff like this quite interesting, especially as now I've learned that my HR is not the be-all and end all of performance, rather it's a measure of how my CV system is reacting to what i'm doing.

Eg. last nights 20 minute effort started off at 86% MHR, was up to 89% MHR within 3 minutes and stayed between 89 and 91% for most of the 20 minutes before getting up to 91/92% for the last 5.

Now, were I running a 1 hour test or 2x20 or 3x15 session. I'd be a lot more cautious. I'd probably be starting off at that 346w +/- 5% and try and keep the HR at about 87/88%, becasue I know that at the same speed/ gear + cadence/ power output, it's going to drift upwards as I go on.